 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-01-14 15:17
I have a question for all of you teachers out there. I have a student who I have only taught for about 6 weeks. I noticed a heaviness in her tonguing technique so asked her to show me how she tongued.. After some investigation I found out that she's anchor tonguing. At least that's what I was taught that it's called. She is placing her tip of her tongue behind the front, lower teeth and tonguing the tip of the reed with the middle, thick part of her tonque. It makes a very thuddy, slow tonguing sound. I have had her start over with beginning tonguing techniques but with the frustrations mounting am now wondering if there are just people out there that are successful in anchor tonquing and if she would be one of them. She is cooperative but frustrated. She took two years of private instruction before I got her and her teacher before me didn't change her. She is a freshman in high school and is second chair orchestra and third chair band. My gut feeling is she needs to change now. She is wanting to go to contest and play a solo on April 8 though and the one she has chosen has so many different articulations that I think she will struggle tremendously. Her long term goals are to major in the arts of some type. Voice, piano, clarinet, dance......who knows right now. What would you all do if she were your student?
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-01-14 15:30
For an explanation of anchor tonguing, its advantages and disadvantages and exercises for switching, see http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=6899&t=6887.
I think it's worthwhile to switch. Certainly my tonguing improved when I did. Three months is enough time. Emphasize to your student that she'll never lose the ability to anchor tongue. If she gets nervous at the contest and doesn't think she can tongue tip-to-tip, she can always switch back.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Contra
Date: 2005-01-15 02:10
I never had a problem with that. OF course, it took me six years to figure out that the way I was tonguing was deemed wrong. It's hard as the dickens to switch once you're used to anchoring it.
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Author: FoxeyJ
Date: 2005-01-15 03:20
I would get one of those little red straws you find at coffee shops. Have her blow through it, and try tounging on that....maybe it will help her find the right spot for her tongue inside of her mouth.
Stop tonguing also works. where you play a scale (or any passage) slowly - putting your tongue on the reed, then moving your fingers to the next note with the reed stopped by the tongue (always with the air behind it) then taking the tongue off of the reed after you have moved your finger. These two things helped me to tongue correctly after years of struggling!
Good luck!
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-01-15 04:43
Maybe if the young lady adds her upper lip into the fray she can simply call herself a convert to the "French Style Embouchure" and follow the teachings of Mr. Edmund Lee here http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Palace/5825/embouchure.htm . ![[right]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie8.gif)
Sorry, I just responded to another post on that link and the sarcasm is just bursting out of me.
As for the anchor tonguing issue, unless your young lady simply has a "large tongue" for her mouth, I would continue to seek out methods of helping her switch. If, in fact, she DOES have a large tongue for her mouth size (how you determine that is a good guess...I guess ), then anchor tonguing might actually be a good method for her. Switching away may cause airflow problems for her that manifest themselves in other ways.
Good luck to you. It looks like there was a good link offered early on there.
Take care,
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: mkybrain
Date: 2005-01-15 21:28
LOL@ Moody's sarcasm
......anyway, i used to anchor tongue, and actually figured it out myself and told my teacher. Basically all i did was i started using the just a little bit before the tip of my tongue in private practice(i could not just switch when playing for other people at first). I also went through the entire "Kell's staccato studies", that being the single most important thing that helped me develope normal tonguing skills. It starts off really easy and gets to a medium difficulty i guess. It really is a pain to go through them all but after doing them i could easily toungue twice as fast and i was more precise.
Probably the biggest problem for me was the beggining. I would move my jaw when i tried to tongue regularly, which caused squeeeeeks, lots of em. After i got past that it just took a little bit of practice out of the Kell each day to fix it.
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-01-16 01:22
<<LOL@ Moody's sarcasm>>
Thank you Chris for your insightful and genuine comments about my comments. Singly, YOU have shown intelligence and intuition beyond the comprehension of most mortals. Your participation is greatly appreciated.
Take care,
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: Katelyn
Date: 2005-01-16 21:15
*laughs*
I think I anchor tongue. Wait, *tries tonging* I do. And I thought I was doing so well lol I guess I'll have to fix that too. I was wondering why I couldn't go so fast no matter how much I practiced. Grrr. So many problems, so little time.
^b^ <---flying flat
~Katelyn
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-01-17 05:22
Thanks for all the helpful comments and the link to the old thread. I read the thread by Ken and it has been most helpful. Mr. Moody you make me laugh. I read somewhere that you attended the Conservatory at UMKC. I live in the KC area and know of the school well.
