 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bflatclarinetist
Date: 2005-03-23 03:11
When I'm playing my clarinet I naturally tend to put expression into the music. Such as bob my head and move up upper body to the music. Putting emotion into it helps me get a better tone because I'm focused on the music. Once before somebody asked "is he dancing or something?". But I'd just like to know if I'm not the only one who tends to do this. I've seen and I know most of the professionals always put emotion into it.
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Author: Contra
Date: 2005-03-23 03:41
I do it all the time on soprano. Of course, it was normally during football games, so it wasn't too out of the ordinary.
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-03-23 03:44
I think it's a matter of how much you put into it. It's one thing to feel the music but another to be distracting from it. If your audience is watching you "dance" more than listening to you play then you may want to tone it down a bit.
I move when I play as I think most people probably do but there are some that are very dramatic with it. If you are a soloist with an orchestra and playing a concerto then you could probably be a little more expressive than if you're sitting back in the clarinet section.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-03-23 05:58
I know people who move a lot, and I know people who don't move at all. I know great players in both areas, and some in between.
That said, in the audience I find a lot of bobbing distracting, especially if the person bobbing isn't "the soloist."
A significant amount of motion sometimes becomes a sort of crutch for the player. I've known people who rely on significant bodily motion, to whatever extent, to "help" the notes, and are unable to play the passage as well while staying still. Often, the high notes suffer the most, as these performers often go "pucker face" to "reach" the high notes, pinching the tone. While people who move a lot are quite often very fine musicians and have excellent technical chops, I find (eyes closed, mind you) that it produces a more agitated sound, and it is difficult to relax as a listener.
There are two different "schools" on the matter, and I belong very heavily to the "stop moving" one.
If anything, I'd encourage people to not equate expressiveness, and especially emotion, with physical motion. One of my professors likes to tell a story of when he told all his students to close their eyes during a master class. He played a passage, remaining perfectly still. He then asked them to guess what he looked like. The class all claimed that he was moving wildly back and forth, "expressively" grabbing onto each note. They were all quite surprised to learn the exact opposite.
I would contend that playing without "dramatic" motion is more difficult and less rewarding initially, but allows for a more intimate player-instrument relationship and focus that opens a beautiful world of expressiveness over time. I was sold in one master class when I was repeatedly told not to move. Finally, when I'd stopped moving entirely, I played the passage twice as expressively as I had before.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-03-23 11:42
oh I move when I play. some people make fun of me or wonder what I'm doing. But all the pros I have seen thus far "dance" when they play. I think I can express more with movement. Actually, when I just sit there with the bell between my legs, and especially with my back against the chair, my performance isn't half as good. I dunno, maybe it's pyschological, but keep doing what your doing!
-Lindsie
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Author: bob49t
Date: 2005-03-23 12:17
Right, I'm with you Lindsie - a certain amount of movement is a good thing orchestrally as a visual aid for your wind section colleagues especially if you are duetting with them.
I don't think I could sit absolutely still - my natural exuberance for the piece being performed has to manifest itself. Yes, but I don't clash heads with the bassooninst or knock over stands. In slow solemn passages however, appropriately reduced movement is the order of the day.
I may however sit without movement if the music suggests stillness.
RT
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Author: glin
Date: 2005-03-23 12:33
If playing solo, and it helps you make the music move, yes.
If playing in a ensemble, and it doesn't cause too much distraction, yes.
You might want to discuss with the director. If playing a polka or march, please don't bob up and down, or teeter side to side-that's what I consider distracting, especially if you are only one doing it.
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Author: luckyclarinettoenla
Date: 2005-03-23 12:42
Hey All! This is a very interesting subject. I used to move extensively to music I was playing--emoting wildly and not really knowing what the heck was going on. My teacher (a Klug student) said that even when you are moving, you ought to have a purpose. The motion that you use should help your accompanist lock into the beat that you are setting and should not be contradictory to the rhythmic motion on the piece. Hands down, you should give a downbeat on 1. I totally agree that some motion is needed especially when playing within an orchestra where there are lots of duets between the first wind players. In quintet, (the orchestral principals were required to play in the quintet so that we could learn how to read each other) we all learned to conduct from our instruments.
The flip side however, is that too much motion will indeed change your sound. When your sound hits the floor after leaving the bell of your instrument, it disperses throughout the hall or room or whatever your venue into the audience. If you are moving the bell around like you are stirring a "witches' cauldron" the sound is going to have somewhat of a doppler effect. So I suppose that movement with purpose = good, movement for the sake of movement = bad. Hope this helps!
Lucky
Never fool yourself into believing that today's 'good enough' will do tomorrow!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-03-23 13:39
If it's attracting comments it's too much....
