 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Fred
Date: 2004-10-24 20:50
As I've stated before, I enjoy trying different clarinets just for the pleasure and experience of it. I recently rescued a Selmer Series 10 from a pawn shop with my eyes wide open about its flaws. It has a 10 body (both joints match), with a 10S bell, and an unmarked wooden barrel - probably from a Selmer USA product. I don't have all that much tied up in it, and even tried to buy a Series 10 barrel a couple of days ago on ebay but got outbid. You know, it was probably a good thing I got outbid. Why? Because this clarinet plays absolutely GREAT the way it is. Intonation is great, keywork superb (or maybe it just came adjusted the way I like it), and the tone is super. I had no idea a Series 10 was this good an instrument. As I get older, I find that more and more of my opinions and prejudices of yesteryear wind up on the rubbish heap. They make a tidy fire, and I find there's an almost endless supply of cheap fuel.
Now I know that to a purist this clarinet will never be worth much. But right now I've got less than $400 (after replacing a key and all the non-cork pads) in a clarinet that is perhaps my 2nd best performer (behind my '66 R13). I'll probably keep this one forever, because not many people would be willing to give me what the instrument is truly worth in playability. (I wouldn't pay that much for it either, so I'm not casting stones at anyone.)
Now I know I'm in a different position from a lot of you guys. I don't have to worry about my playing jobs or someone in the section hijacking my spot. Today I doubled on soprano sax for the first time and will probably add alto sax (doubling) next week. It went well today; I was . . . adequate. But I'll get better. I wonder what other castoff instruments I can work into my playing arena?
Post Edited (2004-10-24 20:51)
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Author: hans
Date: 2004-10-24 21:03
I believe that Mark C. plays a Series 10 so that you are in good company.
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2004-10-24 21:58
I got a nice surprice from a Series 10 A clarinet a year ago. I play in a newly formed community orchestra and play a Buffet R-13 for my Bb but needed an A clarinet desperately. My husband bid on a Series 10 A on e-bay for me and won. I wasn't sure of the quality of the Series 10's as I have played my Buffet since high school. A lot of the other kids in high school (1974) played the Selmers because they were more affordable and I, like Fred, was letting my past prejudices of the instrument get in my way. I had to have the clarinet repadded but other than that it is a wonderful instrument and I am very happy to have it. It does play different than my Buffet but I am learning to adapt. I'm just so happy I don't have to transpose on the fly and as we just did a performance last night of The Dance Infernal from the Firebird Suite....I'm even more grateful!! I've noticed on this Series 10 that the wood grain seems to be much shinier than my Buffet. Does anyone know why that is. I thought maybe it was something with Selmers ( they all seem shiny to me) or maybe it has to do with the amount of oil in the wood itself. I don't oil my Buffet very often and I know there are many opinions about that issue but I don't know if on this Selmer I should keep oiling it if in fact the shine means it has been regularly oiled in the past. Selmer owners what do you do or does the brand even matter? Rebecca
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Author: ariel3
Date: 2004-10-24 22:37
Rebecca, are you referring to the clarinet bore or the exterior of the horn when you talk about it being "shiny" ? As the owner of a Buffet 30 years ago and presently the owner of two Selmer 10 instruments, I must say that I have treated all instruments exactly the same. I'm wondering where you got the idea that us Selmer players do things differently.
Yes, I do very, very lightly oil the bore when I think it is necessary - perhaps once a year. However, the bore has always been shiny. The outside of the instruments are also very "pleasing" to the eye. However, the oil from my hands is all that is needed here.
Gene
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Author: rc_clarinetlady
Date: 2004-10-25 00:09
Gene,
I think you missed my point about Selmers or maybe I just didn't make it very well. I USED to feel that there was a difference in the quality of clarinets just because of the name on the outside of it. I've long since abandonded that line of thinking. I think it's the player that makes the difference but what I was referring to about the shine on the Selmers was the OUTSIDE. The bores on both my Buffet and my Selmer are about the same but the outside of the Selmer is very shiny. I remember the Selmers in high school the other kids played were very shiny and I know some of them oiled their horns every month. Could that contribute to their shine on the outside? My private teacher was of the opinion that you didn't need to oil the bore any more than once a year if it was played regularly. That's what I've done for the past 30 years. My question is----Since I bought this clarinet used, I don't have any manufacturer's recommendations so I thought maybe some other Selmer owners could tell me if it is recommended by them that the bore be oiled more often than yearly. If it's not a brand specific need then is it okay for me not to oil it but once a year if I play it daily? Please don't misinterpret my question about Selmers. I am a Selmer owner now and I love my A clarinet!! It's just new for me (even though I think it's about 30 years old) and I don't want to mis-treat it. It may have nothing to do with the brand but maybe any clarinet that was regualrly oiled for 30 years needs to continue to be oiled. I just don't know. Thanks, Rebecca
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-10-25 11:44
Hi Rebecca,
I have an R13 but own more Leblancs and Selmers (and play a Leblanc L200 as my main isntrument). It gives me great pleasure to find that there are others that play and enjoy Selmer instruments.
