 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-01-04 16:49
Hello BB friends,
I teach private clarinet lessons on soprano Bb clarinet but have never been asked to teach the bass clarinet. I just got a call today from the middle school teacher asking me to teach two students who will be switching from Bb to bass. I haven't even played bass since college and that was just a brief playing a best.
I need some help in getting these young ones started with a good method book and I also need to be able to tell them what kind of reeds,strength and mouthpieces would be best for them. Any suggestions would be welcome. Any good reading material for me would also be good as I need to brush up on my info too. I have no doubt about my musical abilities .....it's just the individual needs of the bass that I'm uncertain about. I think my biggest question is about the embouchure !
Thank you!!
Rebecca
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-01-04 17:25
You have come to the right group of people, Rebecca, we have continuing discussion of these things and much info already in our searchable archives, try some specific searches. Also there is a bass-clarinet group among the Yahoo.com groups where a number of pro players/teachers go into details deeply. Re: emb. etc, [for me] more relaxed, sax-like, softer reeds on a wider/longer lay mp, Pomarico glasses are my best, custom mades and refaced Selmer C*'s are also V G. More? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: William
Date: 2005-01-04 18:29
I recommend (and use) a Walter Grabner refaced Selmer C* mouthpiece--he calls it his CXBS model (Clarinet Express Bass Selmer). And, to eliminate any reed problems associated with the switch, I would use Legere #3s. They are consistant and always play--and are every bit as good sounding as cane. I use them for orchestral and wind ensemble playing and usually get complimented for my "big" sound.
Post Edited (2005-01-04 18:33)
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Author: Wicked Good ★2017
Date: 2005-01-04 20:23
The best student bass clarinet mouthpiece I have tried was a Jewel Concert. It gave a nice, rich and full sound that still projected well. For my own symphonic and pit band use, I nearly chose it over the Ridenour that I ended up buying, and I liked it better than the Pomarico crystal mouthpieces I tried.
I do not use bass clarinet reeds, though - I use tenor saxophone reeds instead. I like the response better, but as always, different strokes for different folks.
Good luck!
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-01-04 21:25
Thanks for all the info so far. I will do some researching of the suggestions given but now I have another question or two.
I played tenor sax in high school quite a bit. Is the embouchure similar enough for both the tenor sax and the bass clarinet? If so then I'll do okay. If not then I need a lot more help.
Also, and I'm really showing my stupidity here, do some bass clarinetists use a neck strap and some use the floor peg? It seems that I've seen both. If so, then what's the best for a beginner at the seventh or eighth grade level?
Thanks again,
Rebecca
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Author: Iacuras
Date: 2005-01-04 22:46
Rebecca, I started Bass in eight grade, and only used a neck strap, then in ninth as well, only a neck strap, but when I got my own bass that came with a peg, I liked it so much better. It takes so much of the weight off the neck and is much more comfortable. If they have a peg, they should use it. Personnaly, I use both a peg and a neck strap. Hope this helps. I would suggest using about a half a strength lower Bass reeds than the ones they use on Bb clarinet.
Steve
"If a pretty poster and a cute saying are all it takes to motivate you, you probably have a very easy job. The kind robots will be doing soon."
"If you can't learn to do something well, learn to enjoy doing it poorly."
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2005-01-04 23:37
I've been a lurker on this site for some months, at the behest of my friend Dave Spiegelthal. The amount of dubious advice given here to RC clarinet lady has finally moved me off the dime!
First of all, I wonder if it really ethical for someone who really does not play bass clarinet to be teaching young students an instrument that they do not fully understand. Everytime I'm involved in adjudicating high school solo and ensemble festivals, I have to grit my teeth over some of the nasty bass clarinet playing I hear--and these are largely kids who have private teachers! I certainly would not allow myself to teach saxophone--an instrument I sort of play--relying on the kind advice of well-meaning strangers on an open forum, as this is. (There is a yahoo bass clarinet group where you are, perhaps, more likely to get specialized intelligence, but even that is IMO suspect).
I've fed a family of four (kind of like a large pizza) playing bass clarinet in major symphony orchestras, and other assorted gigs, for upwards of 45 years, so I hope I can represent myself as some sort of maven in this area. Every single one of the replies you have received contains, in addition to some good advice, highly controversial anomalies too numerous to address here.
I f you are serious about teaching bass clarinet, why don't you go out and take a couple of lessons with your local symphony's bass clarinetist? Would you teach swimming to kids on the basis of replies to a query in a web forum? I think this is a similar situation!
