 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Clarinetist
Date: 2004-12-18 16:12
If you have to play a fast passage in some orchestra piece and you don´t have the skill to play that at the appropriate tempo, just yet, what would you do? Do you know if it´s common for clarinetists to fake in orchestras? I know that string instruments fake quite often when playing in orchestra. String player can do it easier and I have heard that some professional string players have to do it if the passage is too difficult. I play the viola also and I have to admit that I have faked. If there would be also other instruments playing the audience could propably not notice if you fake. So, what do you think?
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Author: John Stackpole
Date: 2004-12-18 16:20
I am shocked - SHOCKED! - to learn of this practice....
(It also gives me hope.....)
JDS
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-12-18 16:24
Judiciously leaving out a note or two to catch a breath, a minor articulation change in a rapid tutti phrase, or using an alternate fingering with poorer quality to facilitate a difficult passage is certainly justified.
But...in most every other case, on a professional level, the simple answer is:
It is not acceptable.
You can be certain that if you can't play a particular passage, there are a dozen other clarinetists who probably can and are waiting for the chance to do so.
What will you do if the conductor asks to hear you play a certain passage in rehearsal all by yourself?
Granted, there are a number of very difficult orchestral tutti passages which include the clarinet (ex: Sorcerer's Apprentice, Daphnis et Chloé #2, etc...).
That's why they invented practice rooms and metronomes...GBK
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Author: chuck
Date: 2004-12-18 16:50
No. The od adage applies: "when in doubt, leave it out". Chuck
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2004-12-18 17:23
I'm super slow, but improving with practice. The wind symphony that I play in has about six weeks between concerts. If by week five I still can't play the faster passages, I go through my music and make notations as to which notes to play and which ones to skip. I sometimes end up playing the first note of a grup of four sixteenths etc. It's encouraging to me that I am having to do this a lot less now than a year ago. So far they haven't kicked me out, although it could happen if enough really good players auditioned. I practice a lot resulting in improvment that is obvious to the director.
In order to compensate for my mediocre to poor playing, I attend all practices (arriving early), am the go to guy for on the spot repairs (carry stick on corks, pads, screwdrivers, etc.), voluteer to make copies for others in my section, give people rides when they need them if it's not a million miles out of my way.
Now that I'm disabled, I've had to give up most of my previous hobbies, and I consider it a privelege to be able to play in this group. I'm chief brownie and gopher, but somebody has to do it, and I have more time on my hands than most.
(ojanpaa)
Post Edited (2004-12-18 17:26)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2004-12-18 18:25
I've surprised myself and fooled conductors while faking during sight reads and in our university's studio orchestra. If I don't know the part by a performance, faking is always a fine line between "nobody notices" and "oh crap, i totally screwed up the part," so I try to do it as seldom as possible.
There are certain skills that can lead to more effective sight reading and, therefore faking, which eventually can lead to your "fake" being the actual correct passage. I've "accidentally" played the correct part on many occasions. The worst thing, in my opinion, that a performer can do in such a situation is to make a special effort to play each and every note correctly, as the first mistake will throw you off completely.
One of my teachers, a saxophonist, once told about a pick-up gig he was playing: The part was fiendishly difficult, and he knew right off that he wouldn't likely make all the notes. However, he played the entire passage, at tempo, making sure to get the right notes on the downbeats and to play each downbeat to the next with proper energy. The rest of the group was completely amazed at how he could sight read such a nasty passage perfectly, though he says he probably missed about half the notes.
Missed notes don't expose a fake nearly as much as frantic playing.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2004-12-18 18:39
Speaking of Sorcerer's Apprentice, my school orchestra is doing that right now. While those runs down and back up around rehearsal #22 are hell ( for the moment the other clarinetist and I are just using the "start on the right note for the first beat in every measure" technique), the flautists are getting a lot of that passage because they're monsters. Like Alex said, frantic playing exposes faking, and eventually conductors will notice if one section is playing something more confidently than another. I plan to work the runs out asap, because as most of you have found out- faking for extended periods of time makes it more difficult to play correctly. Most music only seems harder than you're capable of, otherwise you wouldn't be playing it, so just sit down and work it out really slowly and as you play it more and more your speed will build up. I've found the same is even true about tonguing in some cases even if I haven't had time to build up an overall faster tongue.