IMHO, the bulk of BB members (I'd guess well over 95%) would sound about the same on a good clarinet by Selmer, Leblanc, Yamaha, or Buffet. The endless debate about why XXX is superior to a XXX seems to really be splitting hairs more than needed. Granted, the key action and ergonomics might be different but ... BTW, older Leblancs feel really good to my hands.
Hang in there with the nice comments about older Selmer clarinets (I have a Series 9 and a Series 9*).
HRL
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Author: ariel3
Date: 2004-10-25 17:46
Please accept my apology, Rebecca. I guess I am on the defensive with all of the comments from some of the clarinet community about Selmers. I think that if you proceed by the very light oil treatment on a yearly basis to the bore, you should get along fine. I am just happy that you have a good A clarinet. To me, my A horn is a little angel - I love her. Gene
Post Edited (2004-10-25 17:49)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-10-26 01:02
Fred,
I would check if the barrel's bore matches the bore of the Upper-Joint. You don't have to measure just put the barrel on the UJ and look into the bore from one end and then from the other. If the barrel has bigger/smaller bore I'd suggest to get matching barrel and I wouldn't worry about the bell.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Fred
Date: 2004-10-26 01:35
Vytas, that was an interesting suggestion - amazingly simple and effective. The barrel does appear to be a bit smaller bore than the upper joint - not much, but enough to feel with my little finger and with a bent tie-wrap.
So now my options appear to be:
1. Do nothing. I like the way it plays.
2. Try to purchase a Series 10 barrel. It might play even better. Then again . . .
3. Carry the upper joint everywhere I go hoping to find a barrel that matches up.
4. Bore out the mismatched barrel. I don't know who I'd get to do that.
FWIW, the barrel I'm using is a 67mm barrel.
What would you suggest?
Post Edited (2004-10-26 01:53)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-10-26 03:30
*****What would you suggest?*****
I would suggest options 1. and 2.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Kathrynsmom
Date: 2005-01-09 23:42
This is very interesting. My local music store has an old series 10. He's got it priced at $3400 and is calling it "a Maserati".
Daughter sounds great on it. Lots of other people do too. : )
Many musicians have tried this instrument and played it, considering a purchase. It's been on the shelf for quite a while though, and I suspect it will remain there until the price drops.
However, the store owner would not lower the price to a reasonable level. He did say he'd take $2200, cash, that very day, before Christmas. The sales person who was helping us was very nice and it's sad that we could not buy from him. He's the one who explained to the owner how serious we were and how much we would like to buy the horn. Of course, we left empty-handed. The price was unreasonable.
We've already discussed this on the board, and the consensus seems to be that other, similar instruments have been selling for under one thousand dollars.
So, consider how fortunate you are to have so little money in a great instrument! I'm envious, and I'm convinced that somebody would buy it if you wanted to sell. ; )
I'm glad you enjoy your clarinet. Maybe we'll make a "find" someday.
Sandy
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-01-09 23:52
---------------------------
This is very interesting. My local music store has an old series 10. He's got it priced at $3400 and is calling it "a Maserati".
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Your local music store is either waiting to take somebody for a big ride in it, or they misplaced the decimal point..........
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Author: Fred
Date: 2005-01-10 01:46
Kathrynsmom, if you wish, you can contact me off the bb. A click on my name will bring up my email address.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2005-01-10 02:03
I would love to discuss the importance of matching a barrel's bore to that of the UJ of a clarinet. I have a 1936 Buffet with a very troublesome, twice-cracked barrel. My teacher blithely suggested I use a modern Moennig barrel with my pre-WWII Buffet. I scoffed.
