 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-12-27 21:29
Hi,
I always look back at the threads that are posted for review with newer messages and you know what, if the thread is older than about 2- 3 years, I hardly recognize the names.
There are a few possible answers as to why this phenomena exists:
1. A screenname change
2. No longer interested and not participating
3. Moved and left no forwarding address :-)
4. Banned by Mark or GBK
So, what I'm asking is, how long have you been posting or lurking on this BB? For me, about 2 years of posting (I never lurked as it is not like me to stay on the sidelines with something as exciting as woodwinds the main topic).
How long have you been on and Who's our Grand Daddy (I expect someone like Ken Shaw or Don (thanx, Mark) Berger or even GBK).
HRL
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-12-27 21:49
Hank -
I've been on the board since fairly near the beginning, though of course Mark and Kevin Fay were the originators. With the original software on Sneezy, the postings were all on a single page, which became slow to load when it got too big. Mark therefore trimmed the "tail" every month or so, and the older posts were lost. Since he changed software, everything is kept.
The Wayback Machine, http://www.archive.org/web/web.php has some posts from that era, but it's only a snapshot from a particular date, so it's nowhere near complete.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-12-27 22:15
Bill Fogle (Bill now) could be our Grand Daddy. I've read his posts from 1996. So what's the story with BB starting in 1999? Name change?
Vytas
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-12-27 22:17
Ken, Mark, and GBK,
Thanks for the informaation. When I look back at those four original posts that survive, we have come along way.
Ken, you may be Our Granddaddy (Mark does not count :-)
HRL
PS Mark, why do you think that so many people just seem to "disappear?"
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-12-27 22:51
Mark,
I remember this switchover. When the first BB (or all this thing) started?
Vytas
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-12-27 23:56
The BBoard started in 1998 (I think). The Clarinet Pages in '95, the Clarinet FAQ (the predecessor) by Victor Freyer in '94.
Jim Fay was the originator of the Klarinet mailing list - nothing to do with the pages.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-12-28 02:17
Hank, this is partly observation, and partly from actually speaking with some of the pros who have wandered off over time:
Three basic things seem to be going on. (1) Some of the denizens of the board have been disrespectful of good advice given by those qualified to give it, whether under pseudonym or not. Since they are essentially giving freely what they would otherwise charge a great deal for in a studio setting, that is hardly cricket. And yes, I think some of those snipers may have made Mr. Charette's very short list.
(2) Perhaps related to the first, there has been plenty of unqualified advice dispensed that drowns out the valuable good stuff. Those who speak loud enough and often enough tend to win in these public forums. Again, certain folks just won't give any more of their time in that environment.
(3) The triteness (if that isn't a word, let's make it one for today) of some of the posts limits the level of interest on the part of some of the former valuable participants in our discourse. We certainly should not take ourselves too seriously, and the humor makes this board truly enjoyable. What I speak of is the periodic reappearance of "What did you name your clarinet" and threads of similar ilk. Hardly the kind of critical discussion that merits the attention of the pros.
This board is a free market of ideas and discussion, and I credit Mark and Glenn for keeping their editorial scalpels holstered for the most part. I myself enjoy the community environment and trying to help out where I can. I do greatly regret though that we have lost the participation of some very high profile artists both named and unnamed due at least in part to the unprofessionalism of the environment.
I have harbored wishes of seeing the pros come back, and contemplated ways we could make this happen. Perhaps there could be "uberposters" who have the curriculum vitae to answer and discuss on critical topics who would be the go-to and even final word on certain posts. Even more hopeful, but I'm sure well beyond the amount of time our gracious hosts care to spend on this, I would love to see a subset of posts that would be more tightly controlled for content where users could post questions and those "uberposters" would be the only ones cleared to provide answers. Other members can pose followup questions, but overall the content is limited to master class/seminar level discussion and we quietly listen to the experts.
A bulletin board fantasia for a Monday evening.
Cheers.
Mark Sloss
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2004-12-28 03:53
Wow, I can barely remember when I last took out the dog, but I think I came in around 2000. Could have been 1999, but I'm a bit fuzzy on that. One of my eBay customers was Bob Gardner and he kept telling me about this great board that would be something I would enjoy. He told me about it for about a year before I actually checked it out. He was right.
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Author: Bnatural
Date: 2004-12-28 04:01
I've been coming back and forth for a number of years... I can't remember the first time i stumbled upon this board. It was many years of stumbling upon it upon it before i registered and came here regularly.
Glad I finally did
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2004-12-28 04:31
I first started reading in spring of 1998 shortly after I first went online. I linked in from Alta Vista (remember them?!) I began posting shortly after that as "Jim" and added the "E." when other "Jims" appeared.