Bradley
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2004-12-18 19:55
From a professional point of view:
"Faking in orchestra" or anywhere, except your practice room, does not work. If your playing is faked in any way, it's deemed unprofessional, and unacceptable. Your colleagues will notice it, most conductors will notice, and some of your public will notice it. It's just wrong, at a professional level.
Just this week an actor on Broadway was falsely accused of "lip-synching" on stage. The accusation was later proven untrue, but faking on stage or in the pit, has always been a no-no.
We all practice constantly to improve our playing, and keep up the highest standards. Even a wrong note can be upsetting, but getting it right every time is the norm.
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
Post Edited (2004-12-18 21:47)
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-12-18 21:40
The real subject here appears to be one of fudging rather than faking. When I hear the term "faking" I envision the player fabricating something to fill the required space.
To smear or thin out some sort of established run or pattern is something that I've always heard referred to as fudging.
Sorry to split hairs, but if I am correct about this, it could affect how we perceive what we tell one another.
As for the subject at hand, fudging is something that you do whan you have no other choice. You WILL get caught, particularly in an orchestral setting, and the consequences depend on what the level and mindset of your group is, and on who may be out there coveting your position. You have already heard how welcome it is (NOT!) in a Broadway pit. It might be better than playing frantically, but it's not a good alternative to practicing if you have a chance to do so.
A recent situation of mine might illustrate how important it is to repect ALL situations. I am playing in a church musical, transposing cello and bassoon parts on bass clarinet. One of those parts requires me to play that signature 16-note section from "For Unto Us A Child Is Born" in concert D. This means that I have to play it in my E, across the break, and with all sorts of pinkie issues and wrist-twisting.
This is a volunteer group, everyone know's that I'm transposing, and no one involved can even read it as well as I can. So there's all the possible excuses. BUT, everyone knows what this thing sounds like and any modification will be disappointing to the listener. Youngsters are participating in this group for whom an example must be set--and some could be potential customers for lessons in the future. I am presented with the choice of doing this either very obviously right or very obviously wrong.
So what to do?
Ove the last week, I've logged over an hour practicing this four-bar passage alone--and I do a booster on it every single day. As a result, the notes and the technique have been memorized and I no longer have to cope with transposing by sight at speed. I can also watch the conductor more closely and help her to keep the tempo from being rushed by other nervous players. (which will save my skin when it's my turn to spit out those sixteenths!)
Another benefit of woodshedding is that this piece has given me a great, familiar-sounding technical exercise for my more advanced students.
Even in circumstances where fudging or faking might be understood or accepted, to do so can be a very dismal alternative to giving it your best shot. And working out the part--if you can--may bring considerable rewards.
Allen Cole
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-12-18 21:56
The closest thing I've heard to "faking" as being acceptable is when a clarinetist can't double or triple tongue and so they slur-two tongue-two or slur something that was written to be tongued quickly. That's all I'd expect to be allowed as "faking", especially on a professional level.
If you don't have the time to practice and work it out, as many people said above, hitting the downbeats is a good thing to shoot for.
Another thing that one of the community bands I was in did was to have half the clarinetists play down beats and the other half play the upbeats (but this was not a "run", but rather a lot of octave jumping - the passage in question was in Clarinet Candy, and many of them couldn't quickly jump the break and play everything so they worked it out where some would play just the lower notes and some just the higher)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-12-18 22:13
Hi All,
I had a similar situation as Allen just this past week with a symphonic band arrangement by Morton Gould of the First Noel. I had the pleasure of playing the eefer part in a local community band and there is a small solo part at the pickup to rehearsal E where the Eb part goes fron 5 flats to 6 flats (are you starting to get the picture).
Rather than read this in 6 flats, I wrote the solo out in 6 sharps which seemed to be less threatening. The key was not the problem as much where the notes laid on the instrument, all across the break. There is even a section where one must use a slide from B to C# on the LH to make everything come out right.
The problem though is the instrument. Small holes + big hands + just an OK effer = Possible Disaster. The opening pickups are C# B A# B C# in eighth notes (I had a back up of using just C# B C# in quarter notes). I spent weeks on this and could play it in my sleep. The part is doubled in the 1st Bb part and begins on F#5 and is very easy.