You are right in that it is impossible to be able to tell how a person is holding their tongue to be able to help them with how they're supposed to hold it during play. I've always wondered how to explain to someone how to place their tongue in their mouth. With this anchor tonguing it's difficult to explain where it goes. I can tell her where it doesn't go but I can't tell her where it does go.
How long did it take all of you who have done the changeover from anchor tonguing to tip to tip tonguing?? How long before you would play a solo performance and feel comfortable with it? Thanks for your help. I've not heard of the Kell's staccato studies book before. Is it an old one and where would I find it?
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Author: jArius
Date: 2005-01-17 06:39
That reminds me of my problem...
For about 7 years I would just touch the roof of my mouth with my tongue and not touch the reed at all. Does that have a name, or is it an original sin...?
I didn't even know that was wrong until my private teacher pointed it out (when he had stopped guffawing)
I'm still trying to recover from that habit
Jeremy Bruins
Proud member of the too-much-time-on-my-hands club.
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Author: mkybrain
Date: 2005-01-17 16:47
I think i ordered Kell's staccato studies from something called Snell, i really dont remember since its been a few years. I'd bet if u called any phone order company, since thats what i ordered mine from, they'd probably have them available.
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2005-01-17 18:08
It's amazing how many students were never taught how to tongue. I wasn't. I don't remember more than just a couple of instructions when I was in the 6th grade (in 1961) on tonguing. Then it was from the band director who played the trumpet and didn't care much about the clarinet section. So we stunk. Later on in Jr. Hi. (or Middle School), the band was much larger and the section much larger as well--so no time for instruction there.
Just an unpleasant memory.
Tonguing can be a hard thing to relearn.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-01-17 18:48
I reedited a post that I posted to another therad:
The most important thing is that everybody find a way of tonguing that works the best for them. I'm under the impression that American clarinettists are far more rigid than other nationalities in their opinion that tip-to-tip tonguing is the only acceptable way. To me this is ONE acceptable way of many, if it works for you.
As I've mentioned before I used to know a girl who used the bottom side of her tongue. She sounded just fine and very fast too. Another friend of mine in Germany uses the very back of his tongue close to the root, putting the tip of his tongue like a curl behind his teeth. His reflexes at the back are much quicker than his tip. He has a prestigious job in an orchestra. This is probably similar to what the Americans call "anchor tonguing". What's wrong with that if it works, and why making such a fuzz about it as if it were a paria?
Alphie
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Author: Robert Moody
Date: 2005-01-17 21:13
I am on my way to go practice the Zigeunerweisen and I noticed some new posts. Just wanted to note something since it came up...
Alphie wrote:
> As I've mentioned before I used to know a girl who used the
> bottom side of her tongue. She sounded just fine and very fast
> too. Another friend of mine in Germany uses the very back of
> his tongue close to the root, putting the tip of his tongue
> like a curl behind his teeth. His reflexes at the back are much
> quicker than his tip. He has a prestigious job in an orchestra.
> This is probably similar to what the Americans call "anchor
> tonguing". What's wrong with that if it works, and why making
> such a fuzz about it as if it were a paria?
>
> Alphie
I'm not picking on you Alphie, just noting something from experience as a teacher. You bring up a good point and everyone should understand possible answers to it.
One possible answer, and in my book the main issue, is that usually the best path to travel is the one time-tested. Taking a side-road is okay if needed, but we are often better assured of getting somewhere by taking the road MORE traveled. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Here's what I mean: Anchor tonguing obviously works for some. There is no doubt and I hope no-one tries to argue otherwise. But for the majority, anchor tonguing is most likely to limit their articulation abilities. As an instructor I would recognize anchor tonguing as an option and tool when needed. But I would teach the more successful method of tip-to-tip first and only move to anchor tonguing after the tried-n-true does not work.
Where's my evidence? [Sorry...still reeling from a previous post(er).] My evidence comes from years of experience with students and those same years of reading magazine articles, Klarinet list postings and other postings found in various places.
This is a case of I would encourage a new person or young student not to get lured into the "superstar so-n-so does it, so it must be the best way" thinking. I think you are only saying that it is acceptable and works, and I agree. Just hope to make it clear to others reading that while it works for some, it is not the "best" method for "most". ![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif)
Take care,
Robert Moody
http://www.musix4me.com
Free Clarinet Lessons and Digital Library!
