 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-09 01:00
btw, it's part of a good article about Michael Rusinek playing the Copland Concerto.
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2005-08-09 04:02
My first guess was the "two-bit carney hypnotist" from "The Natural." Guess I was wrong.
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-08-09 04:09
I frankly don't give a tinercker's cuss if someone like Simeon Bellison reckons vibrato is bad and should not be used by wind players.
So long as it's used judiciously I don't even mind it on the clarinet ... the wonderful London Symphony Orchestra (many of the British orchestras, for that matter) clarinetists use it sparingly and to beautiful effect.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: ned
Date: 2005-08-09 06:41
Not for jazz it ain't. Classical folk in the red corner - jazz folk in the blue corner.
There should be no more to say on the topic, it's been discussed endlessly.
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Author: ned
Date: 2005-08-09 10:02
''Keep the endlessness coming..........''
And the need to is..............
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-08-09 10:07
I'll tell my sister that. She's in a wheelchair thanks to diabetes.
I'm usually the last person to worry about political correctness, but I do find that quote rather offensive.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-08-09 11:47
A very well written and informative article which probably establishes the date of the start of the still existing bias against the technique. The photo of Simeon Bellison( I had thought it was Simon for a long time) is still one my earliest clarinet images that always began my practice sessions. It is amazing how this one man's bias affected the 'clarinet fraternity". I don't agree that "enough has been written about" the subject. Trying to change the clarinet fraternity's attitude about it is probably as challenging as getting everyone to accept Evolution as fact. Eliminating diabetes, I hope, has a better chance of success.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2005-08-09 12:08
Bob Draznik wrote,
>Eliminating diabetes, I hope, has a better chance of success. >
Yes. Bellison probably used hyperbole to get attention, but I'm guessing he wouldn't have used that particular phrase if he'd lost a relative or a friend to diabetes. I own Bellison's editions of Klosé and Lazarus, but the quotation alone is enough to make me not want to read anything else by him, a few years after my uncle, a fine professional organist, died of that horrible disease. Too bad, because the essay sounds worth reading otherwise (even though I think telling clarinet players they should never use vibrato is ridiculous).
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-09 12:35
It absolutely wouldn't be "politically correct" today, but it wasn't published using today's morays.
Post Edited (2005-08-09 21:22)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2005-08-09 13:08
Rusinek would be lost on a violin for sure....
David Dow
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2005-08-09 13:39
Perhaps Banting and Best weighed in on the issue.
I have not used vibrato when performing peripheral arterial bypass surgery on diabetic extremities, but I would not hesitate to do so if I thought it would help.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-08-09 13:39
It should perhaps be pointed out that Bellison doesn't tell players never to use vibrato. The article actually says:
"As a musician with a European background, I play without vibration. But at times I hear--or feel--a few seconds of vibration as I play. This happens in romantic music, where the expression of a delicate phrase in a love scene takes my mind off other matters. This vibration, however, is entirely different. It is natural and comes from my heart and soul. It disappears as mysteriously as it came."
If we look beyond the flowery prose, the self-importance and the insensitivity to human feelings, it turns out that Bellison is making a valid point.
He isn't saying, "Never use vibrato". He is saying that continuous vibrato is bad. Occasional use of vibrato as a means of expression is fine.
He's right, too.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2005-08-09 14:07
We're lucky we still have the choice of playing or not playing a vibrato.
Try to make it into the real world with a vibrato on the clarinet, you can, just look at Stolzman.
Try to make it into the real world without a vibrato on the violin, forget it!
Vibrato is one of many tools one can use and I always felt one should learn how to master it.
I never did and sometimes wish I could. When being coached chamber music, my fellow string players are often asked to go easy on the vibrato to match my sound, but I was never asked to put in a vibrato to match them. Why should they do all the work?
There are also some works that specifically ask for vibrato Glinka trio for example.
To me it's just like double/triple tonguing, continuous breathing and multiphonics. We have entered a time where these techniques are going to be required of us. Learn to master and worry about *when* to use them in order to communicate *music* better.
-S
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Kevin
Date: 2005-08-09 15:05
The reason vibrato is more acceptable in Klezmer and jazz music, Rusinek says, is "maybe because it's more directly connected to the vocal tradition. When you listen to Klezmer clarinet players, they are so vocal, it's like singing or speaking or telling a story. Jazz is the same way."
Um interesting. What about operatic and/or bel canto singing? Does that mean Rusinek would play vibrato if you put him in an opera pit?
And I suppose classical music can't tell stories?