Comes the performance, a nice entrance, good start on the figure, and suddenly as I am going along, the little eefer lost its voice for a couple of notes in the phrase. I got the hard part and during the easy part, one fat finger somewhere lost coverage on the hole. Everyone else thought it was fine but I was mortified.
Lessons Learned:
1: I now know I will never be a great eefer soloist in this life
2: Never trust an eefer
3: The alternate opening would have kept my fingers more in the right place, longer and might have prevented disaster
4: If you are going to play eefer, play it a lot (like months) so your hands become accoustomed to the difference in hole location
HRL
Post Edited (2004-12-19 00:07)
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2004-12-18 22:41
If you ARE going to fake, you should thank those around you who are playing the tutti part to cover you up. Afterall, you are being very selfish in just dumping the passage on them.
__________________
Don't hate me because I play Leblanc! ![[down]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley23.gif) Buffet
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Author: William
Date: 2004-12-18 23:44
Not in any orchestra that I play with--or any ensemble that I ever played with, for that matter (except jazz, that is.....)
Either learn to play it, or get out of your chair and let your replacement play it. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh.........but that's just telling it "the way it is."
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-12-19 06:38
I dunno. GBK and Alexi have brought up some important exceptions to "play it or quit." I don't think that we should discount those.
Allen Cole
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2004-12-19 09:03
We played the Sorcerer's Apprentice this past fall concert. On the same concert we played the Danse Infernal from the Firebird Suite. Not an easy selection for the clarinets. Even though we are a high level performing community orchestra, that just really challenged us. There were some of us that could finally play all of the runs and rhythms but one couldn't. I don't think she should have been asked to leave because of her inability to play those difficult passages. A professional orchestra, maybe, community, no. I just thought that needed to be made clear.
She did try for awhile to play the runs on Sorcerer's but by the 4th out of 6 rehearsals she started laying out and did so for the concert. I think part of being a good musician is to know your limitations too. It would have been a disaster for her to have played.
Hey Allen, I'm so glad to see you use the term, " woodshedding". I use it and people look at me like I just said a foreign word. My HS band director used it and I still do. Maybe if we all did a little more woodshedding then we wouldn't have to worry so much about "faking" or "fudging" it!
Rebecca
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Author: Clarinetist
Date: 2004-12-19 09:14
OK. Just to let you know, I haven´t done any faking or fudging (as Allen puts it) when playing in an orchestra. Perhaps fudging is a better word to describe what I meant. It is, furthermore, much more harder to fudge on clarinet than on a string instrument. On a string instrument you have to just make your bow go into the same direction with the other members of the string group. I have heard that some string players even consider this as art, to fake properly. I believe it is somewhat more acceptable (and exceptable) when a string instrument, playing on a lower level, fudges on some passage rather than a clarinetist.
Thanks for your great responses!
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-12-19 14:06
Quote:
I believe it is somewhat more acceptable (and exceptable) when a string instrument, playing on a lower level, fudges on some passage rather than a clarinetist. Perhaps it's not really that 'acceptable', but rather harder to catch. In every orchestra there are very VERY few clarinets (two, MAYBE more), and dozens of strings. So if one or two are 'fudging' it'd be a little more dificult for the conductor to catch a stringed instrument than a clarinet, IMO.
Also, it really depends on the level of band that you're in too (I don't know if this has been brought up yet or not). For the community band that I started out in and hope to join again when I get the time, we are almost ALL amateurs who have returned to the instrument at some time in our lives and play just for fun. There is no reimbursement whatsoever and it's purely for fun and literally just to offer the community a change of pace as to what to do on a Sunday every few weeks (we don't even charge admission). So in that scenario, I'll understand a few people leaving out a run or two if it's dificult for them.
For a college/university orchestra, I would expect players to try as hard as possible to get any passages down cold. ESPECIALLY since they are aspiring musicians and hoping to do something with music sometime in the future. But again, if the freshman isn't up to speed quite yet on a dificult piece, what can you do? Short of cutting them from the music program (which depends on the school whether they are willing to do that or not).
For a professional of any sort, you really should be spot-on. You're a pro, you're paid to get it right. And as GBK said, for every clarinetist that can't do a certain run, there are probably ten to twelve out there that can, or are at least willing to practice their ___ off in order to be able to.
Alexi
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2004-12-19 17:51
Amen, Allen, as usual. Put in the hours and learn your part.