At that time there were a great many high school and middle school kids posting. They have all (hopefully) graduated and entered either real life or college. Some have even graduated from college and either entered grad school or real life. I speculate that a number of these ex-kids simply did not keep playing the clarinet.
As for the adults who have left... I have no idea.
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Author: Markus Wenninger
Date: 2004-12-28 07:50
Well,
I think it was 2003 when I entered (or was it 2002? certainly not earlier than that, regrettably), and it has been a waggonload of experience for me ever, since then. Hardly a day goes by without me checking the BBoard, it´s my starting page. So that makes me one of the youngsters, I reckon, in respect to time enscribed here. The "daily drag" of those ennerving setup- postings, though, stalled my drive-to-post somewhat, I must say, I´d wish to have more discussions going on about composition, performing, works and composeres for the clarinet, to be honest. But the BBorad´s what it is, and it´s an excellent source for information, I can tell that, and from time to time there´s still the possibility I become ensnarled by posts started by reflected partakers...vinegar included, as You´d have it, Hank.
A healthy, happy and performative 2005 to all of You,
Markus
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-12-28 10:57
Hi Everyone,
Wonderful observations and so many, right on track. The two that seem to be most telling, in my mind, are by Mark Sloss and Jim E, (you may be the Grand-Daddy).
Thanks to all for your most reflective and meaningful posts.
HRL
PS Brenda, the dog is out!
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-12-28 13:27
My first post (as far as I can tell) was October 6th, 2002. I had just returned from military school a few months earlier and signed up for community college. About a month into college I found out they had a chamber ensemble, was invited to play, so broke out the clarinet after a 2.5 year hiatus. I don't remember WHY I found the board, or HOW I found it, but I found it. Posted a problem, got feedback, and stuck around.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-12-28 15:13
Dear Mark Sloss,
Thank you for the wonderful post!
Vytas
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-12-28 15:47
I think that I've probably been on since about 2000. Name hasn't changed that I know of. This is the only board that I check into daily--often while doing other chores on the computer.
I remember the old board where EVERYTHING had to load. This works a lot better and my hat's off to Mark & Glenn.
Allen Cole
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2004-12-29 00:58
I found this board earlier this year when my clarinet playing became more intense and first registered then to inquire of your expertise regarding my instrument. As with others, I value all of your insights and thank Mark and GBK for their work. I gain a great deal and contribute little, I imagine, but I appreciate your tolerance.
As to the frivolity, I think some of us need to be careful not to take ourselves too seriously. Hank and Brenda, better watch it... Limericks, anyone?
Sue
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-12-29 01:09
I registered right before summer of this year, if I remember correctly. To ask about equipment advice for a Bass Clarinet I still haven't bought (it's rough being poor) but should soon. As far as granddaddys go, Mr. Lehrer has certainly kept me on the right track (or pointed me back to it a few times when I took the wrong turn) since I came here, so he would be if anyone, for me.
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Author: vin
Date: 2004-12-29 02:00
I also lament the loss of the aforementioned "uberposters." A similar thing happened on the trumpet forum, when a high school student started ragging profusely on Manny Loreano (spelling?) of the Minnesota Orchestra and he stopped posting. The internet in general, and this site in specific, is wonderful for the exchange of knowledge. While this site IS meant for people of all abilities, much of its attraction is the contribution of the professionals (all those who know) and the lack of respect that often goes with internet anoymity is a detriment for us all.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-12-29 11:45
Vin,
You have really hit the nail on the head.
I have often believed that we all use better manners if we do not hide behind a screen name (but that was a whole other thread that you can read at http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=132175&t=132175 if you are interested).
Sure, at times it gets a little annoying when someone brings up a topic that is really more chatroom material or wants to know "what's the best...." "or how do I prepare for ...." and similar musings but that's just part of the game.
This is the place though where there is a huge amount of experience about a plethora of topics that are related to the clarinet and its care and feeding. We have pros who are performers, techs, teachers, composers, who are all willing to share years of experience FOR FREE! It just seems a pity that so many of the members seem to have short tenure with the BB. As younger players mature and progress, I would hope that they'd stick around and share their experiences over a longer period of time.
But I know, we get busy and ....
HRL
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2004-12-29 16:44
Sorry, but I don't agree. This is a public forum. Unless and until those "professionals" who have an exaggerated sense of their own importance find an exclusive place to exchange ideas, everyone is welcome and you are certainly welcome, I imagine, to exchange them elsewhere. I enjoy chatting with Mary(psychotic lil' clarinet girl) and all the other individuals who have questions about the clarinet, in the hope that my teaching experience can be helpful. Isn't that what teaching is all about? I still have questions myself. You don't want to answer them, you don't have to.
