 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: musica
Date: 2005-04-17 22:48
What is the norm for most performances of this as far as articulation goes..
the passage in the throat tones/slur two tongue two or go for it and hope the
conductor doesn't push the tempo to the max????
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-04-18 00:03
The Copland "Hoe-Down" is one long tonguing exercise which was written for the wrong clarinet.
Tongue everything as written. If the tempo is faster than you can single tongue, then double tongue it.
Most of the fast passages are either with the other woodwinds or with the strings. The exposed, important, short clarinet solo is just before #14.
IMPORTANT - The Boosey & Hawkes edition has 2 misprints in the 1st clarinet part. Both are fairly obvious:
In the 5th measure of #10, the first note should be E (not D).
In the 4th measure of #16, the last three notes are F# (not E), G#, and A#...GBK
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2005-04-18 03:22
Mitchell Estrin, a former student of mine, who now teaches in Florida, has transposed the Copland/Hoe-Down for "A" clarinet. He claims it's much easier on the A clarinet, than the original Bb version. Perhaps you should give it a try?
Copland wrote it for Bb clarinet, so I continue to stumble through it on my Bb clarinet. One of these days I'll actually sit down a practice it to get it right!
BTW: I go along with GBK, articulate as written.
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
Post Edited (2005-04-18 03:23)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-04-18 03:50
John J. Moses wrote:
> Mitchell Estrin, a former student of mine, who now teaches in
> Florida, has transposed the Copland/Hoe-Down for "A" clarinet.
> He claims it's much easier on the A clarinet, than the original
> Bb version.
John - I first thought the same thing until I decided to play the entire piece on C clarinet. It lies even BETTER than playing it on A clarinet.
Although I favor the C clarinet transposition, either one is an improvement over the Bb version...GBK
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Author: marcia
Date: 2005-04-18 04:13
Definitely easier on an "A". Do we think Copeland would really have cared if it was played on "A" rather than "Bb"? I'm currently playing (perhaps attmpting to would be more correct) the Grand Canyon Suite. It's all for "Bb" and some of it definitley lies better on the "A". Again I have to wonder, does it really matter to the composer? Do they even know the difficulties experienced by the players? Too bad neither Copeland or Grofe are around to ask.
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-04-18 06:24
We played Hoe Down last summer in our orchestra and I thought I saw smoke coming from under our fingers with the tempo we were taking it. ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif) For me, it was nearly impossible to play as written on the Bb at that speed. One of our clarinetists has a transposing program on her computer so she transposed it for our A clarinets. Wow! What a huge difference. Definitely easier to play. I don't think Copeland would have cared since at least on the A clarinet we could play the notes. Once learned, though, it is a really fun piece to play and while at one time we were all cursing that piece, we eventually all learned to love it.
I agree with everyone else.......articulate as written.
Rebecca
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-04-18 14:21
Haven't played it and only have slight acquaintance with it. However.....wouldn't typical hoedown stuff be played on a fiddle....and if so would that be easier? Never saw a clarinet being played at a Hoedown either.....so where was Copeland coming from!
Bob Draznik
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Author: William
Date: 2005-04-18 14:25
I too have transposed this for C clarinet and find it a lot easier. If the conductor takes the tempo faster in the performance, double tonguing seems easier or the C. FWIW, for a slightly "bigger" sound, I use a Chadash barrel on my C clarinet. Helps with the tuning issues as well.
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2005-04-18 14:27
Okay, GBK, I am very amused. So we must play on the instrument the composer intended, unless the piece "was written for the wrong clarinet"?
Besides being amused, I actually agree. We are playing this in my community orchestra right now and that little lick in the throat tones going up to the midline B is driving me crazy.
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2005-04-18 14:35
Years ago I used to try to play along with it whenever those beef commercials came on. I remember thinking, "That's gotta be written for A clarinet."
You mean it's not??? Ouch.
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-04-18 14:53
My suspicion is that Copland, who certainly must have known that the A clarinet was a possibility for this piece, chose to use the Bb for its brighter sound.
I don't think he was concerned about fingering issues of any one clarinet being easier to play in a specific key than another.
Thus, in my way of thinking, the C clarinet retains the bright sound, while making many of the passages more finger friendly...GBK
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Author: John Morton
Date: 2005-04-18 16:48
Expanding on BobD's comments ... this piece has always bugged me. I am quite familiar with fiddle/square dance repertoire, having played guitar and fiddle in such a band for some years. "Hoedowns" are completely a product of the American fiddle vernacular, and sit beautifully beneath the fingers of the unschooled player. They take full advantage of the open strings and the tricks which characterize the fiddle, e.g. the shuffle-bow rhythm, certain double stops, paired unison notes.
It seems absurd to me that a clarinet interpretation of backwoods violin style should have become a test piece for the classical virtuoso. To anyone who has heard southern Appalachian fiddlers, Copland's Hoedown on the clarinet can only sound awkward next to a competent player in the style. I cringe whenever I hear it.
all imho
John Morton
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2005-04-18 18:39
John Morton wrote:
> "Hoedowns" are completely a product of the American fiddle
> vernacular, and sit beautifully beneath the fingers of the
> unschooled player. .
