 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Igloo Bob
Date: 2004-05-29 08:04
Though I can't post the link because I haven't tried to get permission, someone's selling a used but in "mint condition" Ridenour Bass Clarinet on ebay, and at my time of posting this, bidding was at about $500-ish. Though my planned trial of the Ridenour Bass is still about a month away, if any of you are interested in this, you might try running a search for it. I just searched "Ridenour Bass Clarinet" from the main page and found it.
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Author: Bob A
Date: 2004-05-30 13:46
Brought up more questions than it answered. Seller has poor referals in my thinking, and bad pictures taken at the worst possible angles to view. As the Romans said, "Caveat Emptor." I'd even question the '35' bids as four or five may be legit but the rest look to me like 'shills' to raise the price. If interested ask plenty questions and get it in writing regarding approval period if possible.
Bob A
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-05-30 19:50
Being in OK City, yesterday, after visiting with my friends at the Horn Trader's, I stopped by Larsen Music, a Brooks-Mays associate. I asked re: basses, Amanti [no], and Ridenour {YES!}. they brought out their 147 Bass cl which I looked at carefully, tried fingering it [good], didn't have my mp so didn't play it, but got a print-out of their sales info. Tom et al wrote up a favoring resume, telling of the good features of Ridenite and good construction and other features. It is a 2 piece, but locked together, in a long case, .975" bore [cylindrical], low Eb, no extra keys tho, single REGISTER vent [on the "top cap"] with large pad "pinch"Bb, but described as "double register key mechanism", inaccurate per my thots ! Ni plate, leather pads, peg and its mounting, neckstrap included, adj. T R, "pro designed for students". Their quoted price was $1095 [is all this OK?, MC/GBK?]. It appears to me to be good competition with Selmer USA, Vito et al. I plan to try-out this one, or another at the OU Symposium next week-end, and will post my thots. That's about all I know now! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2004-05-31 04:42
So the double register key turns out to be bogus? And I take it that "no extra keys" means no left hand Eb/Ab key which means that it is impossible to go from low Eb to Ab (moving up a fourth). Doesn't seem too much to ask for an instrument to be able to execute a basic interval like a fourth. So I guess the search for an inexpensive but decent playing bass continues.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-05-31 21:39
Well, "not exactly" bogus, R S, two "purposes" are served by the register key, but I like my Sel's 3, not counting the "half-hole" for altissimo playing. Yes, to me, the alt. Ab/Eb lever is the most useful of the 4 Full Boehm additions, tho I've not had many 4th/5th "jumps" from low Eb in what [comm.] band music I've played, but, point well taken. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: DezzaG
Date: 2004-06-01 04:50
There's a low E flat to A flat in Licolnshire Posey(sp) by Grainger. Great piece!!!
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2004-06-01 05:01
Don--not sure I understand how the register key on the Ridenhour bass works. I've always understood that "automatic double register key" means that there are two separate vents that are opened by a single thumb (left hand) key, with the lower of the vents opened from B to Eb and the higher vent opened from E on up. If the Ridenhour bass does not operate in this manner I don't see how it can be said to have an "automatic double register key".
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-06-01 15:25
R S, You are correct in your description of the register key [1{top of U J} or 2 {high [on neck] AND lower}] actions, IMHO. Dave S and perhaps Tom R, please help. The Ridenour "flyer" doesn't use the word "automatic", so I assume that their "double register key mechanism' is [poorly?] applied to operation of the pinch Bb [large] pad AND the single reg. key, up on the metal cap into which the neck tenon fits, much like my recollection of the older LeBlanc bass cl structure. From what I've seen/studied, the various makers over [about] 80 years of [improved] bass cl making have tried to solve this "stuffy" lower clarion tone/response problem in a number of diff. ways. I have a group of patents on these several mechanisms, most recent to Yamaha, but haven't seen this on their basses, perhaps may at the OU Symp this weekend! I'm sure not claiming any expertise in all this, I just try to observe how they work mechanically and how they sound re: the Bb and the lower clarion notes. All HELP welcomed. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2004-06-01 15:37
Yes I noticed that in the Brook Mays ad the exact words referring to the register key were "double register key mechanism" rather than "automatic double register key." This is something that calls out for clarification.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-06-01 15:44
Sounds like we've being duped again by the marketing types -- except that Mr. Ridenour knows better and should not have allowed such a ambiguous (or dare I say "misleading") description of 'his' bass clarinet design to appear in print. There is absolutely no question that the term "double register vent" means exactly what Robert Small described above --- any other 'interpretation' of the term is flummery (to steal one of Nero Wolfe's favorite words).
