 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: TooManyHorms
Date: 2003-12-04 19:59
I play a Conn 464N, and curious about its history. I've seen posts for 424N's and 444N's, but have never seen anything on the web about the 464N. I don't have the serial number at hand, but recall that the number could be traced to the 1930's. For those playing 424's and 444's, what is your barrel of choice?
TooManyHorns
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2003-12-05 04:07
Don't know the 464N. Sure you don't have a 446N? 18 key/7 ring, articulated G#, medallion on the bell?
I'm a jazz doubler, and have had a 424N and 446N for quite awhile as backups to my Selmer B-Ts. I usually use a CLiCK barrel on the job due to unpredictable temperatures and warmup time. I also have a few other Conns around as part of a collection.
I like the free-blowing qualities and big tone of the Conns, and I'm endeared to Conn product of that era because I play their saxes. But after having been educated for years that they're not very fine clarinets, I'm predictably beginning to find them a little lacking. There's a subtlety that isn't there – they hiss air at low volumes in a way Selmers don't. There are also intonation issues with the 424, but not so many with the 446. (Of course, by today's standards, no clarinet this old is "in tune.")
What sort of music do you use your Conn for? What sort of mouthpiece setup do you like? (I use a Vandoren/V12 reed/Bonade ligature, as on the Selmers. Sometimes I substitute a Conn Steelay mpc.)
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Author: TooManyHorms
Date: 2003-12-05 13:43
paulwl,
Thanks for setting me straight on the model number; you're probably right about it being a 446N. It's been awhile since I looked at the engraving, but your description is accurate.
With so many other horns that I use on a gig (sop., tenor, bari sax, flute, harmonicas, whistles), I try to keep only one of any instrument, so I use it for anything that comes up. I purchased this horn from a retired music professor, and he had intonation inserts glued into the finger tone holes, so the horn's intonation is very good. However, I never play legit music such as orchestra or small chamber, so maybe the intonation is not as good as I think it is.
I use a Greg Smith (Kaspar style) Chicago mp with V12's, and Rovner lig. As far as barrels, I also use a click barrel at times. This combination gives me a good combination of focused tone and ability to bend notes, which seems to be a natural occurence of things I do.
TooManyHorns
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2003-12-05 14:54
My 424N has the model number stamped before the serial number, on both sections.
What are the differences between these different models?
And I didn't know there was really such a thing as "Too Many Horns".
Thanks
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2003-12-05 18:05
You can never have too many horns. I don't know about "horms." ;-)
I forgot to mention the note bending capability. Conns, clarinet or sax, are flexible almost to a fault. Some seller on eBay occasionally touts them as klezmer instruments – they'd be great for all that scooping and wailing.
Differences between various models:
The 424N might have been a copy in wood of the ebonite 24N from the 20s. It has the same oval brand name stamps. The keywork is a lot the same, except for a protective ring for the bridge.
The 444N (medallion bell model) came out in the early 30s and was advertised as a total redesign to state-of-the-art tuning and machining standards. There was more refined keywork and action, improved intonation, and features like post locks and set screws. 444N was the standard 17/6 Boehm. There was also 446N, 18/7, and 448N, full Boehm 20/7. (Conn apparently no longer made an A clarinet by that time, although they'd do anything on custom order.)
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Author: TooManyHorms
Date: 2003-12-06 03:53
Well, I checked when I arrived home, and curiously, both pieces are stamped "464N" (and not 446N) with a serial number of B293170L (again on both pieces). I suppose this places the date of manufacture closer to 1940. It sure sounds like the 446N described above by paulwl, with 18 key/7 ring, articulated G#, medallion on the bell.
Also, when I bought this, two original Conn barrels came with it. One marked "38" that is 63mm, the other marked "K" that is 62mm.
TooManyHorns
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2003-12-06 14:33
So there IS a 464N...who knows. Conn did strange things. My 446N has a K barrel that's 64mm!
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-12-06 22:40
>>>>>>The 424N might have been a copy in wood of the ebonite 24N from the 20s. It has the same oval brand name stamps. The keywork is a lot the same, except for a protective ring for the bridge.<<<<<<<
I overhauled several Conn 24N clarinets and found no similarity to Conn 424N what so ever.
I have had four Conn 424N's in my collection and I can tell you they were absolutely identical to Conn 444N except the little medallion insert on the Bell on the 444N. Both Conn 424N and 444N have headless screws and little locking screws on the posts to lock them in place and both have tone hole inserts (chimneys). The same bore size, keywork and a protective ring for the bridge.
Conn 24N had a regular shaped keywork and regular screws and no protective ring for the bridge.
The EARLY US made Conn 280N Constellation models have the same design like Conn 444N (including medallion)
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2003-12-07 00:19
Hmm, maybe my horn is special! :-) I'll try and post some pictures of the 424N if anyone's interested. Mine's definitely a more barebones instrument than my 446N. It has more similarities with my 1927 34N (just like the 24N but has a trill ring for LH Eb/Bb). Yes folks, I have Conns the way some people have cats...
BTW, Vytas, do you remember auctioning a Conn Albert to me (paulwl) on eBay? It is a great horn with beautiful tone...altho I'm still trying to get the hand of the right hand position after several months. Looks like you do nice work.