Absolutely!
>
John Morton also wrote:
> It seems absurd to me that a clarinet interpretation of
> backwoods violin style should have become a test piece for the classical >virtuoso
Well, the piece isn't exactly intended to showcase the clarinet...
GBK wrote"
I don't think he was concerned about fingering issues of any one clarinet being easier to play in a specific key than another."
Man, ain't that the truth!!
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Author: larryb
Date: 2005-04-18 18:46
Yo! Brooklyn hoe downs are always played on clarinet. Copland knew what he was doing.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-04-19 20:02
Mazzeo says that "no conductor can tell the difference between the A and Bb clarinets, anyway." (pseudoquote from the tale of his cohort who was forced to pawn his A clarinet and had to transpose everything to keep his job in the orchestra).
Bob Phillips
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-11-14 18:48
GBK wrote:
<<My suspicion is that Copland, who certainly must have known that the A clarinet was a possibility for this piece, chose to use the Bb for its brighter sound.>>
I know this is an old thread, but I just sight-read this piece for the first time yesterday, so it's been on my mind, and I feel I may have made a useful observation.
While it's certainly plausible that Copland was looking for a bright sound by scoring for the Bb clarinet (in fact, until I discovered what I found yesterday, I would have assumed this), I'm beginning to think it may be more likely that Copland was simply in the habit of writing for the Bb clarinet and didn't give much thought to the difference in tone quality between the Bb and A instruments.
Here's what leads me to think this: I did a little informal survey of Copland scores last night, and it turned out that almost every place I looked, Copland scored for the Bb instrument, regardless of musical style or key. The notable exception to this is the full-symphony-orchestra arrangement of Appalachian Spring. The opening is in the key of A (concert pitch) and is played on an A clarinet. HOWEVER (and this is the interesting part), the ORIGINAL version of Appalachian Spring (written in the same key but for a chamber ensemble of 13 instruments) has the very same solo scored for the Bb clarinet (written in key of B natural--5 sharps--ouch!).
That suggests to me that it simply never occurred to Copland to write the part for an A clarinet, but that once the ballet had been performed (and, very likely, the clarinetist transposed the original part to play on an A clarinet to make it more manageable), Copland decided when he re-arranged Appalachian Spring for full orchestra that it would be better simply to write the clarinet parts for clarinet in A to begin with. Hence, it appears that Copland himself even transposed one of his ballet scores for A clarinet, after the fact, to make it easier to play! And if using an instrument with a particular bright or dark tone quality was going to matter in any of Copland's clarinet parts, surely it would have been Appalachian Spring, where he actually features the clarinet (as opposed to burying it in strings and other winds, as in the Hoe Down).
So I've come the conclusion that I don't think Copland would mind someone transposing the part to play on the A clarinet. He did it himself when he re-arranged Appalachian Spring, so I see no reason why he would disapprove of someone doing the same thing with the Hoe Down. By the same token I doubt Copland would find anything objectionable with transposing for C clarinet, either. At any rate, I don't think anybody should feel bad about transposing the Hoe Down to make it easier to play. It seems like the sensible thing to do.
It also appears from his own writing that Copland experienced some frustration with writing "playable" music for clarinet (including, but limited to his experience with Benny Goodman). This quote from one of Copland's books is priceless:
"Difficulties of execution must also be continually borne in mind by the composer. A melodic idea that seems predestined to be sung by a clarinet will be found to make use of a particular group of notes that present insuperable difficulties to the clarinetist because of certain constructional peculiarities of his instrument. These same notes may be quite easy to perform on oboe or bassoon, but it so happens that on a clarinet they are very difficult. So composers are not completely free agents in making their choice of tone colors." --Aaron Copland, in "What to Listen for in Music."
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Author: davyd
Date: 2008-11-15 18:39
On the typos: I concur with the one after #10. I'm not so sure about the one after #16, though; the violins and other upper WW have E, so F# in the Bb clar part would seem to be correct.
Typos I've found: from the beginning up to #2, all the D#s should be D-naturals; same thing in the 2nd clarinet part. These are pretty obvious.
Here's another vote for playing the tune on the A clarinet. The passages beginning 4 before #9 and 4 before #20 are still hard, but the rest is easier. Perhaps the next time it comes around I'll try the C clarinet, though that will mean not playing the final bar. But there's still no place to breathe, and I still can't double-tounge.
Outside of "authentic instruments" ensembles, trumpeters and hornists are allowed, even expected, to use valved instruments when playing pieces written for non-valved instruments. Why shouldn't we clarinetists use whichever instrument will produce the best results?
Someday I hope to play this piece behind a cello section that can play their solo at 6 after #3 without being coaxed, and an upper string section that can wait for their cue in the bar before #19.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2008-11-16 19:36
One should be able to articulate this one easily as written....
David Dow
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