 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: linda_loo
Date: 2005-06-07 13:48
On a R-13 A Clarinet, purchased in 1992, how can you tell if the upper joint has been replaced?
I sold mine on ebay, and the buyer is asking about the upper joint. He states that because of the manner in which the serial numbers were engraved (on the UJ), it appears that they were not engraved at the factory. The numbers match those of the lower joint.
As far as I knew, this was a new clarinet (purchased at a reputable and well-known Buffet dealer)... and I do not understand what he means. I'd like to get better understanding of the engraving standards before I reply to him.
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2005-06-07 14:08
If the reputable, well- known, Buffet dealer is still in business, these would be good questions to ask the dealer.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-06-07 14:27
I always look at the serial numbers [if both joints, maybe barrel/bell as well are numbered], as on my older Selmer bass cl, a V on U J, W on L J, . There, it seems to have been beneficial, as I dont have any of the "reported sharpness" of the bottom notes. I have also heard of a * being used to indicate replacement, however, Selmer [with the model 9's {more?}] used this designation. Help, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Markael
Date: 2005-06-07 16:39
For the purpose of argument, suppose it had been replaced.
Is that necessarily a bad thing?
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Author: hans
Date: 2005-06-07 17:21
linda loo,
It seems unlikely that it would be possible to buy a joint with no serial number from Buffet.
Perhaps Buffet will confirm for you whether or not they sell unmarked joints. If they don't, the only remaining possibility is that the joint was indeed given its serial number at the factory.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: Tim P
Date: 2005-06-07 17:40
A joint needs repalced when it is so short it burns your lips.
got to love the '70s
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-06-07 17:41
Buffet DOES sell replacement joints without serial numbers.
I was recently given a discarded R13 (early 1980's vintage) that had an upper joint with 2 severe cracks - so serious that you could see into the bore. Thus the upper joint was unuseable and unrepairable. I wanted to try and save this clarinet, because the previous owner had said that before it severely cracked, it was quite a good instrument. I thought, at the very worst, it would be a good practice clarinet, or one which my students could borrow.
John Butler, through Francois Kloc, found a new replacement upper joint which was from the same production series. As it was explained to me, Buffet made slight changes in the R13 over the years, thus the keywork from an older series R13 would not transfer as easily to a newer R13 replacement piece. In addition, it was likely that the intonation would be less than acceptable.
John Butler completed the key transfer to the new replacement upper joint, restored the original factory lower joint and the finished clarinet turned out surprisingly well in tune (even John was quite surprised).
The new replacement upper joint does not have a serial number (and it doesn't really matter as I will not be selling the instrument) but the resulting playing character and intonation assured me it was from the same production series.
Comparing it to one of my other R13's (248xxx) from the same era, it plays almost identically ...GBK
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Author: crnichols
Date: 2005-06-07 18:35
When Buffet replaced my upper joint (which cracked severely), I was sent a upper joint without a serial number. I assume this is their normal practice.
Christopher Nichols
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2005-06-07 18:44
Hi Linda,
You probably cannot know for sure. The Buffet factory keeps detailed records. If you still have the instrument's serial number, you could ask the dealer who sold you the instrument to contact the factory and ask them if the upper joint had been replaced. You could also ask whether the serial numbers are hand-stamped or applied by machine. Otherwise, you presumably know it has not been replaced while you owned it and the dealer has presumably told you it was not replaced while it was in his/her hands. Buffet will probably tell you that they have no knowledge of any replacement. In that case, if I were you, I would take the position that it is the original joint.
I presume the buyer has raised this issue for a reason, perhaps to get you to negotiate a lower price or perhaps to get you to accept a return. Regardless of the outcome of the inquiry to the Buffet factory, if I were you I would NOT negotiate a lower price with the buyer. On the other hand, I would probably offer the buyer the opportunity to return the instrument with the understanding that s/he pays shipping both ways. If the instrument plays fine, you will probably do better relisting it on e-Bay than negotiating an adjustment. And if you have no other evidence of a replacement joint, IMO, you need not mention a replacement when you relist.
If you would like to discuss this further with me, please e-mail me off list. If the buyer sent you pictures of the serial numbers in question, please include them. (If the buyer didn't send pictures, request them. I would want more than his/her word that they look funny.) You can find my e-mail address by clicking on my name at the top of this post.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-06-07 19:17
One more point of information.