Post Edited (2003-12-07 00:25)
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2003-12-07 14:27
Nice shape it's in...looks just like mine, except that mine's kind of beat. Is that a pinning on the lower joint?
It looks like I left my 424N out west at the folks' place after al, so I'm grateful to you for posting the pic.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-12-07 18:44
paulwl,
I've noticed that the early 'Eagle' models and the horns marked C.G. Conn are better quality instruments than those that are simply marked Conn USA (II war and after period). My Conn 424N from 1950 had no logo, had pot metal posts, and wood quality was a bid lower. Besides that horn had very nice tone and reasonable intonation. See the pic
BTW, Thank you for your kind words concerning my work. Yes, I remember you and the horn. It was an older 'Eagle' model with wraparound register key and if I remember correct horn came with original 'Eagle' mouthpiece.
Vytas Krass
Post Edited (2003-12-07 18:51)
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2003-12-08 01:34
Exactly my horn, except mine has the oval stamps and a 1941 serial number.
Yes Vytas, the Albert I bought from you had an Eagle mouthpiece and barrel (but none on the bell). It's that wonderfully heavy resonant hard rubber with a beautiful strong tone. I'd always admired Kenny Davern's use of HR horns and I do think they have something special. Maybe not so refined tonally, but more "oomph" somehow. They vibrate differently, at least to the player.
You may well be right about the pre-WW2 Conns being of higher quality. In the case of saxes it's definitely true. In fact my 1921 Albert seems a more finely made thing in many ways than my 34N from 1927.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2003-12-08 14:07
It was perfect, except pads were shot, when I bought it for $40 at an antiques fair 12 years ago. It looked like it hadn't been touched in 40 years. The dealer wanted $150 for it, but I went back at the end of the day and offered all the cash I had in my pocket. He grumbled quite a bit, but took it.
I had it overhauled, and my dad played it in community bands for a while. This is when the barrel cracked, which is the only crack. The other mark on the picture is just dust.
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2003-12-08 15:58
Attachment: 34N_424N_uj.jpg (222k)
Attachment: 34N_424N_lj.jpg (255k)
Here are my 34N and 424N side by side. Key improvements are minor – except for that protective ring, a real boon. Otherwise a new post here, a set screw there. Note the oval stamps.
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2004-01-19 21:43
Attachment: claropen.JPG (67k)
A Conn 464N has turned up in an eBay listing. It is serialed #268xxx (1935).
It appears to be what I call a "17/7". It has the LH3 trill ring and extra mini pad for the LH stack, but NO articulated G# (only one cup on top of the lower joint) and no G# trill lever.
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2004-01-20 14:50
Obviously the successor model to the 34N.
Funny: in my 1927 Conn catalog, the 34N is advertised with "18 keys, 7 rings." I guess it depends whether you call the LH mini cup a "key." I don't because it doesn't have a finger touch. (It repays me for this slight by occasionally going out of seat, taking most of the horn out with it. No wonder they don't make these much any more...)
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Author: DezzaG
Date: 2004-06-22 09:49
I have a Conn with low E flat , LH G# and extra ring but no Art. G# could this be the 34N? It is made of hard rubber.
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Author: jmsa
Date: 2004-06-22 13:31
I have a friend that is in the process of overhauling a Conn 464N that was produced in 1937 and will be selling it on e-bay in about 2 weeks.
jmsa
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Author: Steven
Date: 2004-06-22 17:23
Anyone know about a Conn 44N Bb Albert system clarinet? I have one, its either ebonite or hard rubber, in need of an overhaul but it seems to require odd size pads. Apparently it needs shoulderless pads (at least on the lower joint) because the cutout arount the tone holes won't accomodate a pad that sticks out over the edge of the cup. Also, key heights are set so it would seem to require relatively thin pads. I picked this up cheap as a DIY experiment, but it was actually a surprisingly good sounding horn, and I'd like to complete the project with properly fitted pads.
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2004-06-23 16:10
The 464 is the same clarinet as the 444 EXCEPT it has the articulated G# and extra ring (According to Kerry Klingborg of Conn-Selmer). I had him do some research for me on this model recently. [as I enjoy a week of on "working" vacation!!]
jbutler
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-06-23 16:25
Well deserved, I'm sure, John B ! Re: Conns, I believe that America's Music Museum, at USD, Vermillion ,SD, inherited much, older Conn Info, and insts, am I correct Debbi Reeves/contragirl ?? We enjoyed our visit, wish to return, so may I suggest a trip to you, [NEVER] Too Many Horns. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-06-23 16:51
DezzaG,
The model number appears just before the serial number. If it's 34N it should read something like this:
34N E22222L
Sometimes it's very hard to see the serial number on CG Conn Hard Rubber clarinets as they inscribed very lightly.
Vytas Krass
Pro clarinet technician.
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker.
Former pro clarinet player.
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Author: Travis
Date: 2008-01-31 21:12
It's been a few years since anyone has posted in this thread. I recently acquired a 464n with serial # B29xxxx. Wondering if anyone has had any other experiences with this model besides what has already been posted?
Thanks.
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