Bob Draznik
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-03-23 13:54
You shouldn't bounce around in your chair. Be relaxed, but not animated. If you are a soloist or recitalist, you would look stiff and possibly unmusical if you didn't move at all. You don't want to appear as a soldier either, but do not dance - and never have anyone in the audience wondering if the movements are choreographed - unless the "piece" calls for it 
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-03-23 14:21
Then again, if you can play clarinet with the same kind of energy that Jacqueline DuPré used when she played cello, no one will care about your body movements in the long run ...
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Author: Dano
Date: 2005-03-23 14:31
There is no right or wrong on this. There is no so called "expert" advice on something like this. You can do what the music tells you as long as you know your music and it does not distract you from playing well. That is of course unless you happen to have the unfortunate luck to have a director that tells you exactly how relaxed and animated you should be. You know the kind. The ones that make you feel like you are typing instead of playing music. Distracting would be kind of bad but these preformances are dead for the most part so having a clarinetist that moves a little more than the other dead weights would liven up the whole thing also. I would rate you on your ability to play that clarinet and not make too much of a fuss over you moving too much. I know that when I play a gig, unless I have to read music, I have my eyes closed for a great portion of it. I expect to someday open my eyes and see an empty room instead of people! I am not much into dancing around but I have once or twice felt like I went through a workout after playing. Being able to "let go" is one of the reasons I like to play music. Otherwise it is a chore and I feel it is coming from somone else instead of me.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-03-23 17:11
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There is no right or wrong on this. There is no so called "expert" advice on something like this.
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of course there is. And you will find more coaches telling students "not to move too much" than the other way around.
You may or may not agree with it, but there is "expert advice on it". Also, when you are bouncing around the sound can get distorted by the movements.
Personally I would rather see a player moving around than still as a soldier. I was even coaching a student last week to move around more as she looked too stiff while playing (for a competition).
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Author: Dano
Date: 2005-03-23 17:42
I was not talking about students being coached on the fundamentals of how to properly play the clarinet. I was commenting more on once you have your fundamentals. That is why I specified "unless it distracts you from being able to play your clarinet". I suppose that there is "expert" advice on mouthpiece-reed-ligature combinations also but once you have your chops, you are the only one that knows what is right. Same with how much you move when playing. Fundamentals are taken with a grain of salt once you understand your instrument and find that you can play better by throwing some of those fundamentals out with the bad reeds and the student mouthpieces. Opinion and fact can sometimes be miles from each other. For example, David Sanborn, the alto saxaphonist, plays out of the side of his mouth. I don't think any sax teacher would tell you that it is proper to play out of the side of your mouth. Works for David.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2005-03-23 17:53
Do you knock over music stands?
Do you find band mates flinching out of your way?
In a chamber setting, nodding and swaying seem to be ways to communicate a complicated entrance or tie up at a fermata - excessive emoting by a solo player can be distracting, however.
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2005-03-23 19:09
The clarinet player that sits next to me, she was telling me and my fellow third clarinetist to stop moving... We were only putting "lilt" into the music like our band director wanted ^_^! But anyways, she said it affects tone... So who knows.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-03-23 19:30
I had been thinking of asking nearly the same question myself. As I once noticed in the wind symphony I play in, all or nearly all the first clarinets were moving to the music, while the oboists were sitting as though their backs were welded to a girder. I don't know that they do it on every piece and I don't think their movement was excessive. I know that when I am "into" a piece of music, I sometimes tend to do it myself, pivoting my bass clarinet around the peg. Again, I don't think my movement is excessive.
As far as my amateur opinion, I think a certain small degree of movement is good in that it helps in your musical expression--not directly, but by allowing you to feel the music more. If the angle and placement of the mouthpiece in relation to the mouth remains constant, I don't see where there would be a real effect on tone. And as far as a doppler effect, sure, if your instrument is moving toward or away from someone, there will be one, but, although I haven't done the calculations to back me up, I don't think that the velocity of movement is sufficient for the pitch change to be noticed by even the most discerning ear.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-03-23 20:37
>>If the angle and placement of the mouthpiece in relation to the mouth remains constant, I don't see where there would be a real effect on tone.<<
Try moving around while retaining that exact angle and pressure.
Assuming you can (it requires effort), remember that the air column extends from the diaphragm well into the clarinet; the mouth/mouthpiece connection is just one link in the chain. Any disruption in it will affect the tone to some extent. It's a complicated issue, but effects (actual, mental, and perhaps sometimes falsely percieved) include:
- Significant effort put into the rest of the body is no longer directed toward the instrument.
