 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: wjk
Date: 2005-04-17 01:14
Yes, I'd love to play like Mulhfeld. Yes, it would be amazing to play like Leister. Is this only possible with a German clarinet and mouthpiece and a string ligature? Can one do this with an R-13?
Thank you.
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2005-04-17 02:41
Does anyone (here) actually know what Muhlfeld sounded like? Are there any historical recordings? I've always wanted to hear his sound (as it was rumored to be quite expressive and fiery from what I understand - Possibly a 19th century Stoltzman?), but I assumed he lived too long ago to have been recorded (at least with good enough quality to discern what his sound was actually like).
Don Hite
theclarinetist@yahoo.com
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-04-17 08:01
Alan Hacker has recorded the Brahms sonatas and trio on a clarinet similar to Muhlfeld's. I have this recording as well as one of Leister's (and the third movement of the trio in another Leister recording); not sure they sound very similar.
Such evidence as I have seen suggests that Muhlfeld's sound may have appealed to Brahms more than it appealed to other clarinet players. Muhlfeld started off as a violinist. It may be that the reason Brahms became interested in the clarinet when he met Muhlfeld was precisely because Muhlfeld sounded like no clarinet player he'd ever heard before.
Now Muhlfeld playing the "Beethoven clarinet concerto"; that would be one to hear.....
Added later: a Google search reminds me that there is, apparently: "a recording of the clarinet sonatas originally made for the
BBC played by Keith Puddy on Richard Muhlfeld's B flat clarinet and Malcolm
Martineau on a German piano of ca. 1870". I haven't heard it.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
Post Edited (2005-04-17 08:31)
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-04-17 09:29
There is no proof that Brahms particulary liked the clarinet as a solo instrument as such. It was only after hearing Muelfeldt playing that he fell in love with his musicianship using this instrument. This is why it's such a pity that his sound never was recorded.
However, the earliest recording of the Brahms Quintet (1st and 2nd movements) is from 1916 by the English clarinetist Charles Draper. Muelfeldt heard Draper playing this and gave his approval of his performance. He even thaught that Draper had found "hidden secrets" about the music that Muelfeldt hadn't found himself so to him it appears like Draper's performance was a devellopment of the work. Draper recorded the whole Quintet in 1927 with the Hungarian Lener Quartet.(GEMM CD 9903)
I don't think that the Brahms Quintet is such a matter of sound as a matter of style. I think you can have any type of sound you like if you only can identify yourself with the stylistic values in this piece. When Joachim was invited to London with his quartet the Brahms quintet was on the program. The English wanted their star Egerton to be the soloist but Joachim had his strong doubts that Egerton was the man to perform this piece because he could impossibly know or have any relation to the style of this piece so he strongly disapproved of this idea.
According to the above said I think that the recording with Draper is the most important document there is when it comes to getting an idea about how the Brahms Quintet should be performed. It has served as an inspiration to me and has enlightened me very much, together with a big box of original recordings of gipsy music from the turn of the last century.
Alphie
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-04-18 17:19
Muhlfeld died in 1907, at the age of 51, so it's certainly possible that he made recordings. As you might expect, clarinetists have searched diligently, but haven't found any. Michael Bryant, who knows more about clarinet recordings than anybody (and has access to the BBC library), follows up on all the rumors, with no luck.
Jack Brymer wrote that Muhlfeld had an indifferent reputation, and one violinist who had played with him said he used "a big vibrato."
His Ottensteiner clarinets were significantly different from Ohlers. Keith Puddy got a grant and had one of Muhlfeld's Bb instruments restored and recorded the Brahms Sonatas on it. I have it and think it's good musically and certainly a fascinating window into history. Steve Fox makes a reproduction, but the one I played several years ago was still a work in progress.
Charles Draper recorded a heavily abridged version of the Brahms Quintet (with bleeding chunks of all four movements) on a 2-side acoustic disk, and later made the first electrical recording, both with the Lener Quartet. I have both, and the acoustic one is almost unlistenable. The electrical one, however, is excellent. Draper played a Boehm system clarinet, though, so his sound was almost certainly quite different from Muhlfeld's.