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-01-17 22:49
What I'm mainly turning against is to put "labels" on certain types of attacks other than what you can call them with musical terms. To me the tongue is simply a device to create a sound or an effect or a type of flow I want when connecting notes together when forming a phrase. Whether I “tip-to-tip”, “anchor”, “flip-flap”, “side-to-side”, “close-to-the-tip”, “close-to-the-root” or simply “no-tongue-at-all”, all depends on what I want to achieve at the moment. All of these examples are hard to execute if there is TENSION in the tongue. If there is no tension involved and the tongue is relaxed and free to move you can use it any way you like.
I’ve never been taught how to tongue other than using my ears. My first teacher after having decided to spend my life as a clarinettist was a former student of Rudolf Jettel’s in Vienna. He proclaimed using very hard reeds playing the entire scale book by Jettel including the staccato section. This was just like any physical training session. He could hear every time I was using more tension than necessary. He was a joker so every time this eventually happened he used to come up close to my ear and shout: “RELAX YOUR TONGUE”. I had him for five years, God bless his soul.
I’m turning against formalism, a teacher telling you “how it is”. As somebody said, it’s very difficult to change a way of tonguing if you only know one way. Relaxation is the key word. Then use your ears, imagination and creativity when playing music.
Alphie
Post Edited (2005-01-17 22:50)
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-01-18 13:51
I didn't mean to stir up such controversy about the whole tonguing issue but I will address one point you bring up Alphie. I wrote in to the board because anchor tonguing is NOT working for this young lady but I agree that it may work for some people. She has an incredibly hard sound to her articulation and can't tongue rapidly at all. She is certainly one who would benefit from switching over to the tip to tip method, in my opinion, but HOW to do it and not frustrate her so terribly in the mean time is the real kicker here. She also has responsibilities in her HS band and orchestra not to mention the fact that she wants to take a solo to contest in 12 weeks. If she were to do nothing else in life but go to school and work on tonguing it could probably be done but.......I don't think that can happen. I am thinking she just needs to wait for a year on the solo at contest but it's hard for me as her teacher to DISCOURAGE her from that learning experience. There are so many students that go to contest unprepared and I think she would be one of them this year.
It's like we are going back to the elementary level that Brenda talked about to re-learn how to tongue but she is playing high school level music. It's just not working on a day to day basis for her. They are playing "Procession of the Nobles" right now and that has some rapid articulation passages that she just can't do. We have slowed it down to a snail's pace and she can do it at that tempo. It will take time to get some strength in her tongue and embouchure. Thanks again for all the good advice on the methods. I will try some of this with her.
Rebecca
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2005-01-18 19:47
And I'm not saying that she should proceed doing something that obviously doesn’t work. It probably doesn’t work because there is too much tension in the tongue. I used a quote once from Frederick Thurston’s book “Clarinet Technique”. This is by far the best description of a correct basic tongue position that I’ve seen:
...."Now try to find out which part of the tongue will contact the tip of the reed most easily. While the tongue lies relaxed in the mouth its tip can be felt just behind the bottom teeth. When you put the mouthpiece into your mouth the tongue must merely be but slightly forward and upward to make contact with the reed.
You will probably feel the reed (and perhaps the tip of the mouthpiece) 'cutting' across your tongue about 1/4 to 1/2 inch away from its tip. I consider this the normal position for most players"...
I highly recommend the book. "Oxford University Press"
Good luck,
Alphie
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Author: marcia
Date: 2005-01-18 20:31
Thank you Alphie for that description. I have been doing that very thing for all my years of playing. When I first heard the terms "tip to tip" and "anchor tonguing" (after many years of playing) I thought to my dismay that I had been anchor tonguing, which is often presented as "the WRONG way" but now I am thinking that I am allright after all.
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-01-19 06:01
I remember reading either that very passage or one very similar to it while in school and realizing I was okay too. I knew I didn't play with the actual tip of my tongue but for lack of any other way of describing it easily we always referred to this type of tonguing as tip to tip. It's not exactly the very tip of the reed either. Just ever so slightly below the tip and about 1/4" from the tip of the tongue for me.
I used to "tongue" by simply stopping the airflow with the back of by tongue against my throat. I took lessons in ninth grade and was busted. Brenda was right about many of us not learning how to tongue right in elementary school. I happened to be absent the day they taught it. Changing was really hard but I had an awesome private teacher and I was so determined. I didn't take a solo to contest either. This is something that seperates me from what my student is doing. She will get it with some determination and good instruction.
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