Larry Bocaner
National Symphony Orchestra (retired)
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Author: kal
Date: 2005-01-05 00:21
HI, RC. I offer a somewhat unique (backwards) perspective: I actually started on bass, played it exclusively all through school, and started experimenting with soprano in college. I watched two of my HS classmates (who were both very good sop. players) struggle with the switch to bass for almost a year. Based on my observations of them, here are a few suggestions to make it easier for your students:
Don't have them start off on anything harder than a #2.5 reed, no matter what they were using before. Get them comfortable in the lower register before you start to go over the break; most student-level basses are notorious for being incredibly resistant in the clarion register. If their horns have pegs, use them. Not only are they more comfortable, as Iacuras said, but it can be very difficult to nail fingerings on a bass while supporting its weight in your hands. Note, however, that the use of a peg changes the angle of the mouthpiece. This is where proper embouchure comes in (if you've ever seen young bass players craning their heads back, you know what you have to avoid). Since you said you don't play bass yourself, if you know someone you can bring in a few times to work with them on their embouchures, dropping their jaws, etc. it might be a good idea.
Best of luck!
- kal
Post Edited (2005-01-05 00:24)
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Author: Frodo
Date: 2005-01-05 01:44
This is also my problem but from the opposite end. I play the Bb and want to take lessons on the Bass clarinet which I’ve been dabbling in for a few months now. But I know for a fact that my Bb teacher does not play BC (although she’ll probably say she can give me lessons on it also) and don’t know of anyone else who can teach it where I am. With all due respect to your teaching skills but as a student I would prefer to take lessons from someone who really knows the instrument. I would second the suggestion of Larry.
Why don’t you take some teaching lessons yourself first on the BC before attempting to teach it. Otherwise it will be like the blind leading the blind with bystanders shouting directions from the sidelines. You may both get to where you’re going but it would be a long tortuous process for both of you and your students. After all if the students are bright enough they’ll learn soon enough that you don’t know anything about what you’re teaching. This won’t be good for your overall reputation as a teacher.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-01-05 02:16
I've noted the large number of alto and bass clarinet mouthpieces on eBay and have theorized that these are all "purchased for a student" mouthpieces that were used on school horns.
1) With that in mind, I'd not (as a long time player and teacher of the bass clarinet back in the old days) hesitate to recommend a reasonably priced mouthpiece (I'd shoot for a C or C* Selmer, myself) for a student. (I (and most parents) would draw the line at anything more expensive.)
2) Reed selection I always made on a trial basis. I kept a box of each strength on hand, and let them range through the 2, 2.5, and (for a few, more advanced players) 3. Most ended up on the 2 with a proper "loose" bass embouchure.
3) The next thing that I would look into is if the school can "award" a horn for the exclusive use of the student. Some can, some can't, and other schools can but instead just keep them all in a pool for all to use. By getting a horn into the hands of one student and one only, you will make the greatest contribution to the success of that student, since sole control in the hands of a caring, responsible student will ensure that the damn thing doesn't get bashed all to hell five times a week.
I have had struggling bass clarinet players turn into boy and girl wonders simply by keeping them on a properly adjusted horn. The squeeks (usually attributed to the reed, but actually due to poorly sealed tone holes) go away, the register jump stops being an ordeal, and suddenly they find that they can play real clarinet music as well as plodding bass parts.
4) Once the basics of one time up the horn have been mastered, I kept their little fingers busy. My sessions consisted of one third "drills" (I used the Lazarus method at the end, not the best choice for the Boehm system clarinet, but still challenging on any system), one third school music (from their band class), and one third "fun" (duets, or SSA arrangements with an overlap between two students to come up with the three players needed). Tuning was taught on an ongoing basis, rather than spending five minutes trying to tune in the abstract. Ditto with tempo and dynamics - I did these in conjunction with everything else, in a unified field sort of manner. (But, not articulation - that was done with repetitive exercises, just like I learned it.)
5) For those who seem serious and committed, I (at the end of a couple of months period (before Christmas)) would recommend to parents who wanted to hear me that they should consider purchasing a new student horn. I lay out the plusses (it starts out in good shape and the student can keep it in good shape, it can be tuned by a competent technician, it give the student pride of ownership) with the one big minus (you'll only recover half of the $900.00 purchase price if you sell). Fortunately, most of my students in the small town in which I taught came from the affluent side of town.
7) You've got to fight the "boring bass clarinet" syndrome. The music that these kids play on a daily basis is about as boring as can be imagined. Even the "contest" level bass clarinet stuff in high school (at least what I've seen) is about as exciting as a bass drum part. They all learned their share of that, but I also threw in stuff from orchestral excerpt books (one advanced high schooler even got to learn how to play Wagner from an A bass part), movements from the Mozart Bassoon Concerto, and the like. And, there's a whole world of clarinet music that will serve pretty well should you run out of ideas.
