 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: susieray
Date: 2005-07-16 23:38
Attachment: K9.jpg (110k)
Attachment: K9a.jpg (113k)
Does anyone know what this mouthpiece is made of? It's an
old Woodwind K9, but looks different than the usual black
"steel ebonite" models I've seen. It's a kind of rusty-orange
color. I assume it's a German-type mouthpiece designed for
use with a string ligature, but I have found the Rovner lig
works great on it.
It is in great condition and plays really, really well. I just wondered
what it is made of, and possibly how old it might be. I got it on ebay
with a 1935 full-Boehm Buffet A clarinet. The clarinet came with two
of these mouthpieces... the other one is almost exactly like it, but
made of wood. They are both in excellent shape, and are both stamped,
"Woodwind K9". However the wooden one also has
F. Arthur Uebel superimposed over the Woodwind stamp. When
I got them, they had waxed string in place of cork, but it was old
and falling off, so I removed it and put corks on them.
I have attached a couple of pictures of the orange one.
Sue
Post Edited (2005-07-16 23:59)
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2005-07-17 01:46
Could this be made of wood? And could it be a German or Austrian clarinet mouthpiece (if I am not mistaken the grooves are for the string).
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Author: susieray
Date: 2005-07-17 01:59
The orange one is definitely NOT wood, but I am pretty sure the other one is. And yes, as I mentioned in my original post, I do believe it was meant to be used with string.
Sue
Post Edited (2005-07-17 02:10)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-07-17 02:17
The 'orange' one is the same color as some of the 1930-ish Henton alto sax and clarinet mouthpieces I've worked on -- the material is somewhat similar to hard rubber but a bit different -- perhaps a variation on the early plastic known as Bakelite, a bit softer maybe. The Hentons use the reddish material for the body of the mouthpiece with a nickel-silver 'inlay' for the facing (and also sometimes the baffle and chamber). Frank Holton mouthpieces of similar vintage seem to use that same material.
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2005-07-17 05:05
Sumner made mouthpieces of a similar, if not the same, material. They were called the "Red Clay" models. The material is softer than rubber. Many mouthpiece friends say that it's not difficult to work with and that it actually produces a very nice sound. I have one of the red clay Sumners at home but have not had it worked on. Would be an interesting project someday I suppose!
--Michael
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-07-17 13:18
The color is reminiscent of the Parker "Big Red" fountain pens from the 30s.
Your mps look as if they are in almost perfect condition! Early-on in the history of the phenol-formaldehyde plastics there was some fanciful color work done. VanDoren still makes a "swirl' pattern mp with this red tone in it. There is probably some very specific information somewhere on your mps....but I don't have it.
Bob Draznik
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-07-17 13:19
Oh, forgot, really nice photos....and fabric.
Bob Draznik
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-07-17 14:45
General comments after further exam: They look to be in too good a condition to be old. I see no evidence that one is wood.
Bob Draznik
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Author: susieray
Date: 2005-07-17 15:18
Attachment: mpc.jpg (149k)
Attachment: two K 9s.jpg (167k)
Bob,
Those first pictures were not of the "wood" one, just front
and back views of the reddish/orange one.
Here are a couple of shots of the other mouthpiece;
actually one of these pictures is of both mouthpieces
side-by-side. In fact in the pictures it is hard to tell
for sure what the dark-brown-colored one is made of,
but it does look like wood on the inside (to me it does,
anyway). It is also in excellent shape.
It is a little different than the other; the grooves are
deeper and the tenon is longer and thicker. It will
not fit any of my clarinet barrels except the one that
came with the full-Boehm Buffet in A. So I have been
using it with that horn, and the combination seems to
work great, good sound, good intonation, etc. It is also a
tad bit longer than the other one. But the both have
"K9 Woodwind" on them. The corks are brand new
because I just put those on the other day.
Both mouthpieces came with a fairly old clarinet, in a fairly
old case, but of course they could have been stuck in there
at any time along the way, so that doesn't prove anything.
The wood one is also marked F. Arthur Uebel, which I know
is a German maker but I really don't know anything about
the history of that company; maybe someone else does?