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2004-06-02 07:16
I'm still confused about vents, and you may remember that I've been involved in previous threads.
eg.
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=138482&t=138230
The terminology is not super clear, and there are obviously many different mechanical methods to control "automatic" register vents.
Discounting the mechanical linkages, and discounting the 'vent' in the left index finger pad for the altissimo, how many vents are used for the throat Bb and the clarion?
I have a Vito in front of me that has a large vent for the Bb only, and a small vent higher up, though not on the neck, for the entire clarion. That's TWO vents, and this sounds like the Ridenour system. I find the Bb to be great, and the clarion more or less difficult in some places. I understand some of you believe this is the natural condition for this system.
I have an SML (French, about 1970?) in front of me that has a not so large vent for the Bb and the clarion long B, C, and D, and another vent on the neck for the remainder of the clarion. That's also TWO vents. A 1920's Selmer I played recently had the similar two vents, though they were controlled manually with two touchpieces. And I thought I saw the same two vents (automatic, of course) on a fairly recent Paris Selmer. Did I dream this? I found the Bb stuffier, but the clarion better on the old Selmer and on my SML.
A better solution seems to be a separate vent for the Bb, and two vents for the clarion, though the mechanism would get more complex. That's THREE vents. Has this been done? Is that what you're referring to, Don, when you say "my Selmer's 3"?
If so, who has the three vents? Modern top of the line Buffets? (I'm pretty sure the intermediate Buffet has the two vent Vito, Ridenour system?) Modern Paris Selmers? Modern Amatis?
Thanks, in advance. What I've tried to do here is summarize the complete picture, and ask clearly for help on what still seems fuzzy.
Wayne Thompson
Post Edited (2004-06-02 07:27)
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Author: javier garcia m
Date: 2004-06-02 12:58
Wayne, modern professional basses have three vents, according to your description. One hole for the throat Bb, one hole for clarion B to E (Eb?) and another for the rest clarion. For high register it must be used the half-hole for the left finger.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-06-02 13:21
Short, but sweetly put, J G, IMHO there are two "styles" for left thumb manipulation, the "pro" version, 2 reg. vents with keys and mechanics for their "switching", and "tie-in" mechanics to the A key and/or the thumb [F/C]pad for the pinch Bb pad's operation, AND the "student" version for only the "tie-in" and the Bb operation of the SINGLE vent, no reg. vent switching needed. HELP! I find this description difficult, hope its not too garbled! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2004-06-02 14:23
Thanks, Javier. Since I've been studying bass (only a few months) I have not had my hands on a new Buffet or Selmer. Dave Spiegelthal, the Amati has these three vents, too? Anyone know when the Paris Selmer went from two to three vents?
Erhhh, yeh, Don, I think your last note is pretty difficult. I take it that your Selmer does have three vents and that your first sentence is trying to describe how it works? But your second reference to a student system is not clear. I've described two different 2-vent systems above without even mentioning the mechanics needed for them; the Vito sort of system is much simpler mechanically because it doesn't need that additional UJ-LJ link which distinguishes between the upper and lower clarion. Perhaps the Vito sort is what you call a student system?
I suspect it is NOT possible to put any of this short and sweetly!! LOL If someone wants to give me a Buffet 1193 or Selmer 37, I will volenteer to write definitive descriptions of all this, with great photos, and post them all here!!!