Someone earlier in this thread talked about a "pick up gig" where they had a difficult part and managed to play all the downbeats, therefore considering the performance a success. I would feel deceitful in that situation, but would sweat bullets because I would know the truth.
Those who are speaking about orchestral playing know that would never fly. If you think you are getting away with it, the only one you are really fooling is yourself.
Sue
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-12-19 20:07
Clarinetist said:
I know that string instruments fake quite often when playing in orchestra.
Rather a sweeping statement? ... back up your statement with proof please.
In the years I played professionally ... if anyone (not just a string player) "faked" they weren't asked back or they were sacked. If you think you can hide just because there's 14 of you, you're sadly mistaken.
I have also worked as a conductor and let me tell you, if clarinetist in a pit orchestra I employ ever faked he/she would only do it once ...
For the record, I also play viola and have done this, too professionally ... I certainly never faked and was as well prepared for each concert as I had time to be ... when I played section principal, faking was absolutely out of the question.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2004-12-20 01:44)
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Author: ned
Date: 2004-12-20 00:28
""No. The od adage applies: "when in doubt, leave it out". ""
So...........what if the whole section "left it out"? I'd like to hear that!
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Author: steve s
Date: 2004-12-20 00:55
this is a very interesting thread because of all the implied sub-threads
At the highest professional level, is anything less than a perfect performance acceptable? In my opinion, no
At the highest professional level, is anything less than a perfect performance always achievable? Absolutely not! I listened to the Cleveland Orchestra live for 20 george szell years, and believe it or not, I heard squeaks and missed notes, from all chairs of the clarinet section... But indeed, not many!
Where does the professional highest level merge into lower levels of professionalism? Hard to say... I listened to the Delaware Symphony Orchestra, this has been described as a community/semi professional Orchestra, but I've heard clarinet playing consistently at the highest level.
Is professionalism and striving for perfection something all players should do? Of course
Should those of us who will never achieve the ability of the top professional player not express ourselves through music? Certainly not.
s
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Author: Lisa
Date: 2004-12-20 01:37
I agree that it depends on the level of the ensemble you're talking about. Pros, college music majors, high school festivals, etc., sure, you better play every note exactly as written, but I do agree that there are some situations (community band being one) where you can safely say "when in doubt, chicken out" or leave it out.
I was put in the unfortunate situation of nearly sightreading a 1st clarinet part during today's concert. I was specially invited to sightread the dress rehearsal, and the policy is that no folders can go home between dress rehearsal and concert. The band arrangement of "Waltz of the Flowers" was on the program, and I knew there was no way I was going to get all those notes (think 1st violin) accidentals, articulation, etc. on that last page. No chance at all.
SOO, I ended up playing what I correctly could, namely every downbeat (on the nasty parts) and of course everything else in between when I could. If there was something I just wasn't sure of with 2 others beside me knowing it well, then I figured I didn't want to mess them up with my own mistakes in the name of going for it all and who cares what really comes out, LOL. So I played it safe, looked for chromatic patterns, played 'em, and left the rest up to the ones who could do it.
In another community band I'm in, the conductor encourages those who can play well to play everything, but some of the weaker players are encouraged (by him, with total understanding) to stick to downbeats of sixteenth note runs, etc. to keep the overall sound clean and sharp. I respect and agree with that, but I do also agree that there are many situations where everything needs to be played as written by every player.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-12-20 05:59
The scenario that Rebecca presents is one that returns us to GBK's more pragmatic stance.
Many transcriptions are very poorly arranged--particularly where clarinets are concerned. Usually, the older they are the worse they are. I'm involved in a very good community group that includes quite a few professionals and we frequently work out schemes to stagger fast tonguing, or drop things an octave when parts are in the stratosphere.
This is generally not needed on newer transcriptions like those by Mark (?) Hindsley, but a lot of the pre-WW2 operatic transcriptions seem pretty unreasonable. I had to just put my head in my hands a few months ago when our director asked us why we "don't just double-tongue" on the William Tell Overture.
But then, I wouldn't personally classify staggering or dovetailing schemes as fudging or faking.
