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 Reading odd meters
Author: eefergirl 
Date:   2005-01-24 21:33

We're reading Aegean Festival Overture by Makris and I have to play the Eb clarinet solo in the middle. I have no idea how to read 5/8 (nor 7/8...)... this proves to be a little problem. How do I count it? How does the conductor normally conduct it? I am so confused...

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 Re: Reading odd meters
Author: Iacuras 
Date:   2005-01-24 21:53

eefergirl,
I also had trouble when I first encountered these for the first time. For 5/8, it is counted 1-2/3-4-5, with the / being the change in the beat from the conductor. For 7/8 it is counted 1-2/3-4/5-6-7. Hope I didn't confuse you any more than you already were.

Steve
"If a pretty poster and a cute saying are all it takes to motivate you, you probably have a very easy job. The kind robots will be doing soon."
"If you can't learn to do something well, learn to enjoy doing it poorly."

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 Re: Reading odd meters
Author: Robert Moody 
Date:   2005-01-24 22:12

I want to reply instantly with "Simple" and an explanation, but I realize that it can be confusing to some so I hope this helps along with the other responses I'm sure you will get.

As long as you understand clearly the relationships between eighth, sixteenths and dotted notes, you should do fine. Check this out:

Read these each over and over with an emphasis on the bold number: 1-2-1-2-3
and this 1-2-3-1-2. Be steady in the pace of your counting.

In these patterns, you are counting aloud the eight notes. In these odd meters like this, there is usually an emphasis, just like when you are counting here, on the beginning of the parts that are grouped together. For instance, in the 5/8 meters, the composer will group two beats of different lengths in one measure: short-long or long-short (most of the time).

Try this. Tap these beats steadily as you say the numbers aloud like above:

||: 1-2-1-2-3 | 1-2-1-2-3 | 1-2-1-2-3 :||

That would be a 5/8 pattern of eighth-notes with a short-long feel to the measure. The first beat in the measure feels odd compared to the second beat.

The measures can be the opposite as well:

||: 1-2-3-1-2 | 1-2-3-1-2 | 1-2-3-1-2 :||

Fun is when they mix them up:

||: 1-2-3-1-2 | 1-2-1-2-3 | 1-2-3-1-2 :|| [wink]

7/8 merely adds another little chunk to deal with. Now we will have three beats in a measure, usually two shorts and a long grouped in any order.

For example: 1-2-1-2-1-2-3

And these can be grouped in any order like that or this:

||: 1-2-1-2-3-1-2 :||

or this

||: 1-2-3-1-2-1-2 :||

If you can visualize notes in a measure better, ||: 1-2-3-1-2-1-2 :||
would be like ||: dotted-quarter - quarter - quarter :||, for example. The key to getting the feel for these meters is to keep the tapping/eighth-notes steady and placing emphasis on the ones as bolded.

As for your conductor, he/she will probably conduct normal 2 and 3 patterns but drag out one of the beats in the pattern...hesitating on the long one. Once you get the gist of it, you can do two things to help yourself: conduct (the way your director does) and sing the part when you're by yourself and put marks above the beats in the measure if they are changing back and forth. I use a single downward mark for the short beats (two eighth-note value) and a triangle for the beats with three eighth-note values in them whether it be three eighths beamed together or a dotted-quarter, etc.

Hope this helps. I'm sure someone will quickly point you to a webpage with graphics and sounds, etc. that will make it all perfectly clear. I just felt like explaining it here. [wink]

Take Care,

Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!

Post Edited (2005-01-24 22:23)

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 Re: Reading odd meters
Author: mkybrain 
Date:   2005-01-24 22:13

ahhh, brings back fond memories of armenian dances part 1

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 Re: Reading odd meters
Author: Robert Moody 
Date:   2005-01-24 22:27

Refering to Armenian Dances, it is odd, I thought, that even though our saxophone players are supposed to be "Charlie One" certified (Army talk for "real good"), they had the hardest time reading their solo in that piece.

Hmmmpf.

Wonderful piece though. Wonderful.

Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!

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 Re: Reading odd meters
Author: sfalexi 
Date:   2005-01-24 22:36

How about saying "I like watermelon" to get you in the mood. Tap your fingers on "I" and "Wa" in watermelon.

Just a thought.

Alexi

US Army Japan Band

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 Re: Reading odd meters
Author: vin 
Date:   2005-01-25 00:35

I don't mean to be a dolt, but doesn't watermelon have 4 syllables?

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 Re: Reading odd meters
Author: DavidBlumberg 
Date:   2005-01-25 00:50

5

You have 5 fingers


1 2 3 4 5

Also get a recording of the piece. Let me know if you need help finding a recording of it.

david@(nospam)mytempo.com



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 Re: Reading odd meters
Author: Katrina 
Date:   2005-01-25 02:32

Recordings of eastern European folk music also can come in handy for the "feel" of these rhythms. Just about any generic "Greek folk music" cd, cassette, whatever, will have some things you can use.

Katrina
http://www.rogaria.com

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 Re: Reading odd meters
Author: sfalexi 
Date:   2005-01-25 02:33

Yes, watermelon does. Maybe it was a different word I used to use. I can't remember. And I really need to think before I type.