WT
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-06-02 14:38
Short and Sweet Attempt #3:
A true 'double register vent ' design, REGARDLESS of how the throat Bb is produced, switches from one vent opening to a higher vent opening when moving from the clarion Eb to clarion E. Thus a linkage, with a second bridge key (if the instrument has a two-piece body), is required to travel up from the key operated by the right-hand ring finger.
The Amatis and French Selmer basses have this. The Buffet 1183 and 1193 do, however the less expensive 1180 has a single vent. All Leblanc/Noblet/Vito basses except for the 430S Leblanc (I believe that's the top-of-the-line low C model) only have a single register vent. I've seen pictures of SMLs only, I think they made both types.
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Author: graham
Date: 2004-06-02 15:46
I think the confusion could arise in relation to the "3rd" hole. There is a separate side key for the B flat (prefered when convenient to reach), but only two holes are governed by the single register/speaker key. The lower of these two holes provides the inferior but more convenient B flat, and overblows the clarion notes B to E flat. For E and above ,the upper hole automatically replaces the dual purpose lower hole using the mechanism described by Dave
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-06-02 16:01
What we’ve defined here as a "double" mechanism always has a single register vent located at the top of the body and a throat Bb vent located at about the top of the throat A pad. It has no rod assembly running from the right ring finger mechanism to the register mechanism.
The "triple" mechanism always has a register vent on the metal neck, a second register vent located 1" or 2" below the top of the body, and a Bb vent located as on the double mechanism. It also has a rod assembly connecting the right ring finger and register mechanisms, and, on instruments with a 2-piece body, a bridge key. (For completeness, older basses had two separate register keys, both operated by the left thumb.)
The plastic Buffet BC 1180 has a double mechanism. http://www.musicgroup.com/Instruments/Database/FrameInstrumentList.htm, screen 4. The granadilla BC 1183 and BC 1193 have a triple mechanism.
For many years (as I recall, up to the late 1960s, Leblanc made only double mechanism basses. The Vito 7166 http://www.gleblanc.com/instruments/query.cfm?model=7166 and 7168 http://www.gleblanc.com/instruments/query.cfm?model=7168, the Noblet 60 http://www.gleblanc.com/instruments/query.cfm?model=60 and Leblanc 160S http://www.gleblanc.com/instruments/query.cfm?model=160S, 325S http://www.gleblanc.com/instruments/query.cfm?model=325S, 330S http://www.gleblanc.com/instruments/query.cfm?model=330S and 400 http://www.gleblanc.com/instruments/query.cfm?model=400 are double.
The 425S http://www.gleblanc.com/instruments/query.cfm?model=425S and 430S http://www.gleblanc.com/instruments/query.cfm?model=430S are triple.
The Selmer (USA) plastic 1430P http://www.selmer.com/woodwind/usacl/1430p.html appears to be double. The register vent is on a metal stub pipe at the top of the body, which is higher than usual for a double design, but lower than usual for triple. The clinching factor for double is that there’s no rod assembly from the right ring finger mechanism to the register mechanism. This is clearly visible when you go to the enlarged picture at http://www.selmer.com/woodwind/usacl/images/1430P_large.jpg.
The Selmer (Paris) 35 and 37 http://www.selmer.com/woodwind/pariscl/alto_bass.html are triple.
The plastic Yamaha YCL-21 is double http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail/0,6373,CNTID%253D2403%2526CTID%253D239400,00.html.
The granadilla YCL-621 http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail/0,6373,CNTID%253D581%2526CTID%253D239400%2526CNTYP%253DPRODUCT,00.html and YCL-622 http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail/0,6373,CNTID%253D582%2526CTID%253D239400%2526CNTYP%253DPRODUCT,00.html are triple.
After looking at the enlarged pictures of all the above models, I think the Ridenour BC 147 http://www.brookmays.com/prod_disp.asp?itemnum=BC147 is a stencil of the Selmer (USA) 1430P. The other possibility is the Leblanc 400, but that has a wood body. Also, since Tom has broken with Leblanc and has endorsed the Selmer Signature, he would probably turn to Selmer for his source.