- Keys are pressed at different velocities.
- The body, especially the embouchre, is tensed and relaxed at times not beneficial for the line. For example, most players tend to move up when the line goes up, which can be harmful in multiple ways: a) tightening of the face leads to sharper pitch. The problem is exacerbated when different players move different amounts; b) the airstream is likely to become focused toward the upper part of the clarinet, providing a thinner tone; c) the note played might be lower on the clarinet (e.g. throat A to long B) and require downward motion, but is provided a "higher" airstream, leading to over-the-break problems and flimsy mid-staff notes.
- Non-matching of fingers with keys. The player is thinking "high" when going up, so fingers on higher keys are given mental and physical priority to some extent, even though the lowest finger down is always the important one.
These issues also contribute greatly to why I think many people have trouble achieving a stable altissimo.
>>And as far as a doppler effect, sure, if your instrument is moving toward or away from someone, there will be one, but, although I haven't done the calculations to back me up, I don't think that the velocity of movement is sufficient for the pitch change to be noticed by even the most discerning ear.<<
The doppeler effect is the least significant side effect of moving too much. You're just not moving fast enough. More likely, you'll hear fluctuations in volume and color due to different angles. This is especially true in recordings with a very nearby mic, and in performances where the person moves a LOT.
I'm not a no-motion-whatsoeverist, as I believe small movements here and there are beneficial, perhaps necessary. What does upset me is this, and I see and hear it all too often:
People will sometimes equate fast notes with technique, and physical motion with style. Emotionality and expressiveness are treated as a simple formula, with exact things that must be done to achieve them. Musicality becomes almost a sort of checklist which puts out some outstanding players, if studio-accuracy and playing it how it's "supposed to be played" and how it's been played the past 35,000 times is what you're after. After that, people like to "bring their own interpretation." However, such interpretation, I think, is often misdirected into greater physical motion so that the performer "feels" like they are doing it differently, with a net result that, sadly, isn't as musically unique as they'd hope.
(excuse my rant; currently resolving a musical identity crisis)
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-03-23 20:40
I'm with Mark Charette here ... du Pre was one of those supreme artists AND she moved around constantly whilst playing ... totally fine with me.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-03-23 21:04
"I know most of the professionals always put emotion into it."
In my opinion emotion doesn't necessarily equate to bobbing and weaving. In a typical band environment body movement that distracts those around you is unacceptable. And I don't think that's just an opinion.
Note that "distracts" is the key word.
Bob Draznik
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2005-03-23 21:15
>>I'm with Mark Charette here ... du Pre was one of those supreme artists AND she moved around constantly whilst playing ... totally fine with me.<<
While I agree that if you play at that quality, it doesn't matter so much what you look like, clarinet and cello are completely different beasts. Some movement is required to just make a sound on cello, and further movement can enhance the tone in some cases. As someone who is not as good on clarinet as du Pre was on cello, heavy movement is not a wise choice on my part, nor one that I'd personally recommend for others.
A friend of mine would always say that Bonade played the A parts on his Bb, and I always replied that we don't play at Bonade's level at the moment, so he should still go out and buy an A.
People at an extremely high level of artistry can do things well that might not be recommended for people who "don't know what we're doing". For people like me in third class, as it were, "he does it, so why can't I?" isn't usually a wise course of action.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-03-23 22:26
If, after you have performed, people recheck their tickets to see if they attended a dance recital instead of a concert, you are moving too much ...GBK
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Author: ken
Date: 2005-03-23 23:36
I saw Sabine Meyer a few years back, and between the rocking back and forth, baton clarinet, and hair flying around slapping her in the face I felt like I was riding a Six Flags rollercoaster. For me, it significantly detracted from an otherwise awesome display of technical skill and musicianship.
Stand still and save the dancing for Lew Tabackin! v/r Ken
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-03-24 00:47
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A friend of mine would always say that Bonade played the A parts on his Bb, and I always replied that we don't play at Bonade's level at the moment, so he should still go out and buy an A.
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I highly doubt that one! Could it be true? What Bonade Students are still living?
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Author: Kevin
Date: 2005-03-24 01:20
Speaking of movement while playing . . .
http://newyorkphilharmonic.org/centerStage/index.cfm?page=doherty
Susan
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If, after you have performed, people recheck their tickets to see if they attended a dance recital instead of a concert, you are moving too much ...GBK
----
I think I might have checked my ticket for exactly that after watching Doherty give the American premiere of the Edwards Oboe Concerto.
