 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Firebird
Date: 2004-10-02 16:30
How do you know if a clarinet has blown out by listening to the sound or intonation? I have been playing on a 1928 Buffet Bb/A pair.
Chan
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-10-02 16:39
Eric Hoeprich plays on an August Grenser clarinet from ca. 1790.
Do clarinets really blow out?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dori
Date: 2004-10-02 16:57
Excuse my ignorance, but what is meant by a "blown out" instrument?
Thanks.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: William
Date: 2004-10-02 17:06
Sometimes referred to as "swabbed to death". Some people believe that after years of swabbing the bore of your clarinet, the accoustical integrity changes (with wear) and therefore does not perform as well. I even encountered a NYC musician who believed mouthpieces should be changed every few years because they become "blown out". For me, the jury is still out--and will remain out as there just is no real consensus or actual proof that the blow out phenonom is a reality or just all in the way one listens (which physically changes with age).
Personally, I kon't pay much attention to either blow out or swab out theory. Like the Duke said, "If it (clarinet/mouthpiece) sounds good, it is good".
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hans
Date: 2004-10-02 17:57
Chan,
I think there is a good description of the bore damage/"blown out" issue on a BB sponsor's web site:
http://www.naylors-woodwind-repair.com/
I agree with William's attitude: sounds good=good.
Regards,
Hans
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-10-02 18:17
I also do NOT subscribe to the blown-out theory, having worked-up quite a few [wood] oldies including some pre 1899's. It is of course possible that aged wood , even if "conditioned" by occasional [good] bore-oilings will shrink, ?making up for bore enlargement by swabbing? so that the cl's pitch doesn't change appreciably. I suspect that we players change more than our good cls do. Just some {heretical?] thots, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2004-10-02 18:48
Many clarinets which may feel "blown-out" can often be revitalized with a newer (or different) barrel ...GBK (whose primary orchestral set is a 1965 R-13 A clarinet and a 1967 R-13 Bb clarinet)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ben
Date: 2004-10-02 21:43
Most of the people I have known who think clarinets blow out think they do so in 3-6 years. Yet, most of the top pros seem to play instruments well older than this.
If an instrument is great, and well taken care of, and repaired when necessary, I think it ought to last a long time. This is not to say they won't change slightly over the years, but the changes do not necessarily make a good instrument into a bad one.
What I think more likely is the PLAYER changes much more than the instrument with time! Maybe the clarinetists who complain about their instruments being blown out, are really just victims of the 'grass is always greener on the other side' scenario; or looking for an excusse to by the latest and the greatest.
It would not surprise me if the idea of 'blown out' instruments was started by the instrument companies (Buffet, Selmer, etc.), so they could sell more instruments. Does anyone know when or where this idea started?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2004-10-02 22:04
I agree.
We had a show here with each episode about building a different instrument. I watched the episode about clarinet and what they showed was from the Buffet factory. The person explained that clarinets usually become worse after 6-10 years and need to be replaced. Obviously that is not true since many fine players use older instruments.
From my experience though my 12 years old R13 is definitely not as good as it was when I first bought it, but I think that is because I didn't take good enough care of it, and an overhaul should fix that.
Good luck whatever clarinet you use.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-02 22:27
I think that "blow-out" probably, most often, means either "needs DECENT servicing", or "player's conceptual expectations have changed".
However one of the most most difficult tasks a technician faces is removing a hard build-up from the undercutting of tone holes, so it probably seldom gets done. It does not wash off, and solvents do not remove it. It consists of a composite of calcium deposits and lint. Accessibility poses a real problem for scrapers, and if undercutting tools (which very few technicians have) are used, they could well be a different profile from those used originally, hence messing up the undercutting.
This destruction of the undercutting, and its rough texture could be responsible for the phenomenon.
There is heaps of opinion on blow-out to be found by using the search facility.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Snowy
Date: 2004-10-03 07:07
Just to add to the mix I recently heard (2nd hand) that my grandson's Armstrong 104 flute (all metal except for pads) was in the opinion of his teacher "blown out".
Knocked about it might have been but "blown out ?). I don't think so
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-10-03 19:30
I subscribe to it.
Possible problem is that the bore dimension changes from the top of the Clarinet's wood starting to rot (upper joint entrance after the barrel) and changes the dimension. The top of the joint is a really good place to add bore oil from time to time to help prevent the change.
That's what Jim Pyne told me about Blow out when I was talking w/him and Ricardo at dinner one night after a concert.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: vin
Date: 2004-10-03 20:44
Harold Wright often told people that he felt a clarinet reached the end of its peak performance after about 9 years. I don't think it was he who was blowing out!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-03 22:42
About the time it needs a really decent overhaul?
David: Rot after just a few years? That must be very, very rare. I've seen rot in the soft timber of bassoons, but I don't think I've ever seen it in a clarinet.
The bore becoming non-circular in cross-section... now that IS a possibility.
Post Edited (2004-10-03 22:43)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-10-03 22:45
Maybe "rot" is too strong of a word - more like the wood changes from the moisture.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Fred
Date: 2004-10-04 01:20
I know Greg Smith subscribes to the blown-out concept.
I wish I could score one of his ruined ones. ![[right]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie8.gif)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hartt
Date: 2004-10-04 04:04
Blown out?....Let's see, air is blown into the mp and blown out the bell (and tone holes).
We all know that proper care and maintenance is the critical issue so, I won't belabor concepts from above.
However, Gordon's comment of " The bore becoming non-circular in cross-section... now that IS a possibility "......is factual.