I’m not sure about the "Ridenite" body. Tom has used flowery language in his promotional material, for both Leblanc and Selmer, and continues to do so in the material for his own instruments. The claim of a "newly developed" material could be simply the standard Bundy Resonite material, perhaps with a matte finish applied.
What is certainly possible, though, is that Tom has made acoustical improvements, such as undercutting the tone holes or slightly rounding the intersections between the tone holes and the bore.
The only true test will be how the instrument plays.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-06-02 16:07
In other words, the magic Ridenour bass is a warmed-over Bundy? Woo-hoo.
Might as well buy a Charles Bay bass (a modified Vito).
I'm disappointed.
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2004-06-02 17:12
As it turns out the Ridenour bass is not quite what I had in mind when I saw the words "double register key mechanism". I'm disappointed too.
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2004-06-02 17:30
If I say that it is still not clear, am I going to get fired?
It's still not clear.
Graham said above:
"I think the confusion could arise in relation to the "3rd" hole. There is a separate side key for the B flat (prefered when convenient to reach), but only two holes are governed by the single register/speaker key. The lower of these two holes provides the inferior but more convenient B flat, and overblows the clarion notes B to E flat. For E and above ,the upper hole automatically replaces the dual purpose lower hole using the mechanism described by Dave."
Yes, this clearly describes the SML in my hand and my memory of Paris Selmers.
Ken says above:
"The "triple" mechanism always has a register vent on the metal neck, a second register vent located 1" or 2" below the top of the body, and a Bb vent located AS ON THE DOUBLE MECHANISM. It also has a rod assembly connecting the right ring finger and register mechanisms, and, on instruments with a 2-piece body, a bridge key. "
The capitalization is mine. This is different from what Graham said. So, Ken, there are horns that have three vents controlled by the automatic system??? Is that what you meant to say? (Nevermind the side trill key Bb that Graham reminds us of.)
Sorry, I don't want to beat a dead horse. I belabor this because it seems that a three hole 'pro' system ('pro' as defined by Dave S.) would be superior to a two hole 'pro' system, but I'm still not sure that's what some of you mean. If there are two different 'pro' systems in common use, that means the manufacturers are even more vague when they say 'double register key mechanism."
Wayne Thompson
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Author: FrankM
Date: 2004-06-02 18:17
I believe some are calling the throat Bb a "register key"....interesting discussion regardless!
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-06-02 21:43
To throw a bit more gasoline on this raging fire, as I understand our terminology, a vent is ONLY a small hole to cause a register shift by breaking-up the waveeform in the bore. The Bb hole/pad is a TONEHOLE, since thats where the note sounds out by being the bore's terminal, a greatly different function, IMHO. Hope that may help, W T. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2004-06-03 02:52
Thanks, Don.
Everytime I ever said 'vent', I meant a hole, period: register or tonehole. I think it is better to just talk about general holes, though, since this one you mention serves both to shift register and to sound the Bb, so it is not clear if it should be called a vent or tonehole.
I really enjoy getting info from the web in general and this board and List in particular. It is difficult to communicate clearly, though, sometimes, isn't it? Hey, if I remember, tomorrow night at our band's dress rehearsal, I'll study the fairly new Selmer we have there, I'll take the serial number, and I'll even take photographs. I'll get it clear! lol And I'll share it with all of you. Thanks, all.
Wayne
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Author: graham
Date: 2004-06-03 08:05
Well, I haven't seen the mechanism that Ken describes, though it would be perfectly possible, by applying the same set up that Patricola does on its regular clarinets, (or is present on altos for that matter), so a dedicated B flat tonehole opens when the A key is pressed. That could be combined with the standard double register mechanism. As I say, I ave not seen one (I don't think the latest Buffet has one for example), and I can understand why, as I imagine keeping them in adjustment would be tricky.