Allen Cole
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Author: JessKateDD
Date: 2004-12-20 06:41
In response to the original question, I would practice the music relentlessly until I could play it. If the difficult passages are exposed, this is especially true - you must find a way to get the notes covered, even if it means horrible sounding fingerings and tossing in a couple of slurs. If the difficult spots are tutti, then you will probably get away with dropping some notes (or laying out a bit), but I would still work them up as a matter of pride, not to mention the remote possibility you may be put on the spot. I once had a conductor single me out at a rehearsal of Schumann's 4th symphony and make me play the final presto by myself. I was working on double tonguing at the time and managed to get through it fairly well; but, had I not practiced that passage pretty hard beforehand, it would have been a disaster.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2004-12-20 07:11
What disturbs me is the sole dependence on note accuracy in such discussions. True, note accuracy is very important and vital to the performance of a piece. Ideally, a musical performance should be both technically accurate and musically inspired. However, I very often hear performances where the notes are very accurate and the music itself is dead. On the contrary, I would much rather hear a performance where the music is truly felt with some fudging here and there.
I personally have no serious aspirations toward performing in a professional orchestra. As a composer, however, if I had to choose between complete technical accuracy played dryly or a bit of fudging with feeling and soul, I'd prefer a performance of the latter any day.
I think this obsession with the technical is at least in some small way responsible for the "declining" state of "classical" music.
Then again, I have a bit of a skewed point of view. When a friend accidentally fudged a bit of the Weber Concertino at a recital and recovered nicely with a bit of ad lib, much of the people-who-know-the-piece audience was aghast; I found it refreshing.
In practicing, many people seem to focus solely on the technical aspects for a good period of time before exploring its personality, which I feel robs the music. Rather, I prefer to find personality at the same time, if not sooner; granted, I won't intentionally leave something fudged: I'm actually pretty particular about note accuracy. However, philosophically, I'd rather throw accuracy out the window when push comes to shove.
Fudging/faking of pure technique is more immediately obvious to the listener than fudging/faking of musical personality and spirit. However, a group that fudges/fakes the latter will always sound dry.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-12-20 11:37
Perhaps I don't understand current "speak" so I don't know what YOU mean by "fake". My interpretation of fake is that you would play something that sounds like what is intended but that is not exact. If you did that just WHO do you think you would be kidding? If you can't play a passage....just don't play it. Practice it until you can. If you're a pro there's no excuse for not being able to play it IMHO.
Bob Draznik
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-12-20 12:00
Quote:
I personally have no serious aspirations toward performing in a professional orchestra. As a composer, however, if I had to choose between complete technical accuracy played dryly or a bit of fudging with feeling and soul, I'd prefer a performance of the latter any day. I remember an article saying that that was one of the refreshing things about going to hear Woody Allen play dixieland. They say he's "intermediate" as far as technique and ability goes, however he does pour his soul into it and you can tell. And it's exciting. So much so that although you notice the mistakes, you don't care because he's playing his heart out.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-12-20 17:26
If you're being paid, it's your responsibility to have all the notes under your fingers. It's part of your job to get the music before the rehearsal and have everything ready to go. The only excuse is in a sightreading session with a new piece, and even there, you need to have everything clean by the next rehearsal (or, preferably, work it out during the first break).
In other situations, everyone will be struggling. Play the first note of every beat, or the first and third, or as much as you can, and get it worked out by next time. Just remember that when you start doing it for a living, there will be lots of players out there who get it right first time, every time, and all of them want your job.
That's why even the truly amazing players (e.g., Stanley Drucker, Larry Combs, Harold Wright) had several years of seasoning in orchestras below the top tier, so they come into a major symphony already knowing everything. Steve Girko, who can play anything at sight, told me that almost all Drucker did in his lessons was work on orchestral excerpts from the score, learning how things fit together, and saying things like "this note is almost always sharp on the bassoon so you need to adjust."
That said, there are always spots to give yourself some leeway. Mark Nuccio says that in the Midsummer Night's Dream G#-G#-G#-B-A figure, he plays the B with the top side key instead of lurching back and forth across the break. Anthony Gigliotti said that when the conductor takes a bat-out-of-hell tempo in the finale of the Beethoven 4th, he tucks a couple of slurs inconspicuously into the little tongued solo. (It's those @#*!$% double-tonguing bassoonists who speed it up.)
As a practical matter, if everyone else is struggling, it's OK for you to struggle, too. Just have it nailed by the next rehearsal.
Ken Shaw
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