In a recent phone convo with Greg Smith, we discussed 'stuffiness'. Long story short........a clarinet's bore was re-reamed. The result was visual evidence of the reaming on different 'sides' / surfaces within the bore. Result....stuffiness somewhat relieved. This shrinking of wood would also impact the undercutting and tone holes.
So yes, a clarinet and it's bore shrink non - concentrically
I'm not at liberty to mention where this procedure can be done. However, if a 'repairman' dosen't know PRECISELY what needs to be done and how, (assuming posession the proper eqpt)......your awesome R13 can turn into a Bundy reject in short order.
for Fred..........yes, Greg does subscribe to the blown out concept and keep wishing...........I triiiied but it didn't happen and it's not going to ! ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
eefereefer
dc (:o)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DAVE
Date: 2004-10-04 04:23
I also subscribe to it. It seems to me that since you are supposed to break in a new clarinet because it is not used to the vibrations, etc. then why wouldn't this process continue? Most clarinet players can tell a new clarinet from an old one, so why then wouldn't a clarinet, as it ages, continue to play worse? Inmy case, I had a beutiful set of Leblanc Concerto clarinets that over the course of seven years got so out of tune that they became utterly useless.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-04 12:54
"....you are supposed to break in a new clarinet because it is not used to the vibrations, etc."
I regard that as a total myth perpetuated by sales-people who do not have the inclination or the resources to get the clarinet properly set up.
Any breaking period is the breaking in of the player. This SHOULD consist of the player getting used to the acoustic and key layout idiosyncrasies of the instrument model, but all too often includes the player having to get used to the poor factory adjustment of the instrument, learning to subconsciously press certain keys harder, or getting used to unnecessarily high resistance with certain keys.
A poorly adjusted instrument does not automatically get better adjusted by playing!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-04 13:00
"....So yes, a clarinet and it's bore shrink non - concentrically "
Perhaps not if the instrument was made from heartwood.
Presumably this MAY be a feature you pay extra for if you buy a maker's top model.
Some organ pipes have a square cross section, and so does an oboe that a NZ guy made. What is the significance of that, if a precisely circular bore is so important. Just wondered.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-10-04 21:50
Gordon - I believe I remember mention of a square C S cl , by Brymer, Rendall, or other, but we have Benade's ?conclusions? on tube configurations to go by, I think they were all circular C S, ?not even elliptical? [as in billiard balls ?] ! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2004-10-05 01:03
I like the elliptical billiard balls reference. Wonderful concept from a clever librettist.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Firebird
Date: 2004-10-05 01:09
So based on what you guys said? When a clarinet is blown out, the tuning changes dramatically?
Chan
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-10-05 14:27
There are many threads on the subject of blow out. One of the best is at http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=15949&t=15910.
Wood may swell or shrink, producing changes in resposne and tuning. The cure usually is a re-reamed or new barrel, since that's where most of the changes take place. However, according to Alan Swiney, a former Moennig apprentice, blow out is usually caused by deposits that build up in the tone holes, which need to be removed. For more, see the above thread and the links I included in my posting there.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: William
Date: 2004-10-05 15:19
Perhaps Gregory Smith (who I know personally and have the utmost respect of as a person and a master musician) has been sitting in front of the world famous Chicago Brass for too long a time and may be experiancing the same inner ear damage that I have suffered due to a lifetime of enduring the loud sounds of my teaching and performing duties. The problem is that this damage may go unnoticed for years until tinitus developes and--as with me--a clinical examine confirms hearing loss, usually in the upper hearing range first. This is why I now advocate the use of ear plugs for everyone who must endure overly loud sounds in our daily lives--but most expecially, musicians performing along with (or in front of) amplifiers and loud instruments such as most brass. I even wear my ear plugs in public where amplified music is played at what I consider "blastissismo" levels--bars, some movie theator and live musical performances, a recent Elton John concert, etc. Although my use of ear plugs will not revese the hearing lose I am already experiancing (and the tinitus), I hope to prevent further damage and keep what hearing I have left. However, it is best to use preventive measures before the damage begins, so all you clarinetist out there who must play in overly loud situations, use some ear protection even if you think the FF levels do not bother you. Your hearing will "go" before you realize it--and it cannot be rejuvinated.
Bottom line: EAR PLUGS!!!! (can you hear me?)
Post Edited (2004-10-05 15:22)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-10-05 16:16
Very well said, Wm and Ken, you describe my experience/feelings quite precisely. Dont we musicians blow out before our horns do ?? On the subject of hearing, I believe it was in my [long past] 50-60's when I first noticed tinitus, and on consulting hearing experts, found I also had hearing loss, as I recall more in my right ear than the left ! Happily, even playing mainly in [loud] Comm. Bands any more, it has not become much worse, tho TV/FM and the BW need to be louder ! My poor eyes need more light also. On the subject of 4-sided clarinets, Gordon, Rendall describes the Schaffner cl in his book [on several pages], but the bore shape is[are] not clear to me, tho part of the outside is square, with 4-sided [rhombus]? shaped tone holes, apparently, not a very successful design. Like we used to say in the patent business, theres not much new under the sun ! , [but what there is should be pursued IMHO] . Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gregory Smith ★2017
Date: 2004-10-05 18:36
William said:
"Perhaps Gregory Smith (who I know personally and have the utmost respect of as a person and a master musician) has been sitting in front of the world famous Chicago Brass for too long a time and may be experiancing the same inner ear damage that I have suffered due to a lifetime of enduring the loud sounds of my teaching and performing duties."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can assure you and everyone else that my hearing has been protected and tested frequently by an audiologist over the course of my career with absolutely no changes being diagnosed.
Gregory Smith
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
