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Author: Ben
Date: 2004-09-20 05:11
That's too bad. Tonight on the local classical radio station in Los Angeles the radio spokesman spoke of this, too. He speculated that the same thing could easily happen with the other major orchestras in the US, as some others are over budget as well.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-09-20 09:40
$105,040 is a lot of money for an orchestral job by international standards. A lot of musicians would LOVE to have a job like that. Sometimes I think we lucky ones don't really appreciate what we have!
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-09-20 12:22
The pay is that because they are one of the very best of the best Orchestras in the World. Most Orchestras Internationally don't pay that because they can't hold a candle to that group.
Compare it to the Berlin Phil or the London Sym (except that the UK doesn't pay their workers much for any job!@).
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Author: JessKateDD
Date: 2004-09-20 12:40
The orchestra and musicians have agreed to a contract extension through October 20. Hopefully they will be able to resolve their differences by then.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-09-20 12:53
The board is pretty brutal. I remember back in 97 (somewhere around that) when they went on strike that the board referred to the musicians as "entertainers".
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-09-20 14:19
"Compare it to the Berlin Phil or the London Sym "
The starting salary in the Berlin Phil is a lot less than $105,040. A principal player in the London symhony orchestra wouldn't get more than $90,000. Considering that London is the second most expensive city in the world and Berlin has a higher cost of living than Philadelphia, I'd say that the Philly musicians are getting paid EXTREMELY well. It seems that musicians in the USA don't seem to realise how well off they are compared to other countries?
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Author: William
Date: 2004-09-20 14:26
Hmmm,,,,,,,,,they (musicians) are complaining about a minimum salary of $105,000??
In my old school district, the minimum salary paid for a full time teacher is about $28,000.
Am I the only one that thinks something is amiss with our priorities here?
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-09-20 14:37
Not the case in Phila - more like $40,000 starting
And the UK pays their workers horribly - that is well known.
Also, there is Million% times more competition for a spot in the Philadelphia Orchestra than for a Public School Teachers position.
And Yes - a teacher is more important.
So if you want to compare inequities in pay than lets talk Sports Personalities  Teachers are more important than those too.
What is wrong with Phila. to me is that they want to pay their Pianist a full time salary for "substitute" time work.
That just doesn't (to me) cut it. Pay a player full time only if they are in the performances full time.
Orchestral Pianists and Harpists shouldn't be making the same as a section Violinist.
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Author: jmsa
Date: 2004-09-20 14:48
Good news. I live in Philadelphia and our local newspaper this morning reports that a strike has been averted and Tuesday evenings opening concert will go on as scheduled. The current contract has been extended for thirty days. Officials said that the talks would set the tone for pending negotiations in othe large U.S. cities.
jmsa
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-09-20 15:13
Liquorice wrote:
> It seems that
> musicians in the USA don't seem to realise how well off they
> are compared to other countries?
However, the lack of professional jobs in the USA more than compensates for the disparity ... the average musician doesn't have a performance oriented job, and there is almost no likelyhood of brand new ones appearing. That problem is less so in other areas of the world.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2004-09-20 15:37
The original article that was posted said "The musicians' minimum salary under the old contract was $105,040". Where do you get a $40,000 starting salary from David Blumberg? Or am I reading the article incorrectly?
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Author: steve s
Date: 2004-09-21 02:59
>The pay is that because they are one of the very best of the best Orchestras in the World. Most Orchestras Internationally don't pay that because they can't hold a candle to that group.
garbage. they're paid as per a union contract based on free market considerations, like any other group of skilled workers who engage in collective bargaining.
>The board is pretty brutal. I remember back in 97 (somewhere around that) when they went on strike that the board referred to the musicians as "entertainers".
they're not entertainers? they operate musical instruments at a very high professional level for the enjoyment of an audience; it sounds like they are entertainers to me. And as such, a starting salary of one hundred thousand dollars is pretty low for a skilled entertainer. But then again, that seems to be a tradition in the area of musical entertainment.
Nevertheless, the economic reality is that the Philadelphia Orchestra is undergoing a multi-year money hemorrhage. All participants, namely consumers, management, and labor are going to have to figure out some way to maintain the economic viability of the institution.
Perhaps if we paid more than $40,000 starting salary for a teacher, our educational system would produce more people who value art and culture.
s.
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-09-21 03:29
David Blumberg your comment:
Most Orchestras Internationally don't pay that because they can't hold a candle to that group.
Please back this statement up, thanks with hard facts and figures.