Anyway, that's what I did…
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-01-05 04:14
To those of you who have taken your precious time to give me your wonderful advice......... I thank you. I have learned a tremendous amount of info on the bass clarinet.
To those of you who suggest that I take some lessons myself and learn the instrument myself before I teach it......... you can't believe for one second that I didn't think of that already. I appreciate what you are saying and I agree with you! I may just do that but until then I would never try to coach a kid on a contest piece. I am in no way qualified to do that. The band director is asking me if I can help switch these beginning bass clarinet players over from soprano and I think I know enough to do that. I will try to help find these students a fine bass clarinet teacher in our area before they even get close to contest time. They are middle schoolers and I will start the search for a teacher and tell the parents. The band director knows me and wants to switch soon so he called me. I'm willing to work with them now but will send them on to a more qualified teacher very soon. Until that time I now know what strength reed to start with and that the peg is probably the best way to go with beginners.
Larry, I am not serious about teaching bass clarinet for any length of time. If I am in the future I will take some lessons. I am concerned about getting these two students switched over properly and then on to a more qualified teacher. I had a laugh about your swim lesson analogy though. I doubt very much that my teaching bass clarinet could be as life threatening as my teaching swim lessons!! I certainly hope not anyway. (ha ha)
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Author: allencole
Date: 2005-01-05 05:27
I would like to hear Larry's suggestions on lesson literature. I have been thrust into a situation for the last couple of years where I have bass clarinet students who do not own a soprano clarinet at all. They are strictly bass clarinet players, who I have also taught to double on bari sax for marching band and jazz ensemble.
In their earlier years, they tend to have student-line Selmer and Vito products and this puts some limits on their range--and thus the literature they can use--due to issues of responsiveness on these instruments. Fortunately, my two top guys have Selmer pro-line low-C instruments provided by their school.
For the time being, I've been using Accent on Achievement Book 3 (which has exercises in all major and minor keys) and two books from the Belwin Student Instrumental Course: Tunes for Bass Clarinet Technic [sic] and Bass Clarinet Student.
These guys are in level 2 of the Belwin course, and I am biting my nails about what to do with them when they exhaust level 3. I'm also concerned that if either of them really hit their stride and start to get aspirations, the need to handle the soprano is going to hit them pretty hard. Another concern is that upon graduation they may have no instruments to play at all.
Allen Cole
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2005-01-05 12:51
I wish that all kids playing the bass clarinet would have access to an insightful teacher like Terry; I think he really hit the mark with his post!
Bearing in mind, Allen, that I don't usually teach beginners (I've made exceptions where a student has a strong background in piano or some other wind instrument) I like to start new middle school or 9th graders in the Rubank Intermediate method, largely because it has good coverage of the chromatic scale and middling good of the major and minor scales. I try to get the kids up to high g on the instrument as soon as possible, because I think the presumed difficulty of the high notes on bcl is, to a great extent, psychological. (I've enjoyed the flabbergasted feedback from some school band directors when kids played chromatic scales for them up to high g after only a few lessons).
For students that I think can handle it, I like to follow the Rubank with David Hite's Melodious and Progressive studies; then the Rose 40 and 32 (also in the Hite edition). I don't care at all for the presumed "bass clarinet" method books--they only perpetuate the "dumb" bass clarinet aura. For solos, you could start with the Concert and Contest collection, several of them are on the festival list in grades 3 and 4 here in Virginia. I try to avoid the ones that don't venture above the chalumeau register.
Finally, Allen, the student line instruments, properly adjusted, should have no problem playing the entire range--same as soprano Bb clarinets. Most bass clarinet "convertees" (and this includes even professionals that I've coached) have no conception of the amount of air that it takes to properly play the bcl!
Best wishes and good luck to all,
Larry
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Author: Francesca
Date: 2005-01-05 19:58
I guess I've never understood why some people insist on different literature for teaching bass clarinet. The technique (especially embouchure) difference between bass and soprano is significant and should be taught properly. For me, though, the repertoire doesn't have to be different. I started on bass and have continued it through college. I started with the Rose 32 Etudes, went through Baermann, Jean-Jean, Uhl, and quite a few other books just fine. I concur with somebody's above statement about certain books just perpetuating the bass clarinet sterotype of low notes and whole notes. Once your beginners have a solid foundation on bass clarinet, treat them as you would any of your other clarinetists.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-01-05 22:16
Well, I've got Larry snowed, that's for sure…
Seriously, the one thing that I stress over and over again for people teaching music with "younger" students is to make the learning in some way relevant to the rest of the world, not just to the rarified world of instrumental music.
I said a number of things that were basically my rearrangement of what most of us who have taught have come up with in one form or another. However, if I had to have one thing out of all that I said above that I would maintain would help students, it would be that of the ensemble playing at the "little level" of duos and trios of music that a parent and friend can recognize.
