 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-20 23:08
help me, oh wise ones! I'll be e-mailing my clar. teacher, but I'd like as many ideas as possible (or do I?)
anyway- I have this etude that is incredibly hard (by Bitsch)
it switches off every measure, between 9/16, 5/16, 4/16, 6/16, and 3/16. The metranome marking given is dotted 8th = 88
so here's my problem- I know that I should break down the 9/16 into 3, the 6/16 into 2, and the 3/16 into 1, but the 5/16 is confusing me. It looks like, in the way it's written, I should break it into 12-123, but even in knowing that, I'm not sure how it should sound and can't seem to switch from a measure in 9/16 to a measure in 5/16. then 4/16... how should I break that up so that the beat is even? I haven't a clue how to break that up or where the beat falls.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-02-20 23:16
To be honest, it looks to me like no matter WHAT, the sixteenth note is getting the beat. So I'd literally just count each beat instead of breaking up measures. So for a 5/16 I'd count "1, 2, 3, 4, 5" then if it goes to 9/16 I'd count "1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9", etc. etc. I don't know how often it switches, but this helped me out a lot on those crazy, wacky rhythms in the few Stravinsky pieces I've played.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-20 23:39
sfalexi said:
>"To be honest, it looks to me like no matter WHAT, the sixteenth note is getting the beat. So I'd literally just count each beat instead of breaking up measures. So for a 5/16 I'd count "1, 2, 3, 4, 5" then if it goes to 9/16 I'd count "1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9", etc. etc. I don't know how often it switches, but this helped me out a lot on those crazy, wacky rhythms in the few Stravinsky pieces I've played."
well yes, I could do that, but that can be tedious. I suppose I could start out by doing that to really get the rhythm down, but I need the subdiving too. So it is 1-2-3-4-5 when the 16th gets the beat? ok, that's what I thought, but I wasn't sure.
still open to suggestions about how to play it when dotted 8th gets the beat though...
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-02-20 23:46
Hmmm....
Dotted eight getting the beat . . . .so it shouldn't be too much trouble in the 3/16, 6/16, and 9/19. (one, two, and three beats per measure). So the problem areas come in with the 4 and 5/16 measures.
I'd say it might be worth trying to sight-sing it (even if it's off-key) while conducting it with your hands. This usually helps me to see how a rhythm fits into a piece of music. Just using the syllable "Da" or "La" seems to help me out.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-02-20 23:47
Hi,
Alexi, IMHO you are very wrong about the 16th note getting the beat. What needs to happen is that notes need to be grouped so that each group can receive a pulse (or conductor's beat).
Moody explains this extremely well in http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=170116&t=170054
Just subsitute 16th or 8th not and you should have it. See Moody's other posts on complex rhythms; he has a gift for making these complex patterns not so difficult.
HRL
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-02-20 23:53
I realized that Hank after re-reading and realizing that it's the dotted eight that gets the beat (or three sixteenths). Sorry 'bout that.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-20 23:55
well, ok, 5/8 and 5/16 are awkward, but at least they make some sense. However, 4/16 still alludes me. Where is the beat there? 1 and 3? or beat 2?? or perhaps just 3? I don't know. someone in my school told me to just put the beat on all four notes, but that doesn't seem right.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-02-21 00:59
<<it switches off every measure, between 9/16, 5/16, 4/16, 6/16, and 3/16>>
If memory serves, the way I would conduct (i.e., beat) the above sequence is like this (presuming that each of the groupings below gets a beat, with either triple or duple duration):
123/123/123
123/12
12/12
123/123
123
Susan
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-02-21 01:18
Susan,
That seems about right and also the way I would conduct that pattern.
HRL
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-21 01:25
well, here's my teacher's advice:
" just played through the book yesterday and discovered after many years of not playing them, the only way I could do it right was to break down every piece to the largest unit that stays consistent. In that one, it's the 16th note. I don't know if I ever got good enough at these to group them differently and do it well, but I know that that's where you have to start. It's the only way it will work with a metronome, at least. Unless you have a really fancy Dr. Beat or something, you could never do a good 5/8 without sub-dividing, let alone switching between different meters. Surprisingly, I find even the sub-division to be pretty challenging.
OH, and when they give tempo suggestions (like dotted 1/4 = something) in an uneven meter, it's a suggestion more than a reality, because the dotted 1/4 doesn't exist continuously throughout the piece."
so she's kind of with Sfalexi on this one...
and after reading through some more of these etudes I realized that I still am having trouble with the 5/8 and 7/8, despite the subdivision advice. I understand how you're supposed to break it up, but when I play it, it just doesn't make sense to me.
but how else can you explain it? I don't know. I'm hopeless. thanks anyway.
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2005-02-21 01:44
I used to have trouble with these kinds of things. Sometimes it just doesn't make sense to suddenly do a 5/16 bar!
However, that's exactly what you have to do. Put your metrenome on quite slow, and play the piece through so slowly that you couldn't possibly screw it up. Then just bring it up a little day by day and it'll be ready to do in no time.
Easier said than done though!
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! ![[down]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley23.gif) Buffet
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Author: Tim2
Date: 2005-02-22 02:10
When I get some tough rhythms like that, it's best to think them through without the clarinet first. Read whats there. Feel it in your mind. Think through it -- slowly -- until it is correct in your mind. Up the tempo in your mind. When you become comfortable with it, get the clarinet out. Now practice it slowly playing it on your clarinet. Work slowly, increase speed only when you are comfortable with it.
The last few measures of the Bernstein sonata are the same way, much of the last movement is 5/8 except for the last few in 7/8 and 9/8 and something else, can't remember.
Rhythm has to be felt. Don't think you have to count by tapping your foot. It's going to work best if you feel the rhythm in your mind instead.
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-22 02:39
ah! I was thinking, before posting, that perhaps to know the theory would help me to play the rhythms...
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-02-22 05:54
Except for the last part, giving Buffet thumbs down, I agree with LeWhite. This is exactly how you should practice it.
If you want send me an email to clarnibass@yahoo.com and I think I'll be able to help you more.
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-02-22 15:53
hey everyone-
my clarinet teacher just sent me this site, and I figured I'd post it for those who also have rhythm issues. thanks for all your help!
http://www.giamusic.com/scstore/P-audiationassistant.html
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