 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: quilter_gal
Date: 2004-12-03 19:32
Hi all! I'm a newbie here, but am hoping y'all will be kind and help me out.
My 5th grade daughter has been playing clarinet for about 1 1/2 years and loves it. So the time has come to stop renting and buy. I've been reading other posts, comparing prices, getting confused.
Here's what I know:
1) If we complete the rental contract and own her current instrument, we will have paid $750 for a used Armstrong 4100. Bad idea. We have $464 remaining to pay, and my sense we could take that $464 and get a much better quality instrument and mouthpiece.
2) The school band director is hesitant to offer too much advice since her specialty is percussion. What I've gotten from her are Yamaha, Selmer and Buffet, in no particular order, and with no specific models attached. So that narrowed it down to only several hundred to consider.
3) Due to an anxiety disorder, asking my daughter to play several instruments and give an opinion on which she likes the feel/sound of better is NOT an option. I can only take "I don't know" for so long.
4) At age 11, we are looking for plastic. She is far from a virtuoso - she's a normal 5th grade clarinet player. Plus, if she sticks with it, she'll need a good plastic clarinet for marching band or outdoor concerts (see - I have been reading).
Here's what I THINK:
We have two options, either a good quality plastic instrument (I'm thinking Forte'?) OR a lesser quality instrument with an upgraded mouthpiece. It is that second option that seems so vague and openended.
How do you compare a VITO 7212, 7213, 7214, 7242 or V40 to a Selmer USA CL301 or a Buffet B10/B12 or any Yamaha?
Which mouthpiece is better for an 11yr old girl with braces - Selmer HS, Lyre M13, LeBlanc K10, Fobes Debut or Vandorn B45? Will any of them work with any make/model clarinet? Is the mouthpiece a matter of personal preference or are there actually quality differences?
I can't find any resources that actually do a comparison of similarly priced models. Maybe I'm expecting too much, but a Consumer Reports-type review with red dots for different characteristics would be helpful.
And is the case a big issue? It was for my son's violin - my sense is violin's are more sensitive/fragile than clarinets - I could be way off base here.
So.......what input/advice/guidance can give to a non-musical mom who wants to make the right choice?
Janet
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-12-03 20:00
The Forté clarinet is a very complete package (a quality clarinet, with an excellent mouthpiece, ligature and a very functional, secure case)
It has been praised by many "regulars" on this board, and can be purchased for about $400.
You may also wish to read the reviews by educators and professionals on the Forté web site:
http://www.forteclarinet.com/
It is especially good for marching band (when that time finally arises), so your daughter's eventual better (wooden) clarinet will not have to go outdoors.
There are a number of other excellent choices in student clarinets. Each of the "Big 4" companies has an entry level student clarinet which is quite satisfactory. But, the Forté has been designed to eliminate many of the problems (both repair and tuning) which plague many student line clarinets.
2 of my students are currently using Forté clarinets with excellent results.
The students and parents have been quite pleased with their choice...GBK
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2004-12-03 22:06
Bear in mind that, so long as the Forte is less well-known, it might be harder to sell if you ever want to.
Among the big-4 student instruments, there doesn't seem to be a great deal to choose between them, dollar for dollar. But do have her play the instrument to check she's comfortable with it - especially if she has small hands and/or thin fingertips. This isn't a matter of deciding which one she likes best, if she's likely to find that difficult. It's making sure you don't buy one she really struggles with.
In theory any (standard) mouthpiece is supposed to work with any (standard) clarinet. In practice there are tuning issues. I had to change mouthpiece when I changed instruments for exactly this reason. She needs to play a scale into a tuner and make sure that she isn't struggling to get it into pitch on any note.
Consensus seems to be that the B45 is unsuitable for beginners.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2004-12-03 22:25
The case is not a big consideration on the "better" plastic clarinets. They should all do an adequate job of protecting the instrument.
Mouthpieces are personal preference thing once the player gains some experience, but there are definite quality differences that will matter even to an inexprienced player.
The Forte comes with a mouthpiece that is generally recognized as better than most "stock" mouthpieces. If you are looking to buy new equipment, that is a definite advantage.