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2004-06-04 07:07
The Selmer used in my Band, the California State Bakersfield Community Band is SN A72XX, made about 1978. The register key controls two holes, one on the neck, and one about 1 or 2 inches from the top of the upper joint. The lower one is used for the Bb and for the long B, C, and D. In other words this is the common so-called 'double register key', pretty similar to my SML. Since this is not real new, it doesn't give me an example of the 'triple mechanism' some of you have mentioned. (I forgot to take pictures...If anyone cares I could easily post photos of the SML.)
To return to the original topic, the nomenclature in advertisements could be better. Notice that the Buffet pages talk about the 1180 having a 'double octave vent on the body with a high Bb key'..... ??? and the 1183 and 93 have a double octave vent? An 'octave' vent? On a clarinet?
I'm done for a while on this topic. I need to practice so that I can play ANY bass clarinet tolerably.
WT
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Author: DezzaG
Date: 2004-06-04 11:53
There is no Triple, what you describe Wayne is what we call the automatic double register key (as found on My Buffet Bass [low C] and others).
I don't want to see any more mention of triple register keys, they don't exist...yet!!!
I think we need a better way of describinh these 2 sorts of register keys.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-06-04 14:17
They don't exist is probably accurate, but there have been attempts at the same thing on other instruments.
The Selmer soprano of about twenty years ago had an additional vent up on the barrel for capturing the altissimo range more accurately. I've never seen a fingering chart for same, but I believe that the "action" was automatic and was driven by the "half hole" rolling of the first finger left hand.
In effect, the half hole (or first finger vent opening on the harmony instruments) is another "register key", albeit one without any real mechanism.
I've spent time on manual register key bass clarinets, "LeBlanc" system bass clarinets (with the Ridenour "system" plus the horrid forked Eb on the lower joint) and double register vent bass clarinets (with a hole on the neck and one on the body, all linked to the lower joint by a long tracking rod). I think that the "LeBlanc" system was primarily intended to replace the "less robust" double register vent system, the better to avoid the maintenance problems associated with that long and exposed rod on the back of the instrument.
If I had my druthers, I'd opt for a double register key system. It wasn't that hard to operate (in my opinion, of course), and there were never any adjustment problems (no long rod to bash, no bridge key to get bent, and no rocker to keep in adjustment). It also allowed some clever fingerings in the altissimo register that aren't there on the modern horns.
But, the automatic system is here to stay, so my vote now goes to the "non-LeBlanc" system. The lack of a linkage means that you have a basic Bb hole (for the throat Bb), and an "averaged" vent for everything else...not a good compromise.
The down side of the "non-Leblanc" system is that you have to watch adjustment like a hawk. Neck at exactly the right angle on the body, "rocker" mechanism has to be clean and free to operate, no bending in the bridge for the lower joint rod. Anything gets just a hair off and you start to experience what I call "fluting", where the register hole on the body starts to sound an additional partial in addition to what comes out of the proper tone hole. With adults, this can be monitored and corrected...not so with the typical music student using a shared horn.
(Another factor to consider here is how the horn is carried and stored. My Selmer Model 33 is handled very carefully,. but it unfortunately lives in a very old case, one so old that I cannot buy a new one from the manufacturer. (The ones that they send are for the newer horn, which has changed body dimensions.) I found about ten years ago that I was having troubles with keeping the register keys functioning correctly, and the cause was traced to the way that the old and broken down case was allowing the upper joint to be "thrown" around in its seat, thereby bending the bridge key slightly. A little extra padding and all was well, but it's not the sort of thing that leaps out and tells you what is happening. One of these days I'm going to spring for a new custom case, but for now the old one has to serve.)
Saxophones have a similar multiple vent arrangement, and one version of same (on the Yamaha horn) has three or four "vents" that are opened in a very clever progression. One of the "vents" (on the baritone) actually has two vent holes about an inch apart, the first of which opens when a finger on the right hand "holes" is lifted. That key has a very small flat spring that causes the second vent hole to open a fraction of a second (less than a tenth by stopwatch) later, thereby "progressively" opening the total vent area for that section of the upper register. Very interesting to watch it function (it's right under your nose on the baritone and hard to miss), and (judging from one time when it was "adjusted" incorrectly by a less skilled repair dude) VERY critical to rapid sounding of that area of the horn when jumping up from the lower octave.