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-08-09 15:26
I have now read the article referenced by GBK and am not sure what to make of it. First of all the preface says that the article was found among Bellison's papers following his death. So it says. If Bellison did in fact write it was it in final draft ready to publish? Was he serious? The tone of the article is such that I am not convinced he was ....serious. Perhaps it was his joke. If he was serious then it would behoove us to remember what "the establishment" said and did when Rock And Roll arrived on the scene.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-08-09 15:39
During the 17th and 18th centuries, 'vibrato' was a distinct ornament, often performed by shaking a finger over an open hole to subtly change the pitch, especially on long notes incorporated with the messa da voce, a crescendo-diminuendo ornament. It was considered an expressive device to be used as tastefully as possible.
The problem comes with using vibrato indiscriminately, thereby negating the expressive effects of the device. I would personally think advocating using no vibrato on the clarinet is as extreme a position as using one constantly. Vibrato is a wonderful device, but only within the bounds of adding expression to a musical passage.
What is good taste, you ask? You'll know it when you hear it.
Best regards,
Mary Vinquist
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-08-09 15:39
I doubt it. My dad died of complications from diabetes at age 57 --- I wish he had used vibrato instead.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-08-09 15:52
Bellison was one of the great players, and anything he says has to be taken seriously. Still, he retired in 1948 http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Study/Bellison.html, the year Copland completed his Clarinet Concerto. http://www.proarte.org/notes/copland2.htm.
Benny Goodman played it with a noticeable vibrato, and, although there has been a lot of argument here and on the Klarinet list about whether and how much jazz "swing" should be used, I hear Goodman using a noticeable amount, particularly in the cadenza and the finale.
Michael Rusenik may prefer to play the Copland Concerto without vibrato, and, as a major player, I'm sure he brought it off, but I think he misses an important part of what Copland wrote.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-08-09 19:16
My dad died from type 1 diabetes when he was 37 and he was a clarinet player. I wonder what he would've said. My sister is 20 and she has type 1 diabetes and she plays the flute. I just asked her what she thought and while giving a smirk she muttered, "That's stupid."
The funny thing is: Most of the time, people can choose whether or not they use vibrato, but diabetes is never a choice (especially type 1 which is juvenille onset). Type 2 is only a choice when you are glutonous to the extreme and are actually trying to get diabetes. Someone is eating 2 buckets of KFC extra crispy and they are thinking, "Man, I hope I can eat so much that I get type 2 diabetes! Yummy chicken skin, let me gobble you up." Which, why would anyone even try that?
I agree with Bellison that vibrato can be used in expression (which I've used in a few pieces and solos during parts) but that it shouldn't be used the whole time. Maybe he should've just been a bit more politically correct in saying it... oh well, for me it's too petty to get in a huge fit about.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2005-08-09 21:07
Some of classical saxophone teachers dislike certain kinds of vibrato with Saxophones since many people try to imitate Marcel Mule's vibrato, which was acceptable only with Mule's beautiful tone.
I like John Hahle.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-09 21:29
Carrie - eating fried chicken won't give you type II diabetes. Lots of regular soda can, but KFC is actually pretty low carb. Of course the extra fat gained from eating that stuff can easily comprimise the system leading to it, but the actual eating of the fried chicken won't.
Sorry to hear about your Dad. Even 60 is too young to die from it, but it certainly happens all the time. One of my Clarinet students dad's is having the severe complications that can and do occur - Robert Marcellus was similarly aflicted by it.
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-08-09 22:09
David- I was just thinking about the fat on the skin and I was kinda being stereotypical (on TV, they like to show bigger people with buckets of chicken and stuff). Yes, you are very right about soda (even diet soda can lead to sugar cravings! We all need to watch out!). So yeah, fried chicken was just the 1st thing that popped into my head.
I have to watch out because I'm at risk for type 1 because of genetics and also am overweight (which I'm slowly losing), so I don't want to get type 2. I have like a 10% chance of getting diabetes of any type. Sadly, type 2 is rising among children these days.
I know diabetes can cause poor circulation to your feet, but does it do that to your hands and wrists as well? That wouldn't be good for a clarinet player (along with all of the other complications).
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-08-09 22:13
Sylvian said:
Try to make it into the real world without a vibrato on the violin, forget it!
I think there's a few people that would disagree with this blanket statement:
Monica Hugget, Simon Standage, Lucinda Moon, Ben Dollman, Patricia Ahern, Thomas Georgi, shall I go on?
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2005-08-09 22:49
diz you are telling me that none of of these players ever use vibrato?
I find it hard to believe, but I might be wrong.