Maybe you could find a place where only those who have certain credentials would be allowed to enter and those of you who are really important could talk amongst yourselves.
Lest you feel I am hiding behind my screen name, I am Susan Tansey, of Falmouth, Massachusetts, USA. I am an elementary music, chorus and band teacher, and clarinetist, both amateur and professionally. I have been teaching clarinet for many years. I have no objection to sharing any knowledge gained from those years. To do so would be pretentious on my part. You want to set up shop in a storefront, you can charge there. You don't want to share on line, then don't.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-12-29 17:10
Hi Susan,
I'm not sure who the "you" is that is the subject of your scorn. Is it me? Someone else? If this is meant as an admonishment of something I have said, it would be better to have this chat privately; my email address is in my profile.
HRL
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-12-29 17:55
Let's not let this get out of hand, please.
People choose to participate or not for various reasons. Many (the majority, I think) people choose to read only and not post or even register.
There are a number of problems with "expert boards" since many people consider themselves experts and someone has to pick & choose between the experts.
Can you imagine the hate & discontent generated if I decided to pick the "experts"? ("I'm sorry, I don't consider you expert enough or unbiased enough to answer questions on my BBoard. Thank you for trying ...") I generate enough heat already without that added burden.
Many of the experts, if we want to call them that, don't especially like to participate in BBoards since they will be questioned. Anonymity does promote questioning of experts - sometimes a very good thing.
If you think there's any consensus of who's an expert at anything then you haven't been reading the BBoard very long! 
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Author: Markus Wenninger
Date: 2004-12-29 19:05
I´d be extremely sceptical about the criteria distinguishing so-called pros & amateurs or whatever one may call the latter; the only authority is the performance of a work of art on our instrument(s), & certainly not how smoothly one fitted into an hierarchical system of repetitive competence in. Insofar to perform is grinding deeper than just execution. I was wondering how come nearly all but a few of the younger players registered here unhestitatingly accept the traditional level music-performance is edited according to, & there´s hardly anybody revolting against those tightly interlocking structures of what is harmony, accurate intonation, what it means to perform well, etc etc, - oh yes, I really do dig sarcastical remarks of some of the elders here, and the humor of very few of the younger, but I miss the ignited furor of let´s say a 20 year-old composer-performer who claims to have it all differently, somebody who stammers "Cage is God" and the like, something in that line. The degree of regulation here on the BBoards is very very moderate, & I´m grateful for this, one has to have a calmness for this job I lack for certain still.
Markus
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-12-29 20:57
I don't think the pros have an inflated sense of self here, and they are under no obligation to share anything with the participants in this forum. They haven't posted here to exchange ideas with each other. They can do that in the back of the orchestra or privately.
Such an attitude is exactly why many have chosen to take their balls and go home. It looks like ingratitude from the perspective of someone who gets as much as $200/hour for their time in the "real world". Would we be so quick to tell a doctor to pound salt in a medical forum, or a lettered physicist in a quantum mechanics forum? If we seek precise guidance on a topic, would we rather get that advice (for free) from Greg Smith, or from a lurker with only a passing familiarity with the clarinet?
Mark, I agree that nobody is beyond questioning. Art doesn't live and grow if it isn't challenged. Still, a little respect or even deference shouldn't be out of the question for those of substantial achievement who put their full credentials out there. For some, the name should suffice (Larry Combs, Greg Smith, John Moses) and for others a link to CV might be appropriate. Either way the content of this board is far richer with their participation than without.
From that great tome Jurrasic Park (paraphrased):
God creates dinosaurs. God destroys dinosaurs. God creates man. Man destroys God. Man creates dinosaurs. Dinosaurs eat man.... Woman inherits the earth.
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2004-12-29 23:41
I have gratitude to anyone who cares to share their ideas and expertise with me, whether they are charging $200 per hour or not. If I care to share with anybody on this forum, I am only expecting a place to post my thoughts. I have gained much from those on this forum, and I hope I have occasionally helped someone. Everyone is deserving of respect and an opportunity to contribute. How you measure the value of that contribution is up to you.
I am occasionally offended by those who stick their CV in my face, because it is a kind of verbal swaggering and I am uncomfortable with that.
Sue
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-12-30 02:55
Since we aren't together at a master class where we can listen to someone lecture, or even better, listen to someone play, how else do you weigh the merits of what that person has to say? Particularly for those novices who come here seeking information, what method are they supposed to use for separating wheat from chaff?