I have always felt strongly that the bore of a barrel *must* match that of the clarinet (I play wide-bore, vintage instruments). I have done the "bright light" test many times, checking to see whether the pieces of the clarinet were truly matched (I do this with mouthpieces as well, and I play mainly vintage mouthpieces). If there was a "step" between the barrel and the UJ, I considered the pieces to be mismatched and did not use them together.
Anyway, I took my teacher's suggestion and tried my very brand-new Peter Spriggs Moennig-taper barrel with my very old, somewhat wide-bore 1936 Buffet. I could detect no inferiority of intonation or response. I won't say it improved the playing, but the barrel has good intonation with the clarinet and seems to work just fine.
No one is more surprised than me.
Bill.
Bill Fogle
Ellsworth, Maine
(formerly Washington, DC)
Post Edited (2005-01-10 02:55)
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-01-10 05:01
"Anyway, I took my teacher's suggestion and tried my very brand-new Peter Spriggs Moennig-taper barrel with my very old, somewhat wide-bore 1936 Buffet. I could detect no inferiority of intonation or response. I won't say it improved the playing, but the barrel has good intonation with the clarinet and seems to work just fine.
No one is more surprised than me.
Bill."
It's a long standing problem, Bill, but it has very little to do with you. Most of us don't really "try" a wide variety of instruments and equipment combinations, mostly because of the costs involved.
Consider the following:
• Clarinets, while not oboes, bassoons, saxophones or Stradivarii, still are not "cheap" in the global sense of the word.
• "Different clarinets" (i.e., clarinets that don't fit the "norm") are, in addition to being "not cheap", even thinner on the ground.
• Most people interested in music to the extent of the purchase of a professional instrument are not exactly flush with money
• Many (but not all) stores are reluctant to offer up a "variety" of clarinets from which to choose. Here, I'm not talking about "send me three R13s to pick from" but rather "I'd like to have a selection of twenty Selmers, twenty LeBlancs, thirty Buffets and a couple of Rossi horns just for variety".
As a result of these factors, we have to "rely" on alternative means to make a selection. For some, it might be having a teacher (with trusted links in the music community) to pick out that correct horn. For others (i.e., moi) it may have meant a trip to the factory to have a field of bass clarinets from which to select. The solutions vary, but they are all based upon economic reality, and they in turn determine what we can do about picking a horn.
(And, it could be worse. Pity the poor bassoonist. Or even worse. A friend of our family has a daughter who is a whiz on the harp. He went into shock when the college years arrived and iit came time for professional harp shopping…they spent almost a bass clarinet's worth of money on airline tickets just to go and "try out the horns" in that case.)
As a real world example, I would venture to say that no more than ten out of a hundred clarinet players have ever used a horn with the left hand Eb/Ab lever. They still aren't that thick on the ground, they still cost a bit more, and they're a relatively recent (in terms of ready availability) option for purchase. As a result, I tend to view with skepticism any comments that state that such "innovations" (odd term, for something that's been around for a hundred years) are of no use. Sometimes, statements like that are based upon objective hard evidence (years of use, for example), but usually they are just the oft repeated opinions of those who should know better before they pronounce.
Things do change, of course. Thirty years ago, all of the non-Leblanc pro bass clarinets that I was able to test were equipped with that key. (Leblanc, in their odd little way, stuck with the "fork Eb/Ab" for many years; I've yet to meet someone that was enthusiastic about it, but I'm sure they're out there somewhere.) Now, all of the pro horns (including Leblanc, if I read the pictures correctly) have this key. Forty years ago (Jeez, can it be that long?) the only way to get the lever on a soprano clarinet was to order it through the importer and wait for shipment from La Belle France; now it's something that the local music store can get for you in a day or two.
We all need to get out a bit more in the world of music. There are "good things" about the Albert system that most here will never experience. Partially, it's because the horns aren't being made at a quality level any longer, but mostly it's because of the opinion that "Albert horns are junk" that is based on seven generations of second hand information. News flash: Lazarus played Alberts to the day of his death. Whatever else might be said about them, the fact that the old Englishman (who seemed to have some idea about what was good in clarinet playing) tried Boehm and firmly decided to remain with Albert has to say something.
There's a saxophone analogy that is quite apt here. As you know, saxophones are a bit more "durable" than clarinets, not being subject to cracking over the long haul. In fact, the most aged sax can almost be resurrected with a quality workover and tune up…some time and money but not beyond the reach of the typical player.