Or was your comment a broad sweeping statement made on the spure of the moment? (we've all been guilty of that).
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-09-21 04:23
----------------
Or was your comment a broad sweeping statement made on the spure of the moment? (we've all been guilty of that).
---------------
Yup You don't think that the competition for a positition in the Phila. Orchestra is more competitive than most Orchestras?
Think again
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-09-21 04:32
And remember this one
$105,000 a year isn't that much for income. In the business world it's Middle Management.
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Author: diz
Date: 2004-09-21 06:40
David ... to be perfectly honest, I'm not American so I sadly don't have the competitive edge hardwired into me from birth ...
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: graham
Date: 2004-09-21 07:29
From the land of paupers can I say that I have the feeling it is not the money that matters as much as the relationships between the functionaries (musicians) and the strategists. No amount of money stops proud independent minded people feeling exasperated when they feel they are being treated unreasonably by those people who are not themselves obliged to deliver the final product. What the players have to ensure however is that they do not let their frustration and rage ruin what looks, financially speaking, to be a "cushy number".
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Author: vin
Date: 2004-09-21 22:46
Diz- please, i'd LOVE some more generalizations about Americans. Maybe my sarcasm is hardwired into my brain because I'm from New York. Stop generalizing about people; We are here to talk about orchestras and both Berlin and Philadelphia are obviously orchestras that few can hold a candle to. They pay close to the best and you need a "competitive edge" to get into them where ever you were born. Being a member of an orchestra currently in contract negotiations, all labor issues in both big and small orchestras are far more complicated than the base salary number no matter how "cushy" it may look.
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Author: steve s
Date: 2004-09-22 03:02
I agree that this topic has become hackneyed. This is unfortunate, because some very important issues could be discussed here. I'm sure that it has been pointed out many times that classical music, especially live classical music performance, is becoming marginalized in the American cultural arena. This is happening in conjunction with the trend in which we no longer have a "Big five" pantheon of great orchestras in this country. It is entirely possible to show up in a place like Milwaukee or Cincinnati and hear some first-class musicmaking from the local orchestra. I'm reasonably sure that starting pay for these guys is nowhere near that of the Philadelphia Orchestra. In fact, you can even find in "unlikely markets" such as Nashville or Buffalo a superb sounding orchestra. So, paradoxically, we have a situation in which there is a massive oversupply of worker talent with rapidly shrinking consumer demand. Something has got to give.
is competition for a job in the Philadelphia Orchestra intense? Yes, so what?
I hear that the principal job in St. Louis may be opened soon. I can't imagine any less competition.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-09-22 03:25
Remember this:
Nashville and Buffalo combined can't touch Phila. and the players in them would have been students of Phila. Orchestra members.
And St. Louis while being a very, very fine Orchestra isn't Phila. either.
More comparable to Houston, Dallas, or Atlanta.
Post Edited (2004-09-22 12:51)
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Author: steve s
Date: 2004-09-22 13:04
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> Remember this:
>
> Nashville and Buffalo combined can't touch Phila. and the
> players in them would have been students of Phila. Orchestra
> members.
>
Again, so what? Furthermore, to the casual listener, the difference is negligible. You and I as musicians could probably tell the difference, and my wife, who loves classical music could care less. To the best of my knowledge however, Nashville is not running a deficit. They have a high profile music director who spends a lot of time involved with development activities and community outreach. And I'm sure the starting salary is nowhere near $100,000 per annum.
One of those things that makes classical music unpalatable to many people is a not so subtly disguised current of elitism that seems to saturate some of its devotees. The thing that turns me off about football and Phila. is watching the screaming fans bellowing "the eagles are number one" and going into fits at the mere suggestion that another football team exists.
Let's return to my original point: the balance between highly skilled labor and demand in the classical music arena in America is way out of balance. What is going to give? The answer that Ricardo morales is a better clarinet player than the principal clarinet player in the Delawares Symphony Orchestra (a curtis student who I am sure you know) is simply not germane to the issue.
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Author: steve s
Date: 2004-09-22 13:09
Sorry, I meant to say Curtis graduate. And the last time I heard Charlie play he played very well.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-09-22 13:15
-----------------------------------------------------
Let's return to my original point: the balance between highly skilled labor and demand in the classical music arena in America is way out of balance. What is going to give? The answer that Ricardo morales is a better clarinet player than the principal clarinet player in the Delawares Symphony Orchestra (a curtis student who I am sure you know) is simply not germane to the issue.
