 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-03-15 21:31
When did bass clarinets to low-C become commercially available? It seems to me that symphonic composers may have begun writing the extra-low notes into their music prior to the 1950s, which is about the oldest low-C bass instrument I can recall having heard of. I'm probably way off base (off bass?) --- anybody got the real scoop? Larry Bocaner, please advise.........
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-03-15 22:58
Dave, in the Mozart Gran P thread above [below?], the ext. range horns disc. caused me to look in Al Rice's fine hist book, SO, I hope he may read our "stuff" and add from his immense knowledge of these subjects. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2005-03-15 23:20
I got my first low-C bass clarinet in 1961 (Leblanc Mod. 517) but I'm sure they were in the catalogs somewhat before that. Apparently low-C's were common in Russia before they were worldwide. Shostakovich 4th Symphony and Khachaturian Piano Concerto both date from about 1935, and both mandate low C's for very important solos. Schoeck Bass Clarinet Sonata (Swiss) from 1931 requires low D.
My personal pet peeve is composers who write low C heavy parts in treble clef; too many ledger lines for comfort!
When I coached with Rosario Mazzeo at Tanglewood in 1951 (A.D.) he was then using a Buffet bass clarinet that he had fitted with extra length (mainly in the bell curving upward like a low-A bari sax) extending the low raange to written Bb--Ab concert pitch! It was this horn (and I do mean horn!) that Walter Piston wrote for in his 6th Symphony. When I returned to Tanglewood in '56 Mazzeo had abandoned that instrument for a stock low-C Selmer.
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2005-03-16 03:20
"When I coached with Rosario Mazzeo at Tanglewood in 1951 (A.D.) he was then using a Buffet bass clarinet that he had fitted with extra length (mainly in the bell curving upward like a low-A bari sax) extending the low raange to written Bb--Ab concert pitch! It was this horn (and I do mean horn!) that Walter Piston wrote for in his 6th Symphony. When I returned to Tanglewood in '56 Mazzeo had abandoned that instrument for a stock low-C Selmer."
Hi Larry:
Having just worked with Dennis Smylie here in NYC, I believe he is using the Mazzeo bass clarinet you are describing. Dennis also owns quite a few other horns, but prefers to use the "Mazzeo bass" for most of his symphonic gigs. I'll bet he has lots to say about low-C bass clarinets!
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2005-03-16 06:30
More on topic,
is there much low C band music? Can anyone say how far back that goes?
Wayne Thompson
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-03-16 14:20
Larry, thanks for the good information -- I knew you'd know! Your post begs a couple of questions: Why did composers write for an instrument that didn't yet really exist, and what did bass clarinetists (outside of Russia) from the 1930s through late 50s-early 60's do when they had to play Shosty or other parts going down below written low-Eb? I wonder if they asked the bassoons to play the notes for them, or did they punt and play them up an octave?
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-03-16 14:59
Dave - You'll get better answers from our historians, not me, but didn't Wagner "force" the invention of a special-sized baritone-tuba brass horn for some of his early operas? Perhaps some of our pros who have played [early?] 1850-1900 opera, Wag, R Strauss, Verdi, Tschai etc can speak to composer "force" of low clars development, ext. bass or Contras to "bottom-out" powerful chords, in support of bassoons-tubas-string basses. ? My AM thots! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-03-16 15:53
Dave, as promised I took a quick look in Baines who referred to Rendall as the [then] definitive discussion of bass and contra cls. Chapters 11 and 12. R doesnt say much about extended range, other than a ref to Schoeck's Sonata 1931 as requiring lower notes. Some of the strange cls pictured in his "plates" might bear looking/analyzing for extra keying, dating almost back to Sax etc, also there is mention of early German and Russian "innovation". Interesting perhaps to only a few of us ? [READ] Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2005-03-16 15:55
Dave, no single answer to your query. Actually, answer is all of the above! Plus, I'm certain that Steinberg/Buffalo recording of Shosty VII from late 1940's used a contrabass clarinet for the low, low bass clarinet solos. Sometimes we played up an octave; sometimes handed off to contrabassoon. For low D's in Petrouchka (1911) I used a cardboard tube in my bell. And I remember Ronnie Reuben "miming" the low notes in Shosty VI in a Phily orch. rehearsal conducted by asst. conductor Bill Smith! (Don't think he would have tried that if Ormandy had been on the podium!)
Because of its persistent prevalence I'm certain that the low C bass clarinet existed well before the 1930's in Russia.
Re Dave Smylie: thanks for the info JJM! He is a super basscl player; I don't think we've ever met personally, bu t I have heard him play a number of times: live (American Symphony) and on records. My NSO successor, Ed Cabarga, had a session with Dave a year or two ago and I was fascinated by some the insights he brought back and shared with me.
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2005-03-16 16:02
Oops -- DENNIS Smilie! Can I play the senior moment card here?
Actually, I know a David Smylie, too. He was a violist in the San Francisco Symphony, and an early chairman of ICSOM (International Conference of Symphony and Opera Musicians).
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Author: graham
Date: 2005-03-17 08:52
I think the Petroushka low D appears in a 1940s revision. I have played it from the first edition and it goes to F sharp at that point rather than the low D.
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2005-03-17 12:44
sorry Graham--you've got it exactly backwards! I've played both versions many times! Original version of Petrouchka (4 clarinets) specifies low D; revised version (3 clarinets), mandated by Stravinsky's need to start earning performance royalties, changes it to F#. Sounds cheesy that way, too!
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