I played Selmer horns for many years. However, all of my Selmer horns, from the primo "Mark VI" era, were sold to buy a new car (cash) for my first wife. I no longer have the horns (sob), the car (which was a piece of junk called a Ford Granada) or the wife (the less said there the better).
When I reentered the sax fold, I made my entry via Yamaha, an affordable baritone when compared to the then-top Selmer equivalent. Yamaha makes a good horn, one that I was quite happy with. However, when it came time to purchase a new alto, I decided to check out the field before blindly following a brand name. (I also don't like the Yamaha keywork as much as the Selmer version of same.)
I tried Yanis, I tried Selmers, I even found a couple of old Leblanc and Buffet horns, and I went so far as to look for a Couf. (Couf is the saxophone equivalent of the Peugeot or the Citroen - they may make a quality product, but their dealers are a bit…ah…"thin on the ground", to put it mildly.) All had their good and bad points (price is a major bad one when talking Selmer, by the way), so I did not quickly make up my mind.
Then I was doing a short staffed production of Guys and Dolls with a friend who has "a few" saxes. My book (baritone/clarinet/bass clarinet) had a huge rest in the Havana number, and I found that the book that wasn't being covered for the most part (oboe, English horn and sax) had a long alto passage in harmony with the lead alto during that piece.
Knowing that Jim had a number of altos, I asked him if I could borrow one for the performances to cover that fragment and a couple of others. He replied that I could and that he would bring it to the next rehearsal.
What he brought was an old Conn, dating back to about 1922 by the serial number. It was there and then that I got to discover the "fat sound" possessed by the "old Conns", back when they were at a par with Selmer as to quality and tone.
As fortune would have it, I had bought an old alto many years ago with the intention of somehow converting it into a lamp. Acquired for an extra $25.00 as part of another horn deal, it was in pathetic condition, missing a couple of fittings (but not keys) and had a worn through neckstrap ring. My experience with Jim's old horn got me to dig it out of the attic (no basements here in Houston), and sure enough, it too was a Conn, only one of their pro ("Artist") models.
I bought it for the engraving (nifty picture of some woman named Helen Willson on the bell, not a typical Conn engraving of your abstract naked lady), but after six hundred odd dollars in repair, stripping and refinishing (original finish was gold plate, but it was worn down to bare metal on the back of the horn; I went with silver instead), I've got a wonderful horn that is the envy of every Conn player that I meet.
Of course, it's got keywork from hell (the left little finger keys seem designed by a prehensile ape), and "It's not a Mark VI." But, those who down Conns just don't know what they are talking about.
I tried a cross section of clarinets when I bought my pro level horns, but ultimately decided on Selmer for evenness of scale and tone (what knocked Buffet out - none had an "even" throat tone to clarinet register transition for me), and for the keywork (the big downer for Leblanc - they felt like you were holding a log back in the Sixties). When it comes time to buy again, even though I've been very happy with my Series 9 Bb and A horns, I'll go through the same process again…but I'll also consider German horns as well. (Bought an "Oehler" Bb early last year…a different road and one worth traveling, in my experience.)
And, if you could still reliably find uncracked Albert horns, I'd throw them in the mix as well; I've played them in the past and enjoyed their plusses (while deploring their minuses). Woody Allen got Selmer to make him a new one, but I don't see them listed in the showbook…
Ya never know what you might find out if you only sample what's out there.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-01-10 07:13
This thread just seems to remind me of those purists out there who will pay money through the noise for a 'numbers matching' classic car.
Like you said, you really got a deal. Maybe it's a literal 'mutt' of a clarinet, but you found out that it does the job it was intended for, and apparantly quite nicely. Congrats on the steal!
And as for Terry's last comment "Ya never know what you might find out if you only sample what's out there,", that's a phrase which pretty much describes my association with clarinets and clarinet related accessories (as any who have seen my threads and postings can clearly see!)
So I'm glad that there's someone else on this board that readily admits and condones my inability to settle!
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Fred
Date: 2005-01-10 14:08
That's why I've accumulated a musical zoo consisting of R13's, Selmer CT, Selmer 10, SML (King Marigaux), F-numbered Buffets, a Silver King, and enough others to make me forget what all I've got. Wonderful experiences all . . .
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