If you are buying used then there are many choices available, but you must either be able to recognize clarinets with good pads, corks, etc. or be sure the price is low enough so that you can get an overhaul and still be ahead of the game.
I've never played one, but have heard good things about the Vito V40.
All the Selmers, Bundys, Buffets, Yamahas, and Vitos will work if in good condition, and played with a good mouthpiece.
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Author: quilter_gal
Date: 2004-12-04 00:39
OK. I've tried the websites for the manufacturers, but can't seem to figure out the difference between (for instance) the Vito 7212, 7213, 7214, 7242 and V40, other than price, of course.
Likewise what is the difference between the Buffet B10 and B12?
I've checked into the Yamahas and they are out of our price range.
The Forte' still intrigues me, but can it accomodate other mouthpieces if needed?
Slowly, slowly I'm working my way through the info.
Thanks for you help.
Janet
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-12-04 02:52
The forte clarinet (as any clarinet for the price you are looking for) will be able to accept any of the commercial mouthpieces you've listed and will hear about. It's a universal fitting between them all.
I can't tell you the INTRICATE differences between the B10/12, Vitos, etc. but maybe finding a catalogue will help you out. You can search online on their websites or go to a music store and ask for them.
I'd also like to say BRAVO to your daughter's music teacher. She didn't overstep her knowledge and was brave enough to admit that she wouldn't be able to help you out that much, rather than try and give you false advice.
Also, good job in looking for information and doing your homework.
As per your original post, point #3, maybe a good option would be to have her LISTEN to other instruments and decide which one she likes the sound of the best.
Good luck with everything. And if you stick with a good quality beginner's instrument, the resale value should stay relatively high as GBK stated.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-12-04 04:15
David peacham wrote:
> Bear in mind that, so long as the Forte is less well-known,
> it might be harder to sell if you ever want to.
The first 2 production runs of Forté clarinets sold out very quickly. They are becoming difficult to find because initial demand was far greater than production.
I have yet to see a used Forté clarinet for sale - either privately or on-line...GBK
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-12-04 16:38
The basic model 20 (current model # may be slightly different) plastic yamaha is hard to beat. You should be able to pick one up used for around $200 that is in good playing condition. Based on respected opinions expressed on this board the Forte' is a contender.
Bob Draznik
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Author: quilter_gal
Date: 2004-12-04 16:46
Am I being too analytical about this? I'm a financial analyst/MBA-type by training. I like to get to the end of a task and have a relatively clear decision supported by facts.
I'm leaning toward the Forte', because it already has a good mouthpiece and ligature with it. But because it is not available in the stores, I really can't have it to compare to anything else, can I?
Maybe I should just bite the bullet and buy the Forte'. Courage, that's what I need.
Janet
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-12-04 16:52
Without having play-tested either one, I agree with the rec. of the Forte, as improved over the big 4's student models, also the Ridenour student plastic. I also suggest giving consideration to buying a model or two above the least expensive S Cl, believe it will be good investment. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-12-04 16:53
On Buffet B10 vs. B12. I would definitely go with the B12. The B10 was apparently an attempt to compete with cheaper instruments, and some of its mechanics can be high-maintenance.
The B-12 is a solid horn as are the Selmers (301 and 1401, I think)
My biggest concern with a small girl are small fingers covering the tone holes. The Yamaha YCL-23 and most of the Vitos are going to be easier to cover than the Buffet or the Selmer as far as I can tell. Selmer has the largest tone holes of all, and I normally steer small young girls away from them if I can.
With Vito, I think that the 7212, 7213, and 7214 are mechanically the same. The 7414, if I recall, has a dull finish designed to look more like wood. Not sure about the 7213--are these the colored ones? I believe that the 7212 is the basic model that most will want. You might get more info from the Woodwind/Brasswind website, at www.wwbw.com. There is also a version of the 7214 (7214P) that has plateau (covered) keys instead of the normal rings.
The 7242 is a smaller-bore instrument which characteristics more like those that are popular with professionals today. I've never tried one. Not sure about the V40. Didn't see it on their website.
You might also try Googling the model numbers.
Now what I REALLY think:
Forte is worth taking a chance on if you can get one. Good reviews and good price. If I didn't have a Greenline, I'd probably try one. Resale is less of a concern with a plastic horn, because most players keep theirs.