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-03-24 01:58
Kevin ... indeed, but that was "part of the piece" - whether you liked it or not. When she sits in her first oboe chair, she is surprisingly motionless.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: graham
Date: 2005-03-24 12:22
Having attended two Sabine Meyer recitals I can say that I had to shut my eyes. Her movement detracts greatly from enjoyment, and is, relative to the physical characteristics of the instrument, much more instrusive than Du Pre. Emma Johnson also goes too far in choreographing her performances.
But looking at this from the point of view of an orchestral player, what are the issues?
If you move around, the person behind you is bound from time to time, randomly, to be unable to see the conductor. Flautists who move (far too high a proportion in my view) should be asked to desist or sit behind the percussion.
Much music involves cross cutting rythmic patterns, often going against the metre. If you waggle to your own beat you create a periferal vision distraction for your fellow players which makes it hard for them to follow the conductor. The conductor, after all, is supposed to have a monopoly on movement. It is intensly insensitive for a player to compete in this way with the conductor. Such movement does not indicate musicality, but rather, rythmic incompetence.
It is also a case of "showing off". If you doubt that the sound from the instrument can sufficiently convey your expressive message, give up playing the instrument.
Of course, as everyone has pointed out, some movement is likely to be inevitable. But it should be kept to a minimum. It is not an art in itself.
Chamber music is a little different but then the group decides what level of movement is best, not the individual, so it is still better to be able to play well without movement, in order to add the right sort of movement as the occasion demands.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-03-24 13:18
"or sit behind the percussion"
A better punishment would be to have them sit in front of the percussion!!
Bob Draznik
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Author: clarispark
Date: 2005-03-24 13:54
I know people who dance around a bit while they play their instruments. One of my clarinet friends does it quite a lot, but not as much as my oboe buddy. I guess it's a personal preference, but if you're in a group and nobody else is doing it, try and tamp it down, eh?
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-03-24 13:55
Just one more comment and then I'll step back.
There are different degrees of movement. When I, and I would guess most others, speak of movement being acceptable, we don't mean perceptively bouncing or swaying along with the beat. I would define acceptable movement, for example, as leaning forward slightly as a phrase intensifies. I agree with others that movement should not be purposeful or used as part of the show or to express yourself to the audience, but believe that when some of us feel the music, we have a natural tendency to move somewhat. To completely stifle all movement, I believe, would tend to lead to a analogously stiffer performance.
I also believe that not every passage or piece of music will or should foment movement. Heck, when I play fifteen measures of tied whole notes (yes, I play bass clarinet), I'm going to be unwavering, as that is what my tone and intensity are.
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2005-03-24 14:08
I've experienced a number of players who, not really understanding how to phrase, substituted body gymnastics for musical phrases! A good test is to close your eyes when listening to them to discern if dynamics variation is actually there, or if they are are just dancing around to conceal the fact that they have no clue as to phrase structure. This is certainly not the case with Sabine Meyer!
Mstislav Rostropovich always told us he was impressed with the body involvement of Berlin Philharmonic (string) players--encouraged us to follow suit. Maybe that's where Sabine leaned to "dance".
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Author: jim S.
Date: 2005-03-24 14:52
I have seen Julian Bliss practically dance in front of the orchestra.
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Author: leonardA
Date: 2005-03-25 01:21
I generally find it overdone. I just attended a string quartet concert where the players were constantly changing position, attacking the strings and making all kinds of faces as they "emphasized" the parts they were playing. To me it looked ridiculous.
Leonard
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2005-03-25 12:06
Graham wrote:
"Having attended two Sabine Meyer recitals I can say that I had to shut my eyes"
and
"It is also a case of "showing off". If you doubt that the sound from the instrument can sufficiently convey your expressive message, give up playing the instrument."
So do you think Sabine Meyer is showing off? Do you think she doubts that the sound from her instrument can sufficiently convey her expressive message? Should she give up playing the instrument???
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-03-25 21:30
"I have seen Julian Bliss practically dance in front of the orchestra."
...and I saw him with only piano accompaniment and his motions were entirely normal.
Bob Draznik
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Author: graham
Date: 2005-03-29 07:32
The two quotes made by Liquaorice were taken from a fair way apart in my comments. No I do not think in the case of either Meyer or Johnson it is showing off, though in many cases it is. Why they do it I don't know, but it is a distracting affectation.
That said, I do think Meyer's playing lacks ultimate musical commitment. When she played the Brahms Quintet with the Tokyo string quartet I felt the quartet got more out of the work than she did (listen to them and Lluna on recently released CD for an terrific account of that work). You could not say that of Johnson, but you could say Johnson is not refined (certainly not by Meyer's outstanding levels of refinement).
I suppose, even in the case of Meyer, I would like to hear more character and expression in the playing and less physical movement.
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