The upper joint on my son's Festival was replaced by Francois Kloc. It does not carry any serial number on it.
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Author: vin
Date: 2005-06-07 19:43
An old R13 of mine had the lower joint (yes, only the lower joint!) crack and its replacement had no serial number.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-06-07 20:24
I received an off-line email from one of the largest, respected sellers of new and used Buffet clarinets. Permission HAS been granted to quote portions of the text:
"... When Buffet does warranty joint replacement (as opposed to warranty crack repair) they stamp/engrave the (original serial number onto the) replacement joint. Joints purchased from Buffet, ... have no serial number..."
and
"...However, on all the replacements [upper joint] I have seen the serial numbers were jumbled up & down (lopsided) Perhaps this poor job of engraving was not purposeful or perhaps it was..."
but
"... However, the Lower Joints had Buffet Serial Numbers which were exactly - dead on - even as to vertical or horizontal lining up or spacing between numbers..."
...GBK
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-06-07 20:52
GBK wrote:
>
> "... When Buffet does warranty joint replacement (as opposed
> to warranty crack repair) they stamp/engrave the (original
> serial number onto the) replacement joint. Joints purchased
> from Buffet, ... have no serial number..."
And as I posted ... not always. The upper joint replacement by Francois was under warranty.
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2005-06-07 21:06
When they replaced the upper joint of my Buffet RC 1112Z under warranty, they send the joint to our distributor in the netherlands and it was without a serial number...
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-06-07 22:25
Linda...you said you SOLD ...past tense....it on eBay and now the buyer is haggling for information. My impression is that he may be looking to reneg on the deal. If it were me I'd let him reneg.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Tom A
Date: 2005-06-09 01:21
In exactly what manner does the buyer say the upper number is engraved? Is it not level? The depth of engraving different to the lower joint? I ask because the upper number on my 1986 R13 is quite worn, to the point where an "8" could be mistaken easily for a "3". The lower number is clear as ever. If this is their problem, it's just different wear.
Otherwise, from GBK's quote and Mark's clarification, you can be confident that if it has a number then it is a warranty replacement, which is effectively an original joint.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-06-09 12:12
BobD wrote:
> Bogey
Bogart ...
You lost more brain cells than you realize ... 
(Written by Fraternity Of Man, covered by Little Feat and made famous by Easy Rider)
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-06-09 14:42
The first evidence of a joint having been replaced is a surgical scar in the vicinity of the joint, but x-rays can help one know for certain. (Stainless steel is less transparent to x-rays than is bone.)
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Author: linda_loo
Date: 2005-06-09 16:56
First off, you guys crack me up (no pun intended), how we go from the very serious-information answers to the burning lips and lost brain cells.
Second, I ended up just asking the buyer if it arrived in the condition that I described it in the auction. He agreed that it was, so there is no longer any conversation between us on it. From what we did talk about, I think he just wanted more information on the instrument. Apparently, he is a dealer of some kind; not sure if it is only online or brick and mortar as well. I assume he wants to re-sell it... he has an account with Buffet and I believe he will be seeing Francois (who is currently out of town) in the next week or so. I don't know what the outcome will mean to the buyer, but I'm sure he is going to get Francois' opinion on the serial number stamping. In any case, he got it at a price that (even if it does have a replaced joint), he'll still make money on it. Initially, I was worried that this was going to be a problem sale, I was horrified that the instrument's integrity was being questioned and I wanted to know all I could about serial number stamping and replacement joints.
He wrote (and I am paraphrasing here) that in the 327,xxx serials, replacement joints often have alternating lopsided numbers and that he has often seen this on replacements. On my clarinet (which does have matching serial numbers, upper and lower joint), he has determined that the numbers were engraved one by one; that is why he thinks it has a replacement joint. I read that some of you have replacement joints with no numbers, but apparently this is something he has seen often.
As for if/if not it is a bad thing, I wanted to know because if it is in fact a replacement joint, I am bothered that the original dealer did not disclose this. I was a young college student at the time (1992), and I can't say if it would have made a difference to me at that time or not. Perhaps it is not the practice to tell a customer that it is a replacement joint... but I think it should be. Even though I realize that there is no guarantee that the upper and lower are from the same billet of wood, I still think full price should be for an instrument that has not had a replacement on the warrantee.
Thanks so much for all the great replies, I really appreciate it.
Post Edited (2005-06-09 16:57)
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