-------------------------------------------------------
How about the fact that the Delaware Sym players don't earn enough to even begin to make a living doing it? A job that doesn't pay over $14,000 a year isn't really a "job" it's a temporary gig - piecemeal work. The Assistant Clarinetist was a band director for a middle school during the day.
A string player I know collects more unemployment than probably makes from the Orchestra!
There is way too much skilled labor and not nearly enough jobs and pay to begin to go around. We can thank the music schools for that as they continue to pump out tuition paying players yearly.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-09-22 13:18
Charlie is a very good player but can he touch Ricardo?
nope, but then again very few can.
I agree that the Sports fans in Phila. are mostly idiots.
ps: I won $100 on Monday's game
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Author: steve s
Date: 2004-09-22 14:09
>How about the fact that the Delaware Sym players don't earn enough to even begin to make a living doing it? A job that doesn't pay over $14,000 a year isn't really a "job" it's a temporary gig - piecemeal work. The Assistant Clarinetist was a band director for a middle school during the day.
A string player I know collects more unemployment than probably makes from the Orchestra!
And if there was a consumer demand in northern Delaware for a high-powered Orchestra, they would have a 52-week season and be paid a lot more. But that demand doesn't exist. Furthermore, I would be willing to speculate that if the demand did exist, the board would be made out of DuPont executives who would realize that they could meet the demand with much lower labor costs because of the oversupply of skilled musicians, who are almost as good as Ricardo. That's my point. These salaries enjoyed by musicians in the majors are artificially inflated with respect to labor supply and consumer demand by powerful unions. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but this is the reality. In the Delaware Symphony, not only did vince teach in a middle school, but he runs a specialty shop selling high-end clarinets and saxophones. His son, who is also an excellent musician, made the decision to be a scientist, and worked with me for several years at GSK. Our salaries were near the starting salary of the Philadelphia Orchestra and went up every year. We had no union representation and didn't need any, because the skills we presented were in very short supply and that's what they have to pay us to keep us from going to another company who desired our services just as badly. And the only people who kept on pointing fingers saying scientist a is a better scientist than scientist b are people who didn't have enough to do during the day.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2004-09-22 14:38
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> Remember this:
>
> Nashville and Buffalo combined can't touch Phila. and the
> players in them would have been students of Phila. Orchestra
> members.
Sez you. I lived in Buffalo during the tenure of Lukas Foss. Buffalo & Foss produced one of the finest of its time.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-09-22 14:42
GSK
X wife and her husband both are upper executives for GSK.
This Winter they are going to be on a Nationally run GSK ad on TV.
They are wearing winter coats and my daughter says after her step dad (light skinned black guy) describes that he works as a head of Infectious Diseases she says "ugh" or something like that as a comment. X-wife is the Short Blonde, my Daughter has long brown hair and doesn't look like her much at all. It was filmed this past summer in NC. and was really hot (winter scene but in 90 degree weather)
Vince started his specialty shop after retiring from the middle school in 1992 if I recall. Anyway - it's impossible to play a job like that and make a living. You are forced to get another job or play many other gigs too just to make ends meet. Many members teach at U. Del, etc to get by.
It's a lot easier to get work full time as a scientist than a musician - and they get paid a whole lot more too!
Post Edited (2004-09-22 14:47)
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2004-09-22 15:45
Gee...I am sure glad I started this thread. More info than I imagined.
![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
p.s. for Dave et al. I grew up in Phila, learned clarinet there, but now live near Pittsburgh.
We have a pretty nifty orchestra here, too.
Just like in the NFL (that REAL football) on any given (Sun)day, any pro team/orchestra can be tops.......etc etc
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-09-22 15:53
Who did you study with?
btw - my first date in College was with a Masters Student who's now Principal Oboe w/Pitt.
They are a great Orchestra and the pay scale is more similar to Phila. but it's not a "big 5" Orchestra and the players in Pitt. audition for Phila.
It isn't hardly ever the other way around (unless it's a section player auditioning for a principal spot)
Post Edited (2004-09-23 03:19)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-09-22 16:01
The pay for musicians just sucks.
To raise cash, my friend sold his tux.
He got a new job,
Working right near Charles Schwab,
Delivering pizzas from trucks ...GBK
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-09-22 16:03
Here's where the discussion gets heated
The writer of the Phila. Inquirer Article about the Orchestra possibly going on strike when asked about the article responded
"The theory is that they have to play in more pieces on a given
concert, while wind players often only play two pieces on a concert.