Michele Zukovsky told me that when she went to study with Leister, he said he greatly preferred his students to switch to German instruments, and he didn't think he could teacher her satisfactorily if she stayed with Buffets. She therefore made the switch, and, obviously, did very well, getting the principal job in Los Angeles. Her father, Kalman Bloch (who was also principal in Los Angeles), told me he thinks she sounds more like Simeon Bellison (the long-time principal in the New York Philharmonic, who played German instruments) than anyone.
The Chicago Symphony bought a set of Wurlitzer German clarinets to use in German music. Larry Combs told me they make it easier to get what he thinks of as a German sound out of them than on his Leblanc Opus clarinets. However, when I listen to Robert Marcellus in the Cleveland Orchestra's Wagner recordings http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000027VN/102-2604533-1975323?v=glance, he sounds amazingly "German."
Alphie is right, of course. The important thing is the musicianship. In addition, there's much to be learned from very old recordings. There are even a few of Joseph Joachim http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000WZ2/qid=1113844673/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-2604533-1975323. They are cylinders, made in his old age, but for me they tell as much about the Brahms style as anything.
Ken Shaw
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-04-18 17:38
Thanks everyone for a great discussion....
Bob Draznik
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Author: RosewoodClarinet
Date: 2005-04-18 18:22
It is, I think, so fantastic about the fact that Marcellus who studied with French clarinetist, Bonade, made "German" sound under Szell conducting.
RosewoodClarinet
Post Edited (2005-04-18 18:23)
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Author: graham
Date: 2005-04-19 12:19
Both Draper recordings sound a good deal better if you play the 78s rather than the CD transcriptions.
Puddy told me he doubted Muhlfeld was a "very great player". To bench mark that comment note that Draper would be a "very great player" in context. Of course, he determined that from contemporary comments and not a recording (as there are none).
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2005-04-19 19:57
I recently acquired a 3-CD set featuring Sabine Meyer on Clarinet. The photo shows her Ohler(?) clarinet (it has saxophone-style rollers on the pinkie keys), but her sound in the performance is indistinguishable (to me) from an "ordinary" clarinet.
In the photos, her instrument has a metal ligature.
Bob Phillips
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-04-19 21:38
Along the same lines as Bob's note above, I recently got a recording of George Pieterson (former principal of the Amsterdam Concertgebouw orchestra) playing the Brahms sonatas, and although he's clearly holding an Oehler clarinet on the cover (not a Reform Boehm, I'm sure), to me he sounds just like a Boehm player, as opposed to having a Karl Leister sort of sound. I guess it's like we've been saying, it's the player, not the axe.
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Author: Bas
Date: 2005-04-20 10:27
George Pieterson plays a Herbert Wurlitzer Reform Boehm clarinet.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-04-20 14:53
I know --- I'll check the album cover again, but it sure looked like an Oehler to me --- I think it's an older recording, did Pieterson ever play Oehler or has it always been a Reform Boehm?
Regardless, he's a great player.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-04-21 08:21
John Kelly quotes me, and asks whether Muhlfeld's background as a violinist may have led him to use vibrato on the clarinet.
I certainly don't know the answer, this is just speculation....
Muhlfeld is reported as having played the clarinet with vibrato. This may have derived from his violin playing, but we can't be sure. In making this assumption, we should remember that the continuous use of vibrato by violinists is a 20th-century development. It is far from clear whether Muhlfeld would have used continuous vibrato even on the violin.
My supposition - and it is no more than a supposition - is that Muhlfeld's background may have influenced his clarinet playing in all sorts of ways: not just vibrato but his phrasing, use of dynamics, accuracy of intonation.
So far as I am aware Brahms only wrote five chamber pieces for wind instruments: four for Muhlfeld plus the trio for violin, horn and piano. The horn piece was probably inspired by Brahms's early training as a horn player; the clarinet pieces were clearly inspired by Muhlfeld. Brahms would have heard dozens of orchestral clarinet players: there must have been something very distinctive about Muhlfeld's playing to draw Brahms out of retirement to write for him.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Bas
Date: 2005-04-21 09:34
HelloDavid,
George Pieterson has always played the Reform boehm.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-04-21 14:40
Thank you, Bas --- and I (humbly, with embarrassment) stand corrected -- I looked at my album cover again and it is indeed a Reform Boehm that Mr. Pieterson is playing. Next time I'll check the facts before opening my mouth!
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Author: ned
Date: 2005-04-21 23:03
Yes I quoted David and now my post seems to have vanished from this thread.
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