-S
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-08-09 23:03
The Copland had to be a stressful experience for Benny so maybe his vibrato was just nerves. I don't know where anyone ever got the idea that anyone ever used or advocated using vibrato all the time. The slur and staccato are not used constantly either. We don't always know if what we read anywhere is the truth. If I play a passage where one or more fingers are above the keys and I shake the clarinet slightly an observer might incorrectly believe that I'm shaking my fingrers rather than the clarinet.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-08-09 23:24
Sylvain,
See my response farther up the thread regarding vibrato as an ornament, which is what the early music violinists do.
Best regards,
Mary
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Author: hans
Date: 2005-08-10 00:36
I think the second and third paragraphs of Mary Vinquist's post represent the most elegant description of the vibrato issue that I have seen to date. Her post leaves very little room for debate, although opinions will no doubt vary on what represents good taste.
Hans
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-08-10 01:05
No of course they do, but their method of playing - in period style - dictates that they use it sparingly and only as a decorative device.
My point being - which you obviously didn't get - was that "modern" playing isn't the ONLY style that you can end up in as a performer.
Frankly, and I use Perlman here as a classic example ... the only time he doesn't pour vibrato on like syrup is when he's playing extremely fast passages where it's just impossible.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-08-10 13:09
Hi Hans,
Thanks for the kind words. Actually, I think the concept of good taste leaves lots of room for interpretation, if not debate.
Hi Diz,
When Ken and I were at Clarinet Fest in London in 1984, Alan Hacker played the Mozart. What amazed me was how tastefully and relatively sparingly the strings used vibrato. It may have been just because of the Mozart, but it was highly effective. These were modern string players with modern stringed instruments.
As I recall, from my trips to London in the early 1980s, in the concerts I attended, the strings did use vibrato much less than American orchestras do. Less Russian influence??
I'm for judicious use of vibrato and see no reason why clarinetists should not try it for effect. But then, I'm not a clarinetist,.....just an itinerant musicologist and recorder player.
Best regards,
Mary
The opinions of this writer are her own and do not reflect those of the named user.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2005-08-10 21:10
The need for endlessness? Just a personal preference.....I like to keep my options open. I don't spend 24 hours of each day weighing the pros and cons of clarinet vibrato or not......But I would expect that somewhere in the world right now someone else is thinking about it. I certainly wouldn't want them to stop because it is a waste of time. One could argue you could better spend your time in the practice room but I think you should have an intellectual side to your playing. Spend some time thinking about and discussing the art of clarinet playing. It won't hurt I guarantee it. ps. I didn't check to see if someone else has posted this exact post. I really don't care..... If I wait for an original/seminal thought before making a post, you would never hear from me. (some people would be very elated at that prospect) Looking forward to endless response. JP
Freelance woodwind performer
Post Edited (2005-08-10 21:22)
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Author: CPW
Date: 2005-08-11 00:54
"The Oboe requires vibrato so as not to sound like {a goose}"
clarinetist (incl. Marcellus)
"The clarinet requires vibrato so as not the sound like {a duck}"
oboist
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2005-08-11 05:33
I may be a "little" of topic. Anyways, it has to do with vibrato. I HATE it when people pretend to play with lots of vibrato, and then when they actually do go to play that vibrato they "faked" stayed with them.
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Author: mkybrain
Date: 2005-08-11 05:46
How would I go about pretending to play with vibrato?
Post Edited (2005-08-11 05:47)
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-08-11 05:50
Ken ... you're a voice in the crowd (like me), and a pleasant one at that.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2005-08-11 23:46
Aren't you all glad my modem died on Monday and I didn't get a new one until today, when I saw this thread...
I guess I have both diseases...I'm type 1 diabetic AND I play with vibrato on the Balkan folk music I play. I use vibrato _when the music requires it_ though, so does that make me a semi-vibratist?
Katrina
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2005-08-12 19:47
There is nothing wrong with vibrato provided it does not detract from the music...for some the problems arise with working in unisons and figurations in music which are close...however, that being said in a solo setting discriminating use of vibrato can certainly add great flair to the music.
Gervase dePEYER is a player who I have always admired in every setting in spite of the amount of people against his timbre he remains to me a great example of musicality and invidual thinking..
David Dow
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-08-13 04:54
I'm with Sylvain. The more we can learn to express our music with different techniques will only serve to make us more valuable to those that hire us. Be versatile.
When you're a professional clarinetist you are expected to be able to do as many techniques as possible on your instrument because if you can't, someone else can. I didn't learn a vibrato and wish I had. I held the attitude that it was below me somehow to play with one and I would never do it.
Learn to play as many techniques as you can, practice to be versatile and have a flexible spirit about you and you'll work more! Like I said....what you can't do, someone else can. Diva's on either side of the issue won't be appreciated as much as those that just go with the flow and play what's asked of them.
As far as the diabetes analogy.....it was just wrong and insensitive.
Respectfully,
Rebecca
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