The Soprano-Soprano-Alto vocal arrangements, dirt cheap ($5.00 each) medleys of "modern" tunes set for three voices (SSA) plus piano accompaniment) offer it all.
• They're cheap and available off of the rack, for the most part. Five bux for three well arranged songs joined together in a coherent whole. I spread the load, giving parents the assignment to buy one a month over the second half of the year. The kids had their own "legal" parts, and I would step from one to another as the situation demanded.
• They're "topical" (music that others (and the players) will actually recognize, rather than something like Etude 56b in Ab). Mind you, I fully well know that the etudes and studies are necessary, But, most non-clarinet players rapidly tire of "all clarinet technique" stuff pretty quickly (as in twenty seconds or so. Students only last slightly longer.
• They're within the reach of all of the players, even if two are students (trust the limited range of the female voice for that)
• They "share the glory" as far as who is featured (i.e, the lead is not always in the Soprano I part; both Soprano II and Alto will carry the load for part of the time in most arrangements)
• Being vocal parts, they're not too complicated, while at the same time the students learn about more than rigid conventional rhythm and phrasing.
• They provided ample bass clarinet parts (in the form of the Alto line) that were much more than "stupid bass clarinet parts". One student actually cried when she got to play "the lead" on one of them - having been stuck on the bass in concert bands in the past, I can't say that I wouldn't have done the same in her shoes.
The only downer about the whole deal was that (since we were all in Bb, the piano part had to be omitted (unless you can find a transposer on the keyboard, of course; I never tried to get the students to transpose so we could play along with the piano).
I would introduce these by starting with a set of them that I had kept "hidden" from the students until they had mastered the necessities to play at a "competent" level for their age. Then, we would start by rehearsing each part for about ten minutes at the end of the early private lessons (during 'wind down' time). Then, I would spring the whole thing on the parents a week before we would "perform" for the first time, asking for early arrival/late departure at their lesson on that date. It was like filling everyone's expectations full of helium, and the next set (purchased during the following week by the parents) would often come to the lesson fully rehearsed without any prompting on my part.
I would say that the "overlap" times when we would do these (they overlapped by having one student stay fifteen minutes longer, the next one got there fifteen minutes earlier, and both parents were invited to listen if they wished) were the best part of the instructional period for all involved.
• The kids got to hear something that they were possibly going to hear outside of the concert band room (some of you may go around humming "Blaze Of Glory - A Concert March", but I daresay that most of the rest of the world does not).
• They got to play the "lead" as well as to learn how to harmonize. One of the things that leads to poor attitude in music is the perpetual imprisonment in what used to be called "peck horn" parts. When you're a bass clarinet players, most teachers only offered studies and more of the same old line that they're bored to death with at school. This approach offers a third way.
• Finally they were learning something that none of the other students were able to count in their accomplishments. Anybody can play a chromatic scale; my kids could also play doo-wop in the bargain. Never assume that you have exhausted all motivation tools in music until you try this one.
In short, I can't recommend this approach too much. And, all at a reasonable price for everyone concerned.
These arrangements are available in huge numbers at any well stocked sheet music store. They're in the vocal section, not in the instrument section, and they're so cheap because all you get is one page with all four lines on same (S-S-A plus piano). Ignore the piano part, maybe drop a bridge or two here or there where the piano part is too essential, and go to town. You'll enjoy yourself, and your students will thank you for it in the bargain.
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Author: William
Date: 2005-01-06 01:01
I always insisted that my middle school students use both floor peg and neck strap. However, when I play my own low C bass, I use only the floor peg. "Do as I say and not as I do", I guess :>)
As for literature, an experianced bass clarinetist should be able to play almost everything that is playable on the soprano clarinet. The sky's the limit for material to study bass clarinet from. Go for it..........
Post Edited (2005-01-06 01:05)
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2005-01-06 03:22
Terry,
Thanks for the great tip on the music. I had planned on having my new bcl students play much more than the standard issue band music but I didn't know what books worked best. The SSA format should work quite well and we have a lot of choral music around here to choose from. Having students switch parts around is just a good idea. You never know when you have a leader if you don't give them to chance to lead once in awhile.
With this approach to playing in their lessons they will have the joy of playing a wonderful instrument AND get to play more challenging music. I wish I'd have had someone work with me on bcl when I had the chance. I just didn't want to play the standard bcl music. My fingers wanted to "fly" so I declined playing any further. I hope they will learn a lot from me but I will still seek out a pro. bcl teacher for them. You all have helped me tremendously with the rep., reeds and mpc. issues. Thanks.
Rebecca
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