 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2004-10-26 05:45
I do believe if I sat by someone who played the clarinet tremendously well all the time it would also improve my playing... It seems like I'm starting to sound like the people I sit next to everyday in band class... This is not so much of a good thing, because 1. They're not playing properly and 2. I need to develop my own style within the boundaries of having a focused tone and everything... But listening to other clarinetists play could very well possibly affect the way we play... At least in my case anyways... So what are y'alls thoughts on this?
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-10-26 06:08
I strongly agree. Sitting in a bad section can make you wonder about your tone, tuning and rhythm.
It's not unlike that paranoid feeling that I get driving my truck next to someone who has noisy brakes, bearings, muffler, etc. I hear the noise and go into panic about my own vehicle. Only when the other vehicle turns away do I realize that the problem was not mine.
In a clarinet section, let's say that there are four or five people to a part. If three or four are bad, they will make the one good one miserable and overwhelm them. If you can get two really strong players on a part, they should sit together and be allowed to 'lock in' with each other. They will then do much to positively influence the others.
I've enjoyed this experience in several community groups and their current third clarinets don't have to suffer like I did. Even two strong players can become a whole that is much greater than the sum of its parts.
Allen Cole
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Author: OpusII
Date: 2004-10-26 06:23
Have to agree with Allen...While having played in much community bands, i noticed it to...
One good player in one bad section can have a miserable time while playing. Tone, tuning and rhythm can al be a pain in the ass..
What we did in out own community band is good player, not so good player (this doesn't mean they can't play, but usually tuning problems or tone problems), good player etc.... This seems to work, the very good players can still here each other and they will improve the not so good player.....
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Author: msloss
Date: 2004-10-26 13:11
Without question. One of the surest paths to improvement is to sit next to players who are better than you. That is one of the critical differences between the great music schools and the also-rans. The caliber of player with whom you work and compete drives you to get better.
I have observed the opposite effect with my students as well. Playing in a section of incompetent players, or playing in an ensemble that pays no attention to pitch, phrase, dynamics, musicality, etc., sets up a situation where the student gets sloppy. Hard to blame the student since the effort would be wasted, but sloppy or lazy habits reinforce themselves just as surely as a disciplined practice regimen. I have recommended from time to time that serious students drop out of a bad group or switch instruments if they are serious about achievement on the clarinet.
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2004-10-26 15:26
Definitely so!
I'm a poor to mediocre player, playing third part in a community band.
In our band the first chair on each part is a good player.
Last year we had an excellent first chair player (had previously played first chair, first part), and I was second chair, so I could listen and learn from her. She helped me immensely.
Our excellent player moved to Austin over the summer. This year our first chair is good, but not excellent, and I'm seated third chair, so I can't hear the first chair as well.
I'm having to work a lot harder to learn the parts accurately. Maybe that's a good thing, but it doesn't feel that way to me.
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Author: glin
Date: 2004-10-26 15:34
Yes. I agree with all the above. Playing with good people will give you more security, more fun, and more of an understanding of musicality. (ie listening to their sound and shaping/direction of the music). Playing with people with less music fundamentals makes your job so much more harder at making music without being disturbed and distracted by bad pitch, tone, rhythm, etc from these folks. Not an easy situation to be in, obviously.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-10-26 16:42
Most assuredly. You always hear the person(s) sitting closest to you. What you hear is what you become.
Bob Draznik
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2004-10-26 17:36
It'a like all of you have been sitting in our community orchestra and listening!
We are blessed to have a very good clarinet section and there are 5 of us but we were just discussing this very topic between two of us that sit in the middle. We don't usually share a stand but are going to start doing so on our next concert and set of rehearsals so that we may become a stronger second clarinet section. We are hoping to "lock in" with each other and become stronger than our sum of parts. It seems everyone can hear the first part quite well as our principal player is a very strong player. He once told me that an orchestral piano is really like a forte. I know the first two clarinets can't hear the seconds so I don't think many other people can either. We are really strong players ....we just can't play as loud as our principal so we thought it may help to share a stand, turn in to each other and really get the part to come out.