I'll ask the music instructor at school on Thursday and report back. He had a great one.

Alexi

US Army Japan Band

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 Re: Reading odd meters
Author: Hank Lehrer 
Date:   2005-01-25 02:54

Robert,

That is a very fine explanation in your original post. Using the bold for the major beats is an important point.

Nice work.

HRL

PS The use of 7/8 seems to be the rage now in band compositions :-).



Post Edited (2005-01-25 03:02)

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 Re: Reading odd meters
Author: GBK 
Date:   2005-01-25 02:59

For 5/4 time, think of the words cafeteria or pharmaceutical ...GBK

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 Re: Reading odd meters
Author: mkybrain 
Date:   2005-01-25 03:14

i prefer metaphysical

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 Re: Reading odd meters
Author: clarinetist04 
Date:   2005-01-25 04:54

Two good points (without going into the gory details like Mr. Moody did) are to get a recording of the piece (which helped when I played it) and count the rhythms in groups of two and three. Remember, the eighth note carries the beat. When you get to the 8/8 bars, they are 3-3-2 (two groups of three and a group of two, as I remember). Good luck!

-Robert

P.S.--- Armenian Dances I and II are two of my ALL TIME favorite pieces for band...the first set is by far more challenging (technically anyway) but SOOOOOOOOO fun to play! Played that in high school...same concert (I think, but I may be off) as Hammersmith and Slava! That was an interesting concert.

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 Re: Reading odd meters
Author: clarnibass 
Date:   2005-01-25 06:16

Iacuras, do you know hte specific piece? If you do tht is great, but if not then there are other ways to count 5/8 and 7/8 like moody said.

Robert, just to add that 7/8 can also be 1,2-1,2,3-1,2 (how to write in bold?)

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 Re: Reading odd meters
Author: LeWhite 
Date:   2005-01-25 06:56

I use "Bloody Difficult" for 5/8, but this way, it never is.

__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! [down]Buffet

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 Re: Reading odd meters
Author: mkybrain 
Date:   2005-01-25 13:05

We played Armenian Dances my freshman year, I was second chair so I had to deal with that little duet between myself and the first chair(I got it down first btw though he would never admit to it). My band director was a student of the man, I think he said his name was Dr Beijan(SP?) who was the source of the melodies that Alfred Reed used for Armenian Dances, so he knew the piece well which made it all the more enjoyable to play. He also says it is his favorite band piece of all time.

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 Re: Reading odd meters
Author: bob49t 
Date:   2005-01-25 16:48

for 5/8 - hipp-o-pot-a-mus
for 7/8 - ba-by-hipp-o-pot-a-mus.

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 Re: Reading odd meters
Author: music_is_life 
Date:   2005-02-21 02:26

ok- 5/8 can be broken up into either 12-123 or 123-12, correct? but how does one decide on which one to use? Especially in etudes (so no conductor to base anything off of)

I have a piece in 7/8:

8th, 2 16ths, 8th, 2 16ths, 3 8ths. It reads like this: the first 6 notes are beamed together and then the last three notes are beamed together. I would suspect that the last part of that measure would be 123, but how is the beginning?

(also- above the measure it says "4+3" in parenthesis, then in the next measure says "3+4"...does that imply that it would be 12-12-123/ 123-12-12??)

I hope I explained that alright

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 Re: Reading odd meters
Author: LeWhite 
Date:   2005-02-21 04:00

Correct.

__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! [down]Buffet

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 Re: Reading odd meters
Author: Kalakos 
Date:   2005-02-21 08:20

Hi Folks: In Greek folk music (and perhaps similarly in other Balkan music) the mixed meters are based on a dance beat. The most common 7/8 in Greek is for the Kalamatianos dance. The dance steps would be 3 per measure, counted to a ratio of 1 1/2 to 1 to 1, (the ancient Greek epitrite) or dotted quarter/quarter/quarter. The internal rhythm is the full 7, but the melodies may be playing quarters, eighth, sixteenths, or whatever within the framework of 3 + 2 + 2. It is not really arbitrary.
The metric pattern for a different dance might be in a different order as others have suggested. For instance in the Lazikos dance the meter is 7/8 and would be arranged 2 + 2 + 3 but the rhythm of the melody or dance step or melody might be played as 2 + 2 + 1 + 2 (and if sped up for other dances like the Bulgarian Ruchenitsa it would be in 16ths instead of eighths. Then there are the Nines, the Elevens, the Fives, the Seven plus Fives for a 12/8; 3, 2, 3 + 3, 2 (Levendikos or Berance) and so many more. It is really quite exciting and lovely, but gets complicated if you're playing the folk music in authentic style.
Many of the people on our great list play all kinds of music, especially classic, and it's all over my head (even though I love to read all the posts), but this is my kind of music, and I hope I've shared something with you. (We haven't even touched the modes, though!!!) LOL
http://www.greekfolkmusicanddance.com
Best regards,

Kalakos
Kalakos Music
http://www.TAdelphia.com



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