Sue ![[happy]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley12.gif)
Post Edited (2005-07-17 16:59)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2005-07-17 16:35
Have you tried the sleeve test? Rub each mouthpiece vigorously on a cotton or wool sleeve or pantleg vigorously for a few seconds, then smell the mouthpiece. If it's rubber, you should detect a "sulphur" aroma.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: D
Date: 2005-07-17 17:13
If it smells of milk when rubbed it is an early plastic made using casein (milk protein), they used to make knitting needles from it, and the plastic is called casein formaldehyde, Galalith, Galalite or Erinoid.
http://www.deutsches-kunststoff-museum.de/optimal/eplast11.htm for brief info on casein, but there is also lots information on other early plastics if you press the red arrows underneath.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2005-07-17 17:25
They do look like perhaps the German or Austrian versions of Vandoren. Beyond that I don't have a clue. I looked in a catalogue I have and didn't see anything like them.
I wonder if the Pyne string style ligature would work with them?
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Author: susieray
Date: 2005-07-17 18:24
Jack, I had not tried the smell test, because I cannot smell. So smelling things never even enters my mind. (I had chronic nosebleeds beginning at the tender age of 4 days, and by the time I was 5 years old, the inside of my nose had been cauterized a few times....anyway, there's lots of scar tissue as a result, and I just can't smell much of anything, except maybe acetone and boiling vinegar, stuff like that.)
But getting back to the mouthpieces......I had my husband smell four different mouthpieces: the two in question, plus an old Martin Fres which I KNOW is wood, and an old hard rubber Leblanc. He says he can detect a sulfur smell on all of them except the Martin Fres. So these two K9's must have at least a certain amount of hard rubber in them, evidently. But neither of them looks anything like the usual old hard rubber; no discoloration at all. The dark brown one actually seems harder than the orange one. Whatever they are, they really do play well and I plan to hang on to both of them.
Brenda, I've never tried the Pyne string ligature so I don't know if it would work. I do know both of these mouthpieces are smaller in circumference than any other Bb mouthpieces I have, and most of the ligatures I tried on them were too loose. Even the Rovner has to be tightened as much as possible in order to get it to work. I guess I can always use a shoelace.
Sue R.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2005-07-17 19:00
Sue,
I've sent mouthpieces to the Doc (Omar Henderson) for him to analyze and he's been a gem to do testing on them. He even fixed one that was a real stinker for me. You might ask him if he knows anything about these.
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Author: Drenkier_1
Date: 2005-07-17 23:17
That looks an awful lot like the German Mouthpiece Mr Wurlitzer had at his booth at the OU Clarinet Symposium.
Kevin Collins
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Author: contragirl
Date: 2005-07-18 05:47
I was going to say that it is the same mpc that Wurlitzer had for his clarinets. It's made of a hard rubber, like the black ones. Cuz from Wurlitzer told me himself, someone forgot to cover one of the mpcs once, and it tarnished the silver keys. So he said that they are made of rubber.
It's also obviously a german mpc seeing that it has the string grooves. It should also be a different size than a normal french mpc if it were German.
--CG
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-07-19 16:12
The mouthpieces are German-style, with grooving and a raised ring for convenience in tying the reed on with string.
The orange mouthpiece is probably hard rubber. Everett Matson showed me several hard rubber mouthpieces in brilliant colors (including fluorescent yellow) used by his teacher, Robert Lindemann, when he was principal in Chicago (1923-1949). From the shape of Matson's samples, Lindemann played a German system instrument, or at least German-style reeds, since the facings were much too narrow for French-style reeds. The ones in susieray's photos, though, are French-style.
Brian Ackerman makes cast resin mouthpieces in various colors. See http://www.ackermanmusic.co.uk/resin_mouthpieces.htm
Ken Shaw
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-07-19 22:48
The fact they are marked K9 and Woodwind would seem to substantiate that they were marketed by the Woodwind Co of Wisconsin. The color is so close to that of the Parker Pen Co.'s DuoFold fountain pens from the early 1920s that I'm inclined to think there is some connection. Parker is also located in Wisconsin..... The first Parker DuoFolds were made from hard rubber in 1921...in this color. It is easy to theorize that these were made from the Parker "recipe". ( Parker also made a "safety Jack knife" prior
to the Duofold Pen and for some unknown reason the Schrade knife company currently sells a lock plade pocket knife the same color. )
Bob Draznik
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Author: kenb
Date: 2005-07-20 09:48
I've seen these mouthpieces plugged into the faces of a few German players; I've also seen them for sale, advertised as 'roter kautschuk' (sp?) - red rubber.
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