Some of the comments here on this BBoard are very true, sadly, about the way other players around you affect your playing. It is so hard when the person next to you is so incredibly out of tune, and won't fix it, and when they just continually play the wrong rhythms and key signature. You have to be so careful in community groups because all talent is welcome (usually) but one must not offend the players around them. There is a fine line in making your section, and therefore your orchestra, better by helping educate the players who need help and just offending them. We clarinet players can be very defensive about how we play but need to listen more to those around us. Some changes this year in our section are making things better. I would be very surprised to see many clarinet players willing to give up their "spot" that they auditioned for to sit the way Opus II suggests. Even though it may be the best for the section, most clarinet players I know are very competitive and will not move down in a section and play another part just to help another player. In our school district we mix some staff and older players in with the younger ones on some concerts and rehearsals so they can learn from them but this is a school setting. I don't see this happening in a community clarinet section. The horn section did it and they have improved. Just some thoughts on our particular set of problems. We don't know how to help those that are struggling when they don't believe they need help. I'm not sure there is anything we can do.
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Author: ken
Date: 2004-10-27 01:48
Section speaking, for the same reason more numbers of the bad drown out fewer good, sheer numbers of good cover up the bad. Likewise, less skilled and experienced ensembles can dull the advanced player but raise the level of performance within a fine group. There's still another scenario...
One of the signs of a professional is to play up to a down occasion. Case in point: I once sat in with a community band made up of mostly beginners and "recreational enthusiasts". They were dreadful in all aspects but I nevertheless found them musically admirable. They were so bad they didn't even know they were so bad, but they played with zeal as if it were Carnegie Hall on Saturday night. Their published band arrangements were mind-numbingly simple and poorly voiced, however, they dug into their parts and clung to the edge of their chairs with vigor. It was indeed gratifying and a valuable lesson, these folks raised my level of performance because they were sold out to the music. Their sheer excitement and dedication in what they were doing sold me as well. It works both ways, an unskilled beginner with a positive attitude can inspire even an advanced professional to newer and greater heights. v/r Ken
Post Edited (2004-10-27 02:43)
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Author: Rachel
Date: 2004-10-27 02:02
It makes a huge difference. I'm in a local orchestra, and the 2nd player is not very good, which tends to make me lazy with my own playing. Recently a very good clarinetist joined the orchestra (he decided to play second for reasons of balance and because he said that the second player needs more help on her part than I do on mine), and the difference in how I play with him next to me is unbelievable.
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Author: Meri
Date: 2004-10-27 21:51
I agree wholeheartedly. I find myself reminding several of my younger students to be careful that their tone quality or technique does not fall to the level of the other players.
Meri
"There is a difference between being flat and sounding in tune, and being in tune but sounding flat. The first I can live with; the second I cannot."
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-10-27 22:47
Oh those unique occasions when you and your stand partner are playing those few measures and you get those vibes......the standing waves or something.....and you sound fantastic
Bob Draznik
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2004-10-28 03:13
The type of ensemble seems to get me as well. I find that I'm more precise in chamber settings.
If the people you sit by DON'T affect the way you play, you obviously aren't listening.
Also, some food for thought: We seem to agree that the people you sit by affect the way you play, so it is no small stretch to suggest that you affect the way they play. If they seem to be pulling you down, it could be that you are failing to pull up the standard. I'm not by any means saying to overplay, but the more you can do to support the other players, the easier it will be for you to play well yourself.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2004-10-28 03:28
Well as my clarinet teacher and I were talking about this the other day, I realized the only way to NOT let it affect my playing is to NOT let it affect my playing... It's all a matter of the mind... We all control ourselves... and there was something about this in European history... There was this group of people called the philosopes and they believed that humans were basically good, but they were corrupted by society... First of all, no human is "good" in the first place... and second of all they wouldn't be corrupted if they weren't already corrupt to some degree...My point is, we choose to let our surroundings influence us, when we could indeed choose something better... haha... I'm weird, I'm the one asking the question and then answering it... But I didn't really know the answer till the other day... oh wells...
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