Sure, it is possible to go overboard and be the clarinet equivalent of a "swaggering" alphabet (epithet here) waiving one's CV about, but in moderation (emphasis here) it seems like a reasonable expedient for callibrating what that person's contribution is worth.
As has been pointed out, this is a marketplace of ideas. I'm just offering one up, and thanks to all for responding. My goal is still to bring some valuable high level resources back to the table for all to benefit, so please take my observations in that spirit.
Cheers.
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Author: ken
Date: 2004-12-30 03:52
I stumbled across a post of mine circa 1999; I suppose that only demonstrates my conscripting brand of skull-duggery is more stale then most. Msloss, raises a valid point, if not a key justifying factor for this BBoard's existence. I speak for myself, and answer the question of merit with simply, "changing lives". Does this BBoard challenge and change musical lives and career paths for the good? Does it make a positive and lasting contribution to the family of instruments called "clarinet" and to the performing arts?
I say a resounding and appreciative, "yes"! The advice I have received (and continue to do so) from outstanding players and teachers has immeasurably improved multiple aspects of my playing and overall instrumental evolution. Likewise, I have greatly enjoyed sharing my own limited successes with fellow board members and joyously proud to toot a few trendy riffs and licks of my own. Thanks to one and all who helped me grow as a musician and person these past years. And, a special thanks to the webmaster for keeping the website online and thriving. v/r Ken
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Author: clarinetist04
Date: 2004-12-30 06:31
Old memories...I first stumbled on this board in 1996 or 1997, one of the two, while I was living in Holland. My Dad was stationed there. I was in 6th or 7th grade. I may have posted back then but God only knows what I may have put as a screen name. I left for a few years (maybe 2001-2002?) and then came back to it at the beginning of this year. I have only registered this screen name for a few months. But don't be fooled, I've been around a long while, mostly to check out the classifieds and repertoire sections of the Sneezy.org website, but I also checked in here and the discussions once in a while.
-Robert
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-12-31 14:26
What an interesting subject and read !! An immense source/resource, and what a group of good f[r]iends. My search of my own early days turned up Jan 1999, re: book references. While I may be able to compete via age [now 85 1/2 with 75 yrs. of experience], IMVHO, I'm far behind re: playing ability, knowledge, and other pro attributes. I have had the pleasure[?] of pointing friends toward the US Patent Databases as a generally unappreciated technical/legal resource for woodwind et al information, perhaps a "carry-over" from employment. Comments ? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Brandon
Date: 2004-12-31 15:13
I have been posting since 1997. I believe with the same name! I was a senior in HS at the time, and would look at the board every day as I went in to computer class. I read several posts a day, but rarely respond anymore. Much of the information is in the archives, or someone has already said everything I need to say.
In addition to Mark S.'s comments, I believe that many people will take things out of context when the conversation is only written text. There have been several times where I might word something a certain way and someone might take offense to it. So we might have to IM over it or something. But as far as professionals coming to the board, I cannot remember a single instance where someone has come in and belittled an amateur. Even if something does become questionable, I usually sit back and just realize that if we were talking face to face, then there would not be this barrier put up.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-12-31 18:00
Brandon,
You are wise beyond your years.
HRL
PS And an "old-timer" on this BB.
Post Edited (2004-12-31 18:02)
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Author: Bill
Date: 2005-01-01 01:30
I started in 1995 with the "Klarinet" mailing list. It was essentially Dan Leeson then (who I traded e-mails with just 3 weeks ago!!!!!), stampng out everyone who thought stiff reeds were "dark" and English clarinets were "buttery."
I didn't know about the "bulletin board" until quite recently. I was always "Bill Fogle, Washington, DC." Now I'm a little more anonymous - I got burned a couple of times.
But - this is a fabulous place to be. It's the best.
Bill.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-01-03 17:33
Arnold (the Basset Hornist) is certainly one of the earliest posters. I don't think he checks the list regularly any more, though he drops in from time to time.
David Niethamer and Leila Loban have been mostly on the Klarinet list, but they were here early on, too.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-01-03 17:50
Hi Ken,
I remember Arnold's name but do not recall Niethamer and Loban as recent posters. A pity when good BB members go missing!
HRL
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-01-03 20:45
Hank -
David Neithamer posts mostly on the Klarinet side. He is retired from the principal postion in Richmond, so he's slowed down his activities a bit. He always has something interesting and insightful to say.
Leila Loban also stays on Klarinet. She's an excellent writer, so her stuff is always worth reading.
Ken Shaw
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Author: diz
Date: 2005-01-04 00:26
God LORD
Arnold is one of the old ones who is STILL posting ... does he get a medal?
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2005-01-04 00:26)
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