I like the Buffet B12 and the Vito 7212, but with a small girl I'd put the 7212 on top, or consider a Yamaha YCL-23. We want those little fingers to be able to seal the tone holes, and those are reputable models that will give her the best chance.
Look at your rental-purchase contract. You may have the option to trade models at purchase, and there may insurance features that minimize repair costs etc. Rentals are more expensive, but they are not a ripoff. If this instrument works for your daughter, or if you can substitute something else you want, why not just do business with your local store? They have made this possible for you to do risk-free, and to pay by installments. They will provide you with convenient repairs, lessons, and supplies for years to come--if they can make enough money to stay open. Consider the wider picture before acting on a narrow issue.
Allen Cole
Post Edited (2004-12-04 17:49)
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2004-12-04 16:57
As a player of 45 years I can tell you with experience--get the Forte clarinet from the Doc (a sponsor). It's a GREAT buy and I personally play one for outdoor concerts. It's $424.00 plus shipping and you get a very, very nice mouthpiece, cap and ligature along with a Moennig taper barrel. These are things you would have to purchase in addition to the instrument with anything else.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-12-04 16:59
I will also join in here to support the Forté clarinet, but in the business rather than the musical side of things, which can keep the frustration level down when dealing with vendors on-line.
I've know the owners for quite some time now (they've both been advertising on this site for a number of years) and I've yet to receive any complaints about their business practices. The Forté if bought directly from the company Website has a 21-day return policy, so I'd keep that in mind. If it doesn't work out, send it back.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-12-04 17:46
Whichever you get, if you're unsure if it was a good buy, maybe you can find a fairly good clarinet player in the area to "test it out" for you after you get it (provided there's some sort of return policy). That way you'll have someone that knows what they're doing/talking about helping you decide if it was a good purchase. Perhaps the band teacher can recommend someone.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2004-12-04 18:39
When I bought my Forte from The Doctor, I asked him to personally play-test one for me before shipping. Total satisfaction.
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Author: quilter_gal
Date: 2004-12-04 21:31
You guys have been so incredibly helpful!
I've ordered the Forte'. And the "Doctor" will test it out prior to shipment (thanks, clarinetgrammy!).
If the Forte' doesn't work for her for some reason, our next option would be the Vito, since my 11yr old daughter weighs in at a whopping 62 pounds and has skinny (and not terribly strong) fingers, so covering the holes could, indeed, be an issue. I'll stick to new for now, for my own piece of mind.
My daughter is very excited that she is getting a clarinet that she (we!) will actually OWN! She can hardly wait.
Thank you all again. I've printed out all of your advice to share with other parents at school who are in a similar situation.
Janet
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2004-12-04 22:36
Go for the Forte
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-12-04 23:16
Congratulations on the purchase! As they've said above, Doc is a great guy to deal with and doesn't provide any products which aren't of good quality. Hope your daughter enjoys it and it serves her well for years to come.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2004-12-05 01:57
The Forte is a WAY much better instrument than the Vito. Even professionals are enjoying playing the Forte and I can't keep mine to myself for my fellow players trying to take it away from me. It has a fantastic tone and is quite easy to play and is wonderful on the intonation.
Don't worry about resale value. As GBK pointed out, it's sold out and the third run is going to be as well before long. Get on the waiting list if The Doctor runs out. It's going to be a great seller and will come on strong as people catch on to it because it is truly a revolutionary clarinet.
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2004-12-06 00:51
I'm so glad you've chosen the Forte' for your daughter. I've been off the BBoard for a few days but had I seen this thread at the beginning I would have sung it's praises along with everyone else.
I've been giving the Forte' a "trial run" for the past few weeks and am in the process of trying to get our entire school district to switch over to using it for our beginning 5th grade students. You mentioned that your daughter is small and this clarinet is just perfect for smaller hands. The Doctor did such a wonderful job at designing this instrument for our younger players. It is easily playable by adults as well.
I can't say enough wonderful things about the Forte' and you all have already said them here so I'll just chime in on the praises too. I'm so very glad that there have finally been some significant changes to the student line clarinet and hopefully everyone that starts new students on clarinets will know the name Forte' very soon.
Rebecca
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