For example, Mozart pieces sometimes don't use trumpet or trombone;
harps and tuba came along later in the development of the orchestra,
so they are often not called for. Strings always have to be there."
wow - that's just wrong!! The impression that I got was that they were taking about Harpist, Pianist - players who only play a few pieces a season, not players who are regular members of the orchestra and play almost every concert!!
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Author: Tom J.
Date: 2004-09-22 21:09
Forgive me GBK, I can only think in verse today . . .
If musicians and greed are related
Then by note they should all be pro-rated
Don't give 'em a dime
For their idle rest time
And see if their strike is abated
Tom J.
Post Edited (2004-09-22 21:10)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2004-09-22 22:10
Hey Steve - just found this one out:
A student of mine (he studied w/me till about 4 years ago - graduated college back in 1996 and was the Orchestra Director of Philadelphia's CAPA (Creative & Performing Arts High School) right out of College just got the job as the Band Director for the High School that Vince's students feeded into!
Pretty coincidental I just saw Vince at Ricardo's masterclass/workshop
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Author: steve s
Date: 2004-09-23 00:02
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> Hey Steve - just found this one out:
>
> A student of mine (he studied w/me till about 4 years ago -
> graduated college back in 1996 and was the Orchestra Director
> of Philadelphia's CAPA (Creative & Performing Arts High School)
> right out of College just got the job as the Band Director for
> the High School that Vince's students feeded into!
>
> Pretty coincidental I just saw Vince at Ricardo's
> masterclass/workshop
>
very small world! Although I am not surprised, it seems that when you play clarinet, you are no more than 1 degree separated from everybody.
I'm sorry that I missed Ricardo's master class and workshop. I'm sure that it was fantastic.
I noticed the Orchestra roster as listing five people in the clarinet section, with the former principal listed last. who will be covering what part?
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Author: thechosenone
Date: 2004-09-23 00:36
Yes, I'd have to agree that the Morales workshop was excellent (I was one of the players). Selmer clarinets are great as well.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-09-23 02:42
[ To all: Let's take the personal conversations off-line. Thanks - GBK ]
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Author: allencole
Date: 2004-09-23 15:24
Trying to make brass players part-time? That's certainly a strikeworthy issue, and does increase my sympathy for the potential strikers.
THAT SAID...I do think that many union orchestra musicians fail to appreciate just how lucky they are (despite their considerable credentials) compared both to other musicians and to other union workers.
I won't go into comparisons to other musicians, because there is plenty in this thread already.
But union musicians in those kinds of jobs already have very good in comparison with many other union workers. New rail and postal workers are often classified as on-call or part-time (often while far exceeding 40 hours per week) and their work hours may be subject to the whims of anyone above them. Union workers are often subject to layoffs, and in many industries can be 'bumped' from their positions in favor of senior workers.
There was a tremendous brouhaha here in Richmond a few years back when the symphony received a large donation and offered a buyout plan to some of its senior members. From all the fuss, one would've thought that they were engaging in mass layoffs or even mass executions. All this fuss despite the fact that no one was forced into anything, and there was no firing.
Granted, you could probably become president of GM with less effort than it would take to get a seat in the Philadelphia Orchestra, but I do wonder if orchestral musicians at those levels of pay adequately consider the health of their organization.
While I was on the road in SW VA about five years ago, the president of the United Mine Workers paid a visit to the area. His purpose was to admonish the local school children to do well in their studies and not to count on employment in the coal mines, where miners average around $50,000 per year. The domestic coal industry can't compete in foreign markets with other foreign suppliers, and that means less mining in VA, fewer coal trains on the rails, and fewer coal ships leaving Hampton Roads. Workers and management are not in a vacuum. If overhead rises above sales, worker/management issues become meaningless.
While I think that freelance musicians probably have a good appreciate of this, steadily employed musicians should tread lightly if their employers already require subsidies in order to survive.
Allen Cole
Post Edited (2004-09-23 15:29)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2004-09-23 16:07
Well to be honest I am quite surprised this thread has taken on such proportions...in Canada here we have a very fine group in Ottawa which had it's brass section become part time. Well, to be honest this has led to alot of people just simply moving out and getting on to bigger orchestras and leaving behind few players who can tackle the job. So..by having the brass become part time really means it is no longer a real orchestra..
In Berlin and London if this happened the players would simply riot...somehow North American's take alot of this stuff sitting down.
As to the Philly orchestra...the strings are certainly no where near the standard they once were...I do think the brass and strings are the best about though!
David Dow
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