And then there's oboes with their TRIPLE register key arrangements...or we could discuss making the register shifts on a bassoon...
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2004-06-04 14:34
Terry -
The Selmer clarinet you mention had the "Marca" mechanism, which was a second register key, opening a vent on the barrel, that made it possible to play the altissimo register with fingerings mirroring the lower registers. That is, you could play all the way down to the equivalent of chalumeau E/clarion B, sounding Ab. It was not an "automatic" mechanism -- you had to press the extra key with your left thumb. I tried the instrument at the Clarinet Congress in London about 25 years ago and picked up a fingering chart, which is exactly the same as a regular chart, with extra fingerings for the Marca mechanism. Frankly, the instrument didn't play very well.
For more, see http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=49799&t=49799.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-06-04 15:43
Well done, Ken, could this be the Joseph Marchi, Sete, Fr, US Patent 3,844,193, [1974], Fr Priority 1972? Its the only barrel reg. vent, I've ever seen . There are 3 US pats cited as references, and a Norway !! A light-flash power failure [da--] [another storm?], interrupted my attempt to respond to Terry, Dezza, Wayne re: terminology. Have located more R K pats and have thots along that line, will post later. How might we solve this problem, which we seem to have "generated", Al Rice ?? Is there some accepted description we could use? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-06-04 19:52
Part of the terminology problem is due to the way that the various mechanisms developed over the years. Ideally, we should have a term for each device that would isolate it in the minds of all. However, most do not have access to the patent drawings, the actual implementations sometimes differ from the patent drawings, and many have never even seen some of the devices depicted by the patent drawings, much less used them.
(This is my pet peeve about the articulated G# mechanism. I've used it for over thirty years, and have never had a problem with same, but you see all sorts of folks who talk it down, but who when questioned admit that they've never used one. With so few around, it is hard to get in the experience, but until it's there perhaps one should avoid forming an opinion on same...)
As I said before, I really like the old, two touchpiece, two vent arrangement (which I used on old Buffet Albert "system" horns for many years). But, I also know that most here will never see a two register key bass clarinet, much less have any playing experience on same. And, Buffet apparently didn't deem it necessary to set up a comparison collection so that these wonderful (if somewhat funky feeling) horns can be placed in everyone's hands. Ditto A bass clarinets, six key clarinets, and so forth.
he collection up in South Dakota would be a nice reference, but it's in South Dakota for starters, and even it is not complete. And, even for what's there, there would be a (very understandable) reluctance to allow every Tom, Dick and Harry to come in and start noodling around on what may be a one of a kind item.
With an eye to some form of standardization, I'm sure that they (i.e., the manufacturers) have had a "name" for what they most likely patented or licensed. But, tracking it down at this remove is more trouble than I want to go.
From a purely pictorial standpoint, the PTO here in the US has many modern patents listed in the online database (including my 4,796,507 for a woodwind mouthpiece ligature; check it out when you have the time), but most of the older ones are still not included. Researching them manually is a pain in the ass (voice of experience here) unless you've got the depository library in your own backyard.
And, term wise it would be nice to get these all pinned down to some set formularly, but there still remains the dissemination problem (i.e., getting it out to all so that there is a visual representation (photo or diagram) and a standard term for each). Until that succeeds, it's going to be hard to come to a "common understanding" on what's being discussed.
Hence my use of the "LeBlanc" term for the single key, two holes on body of horn version. Even though I've seen something very similar on the various Selmer student horns, LeBlanc seemed to be wedded to this (less capable but far, far sturdier) system for virtually all of its harmony instruments up until quite recently. As they seemed to be the 'champion' of the "system", I always discuss that particular arrangement with a reference to the most common user of same.
However, while the holes were in roughly the same place, and the keywork about the same, the mechanism that activated this "LeBlanc" type register mechanism had some differences between Selmer, LeBlanc and one Yamaha horn that I saw it with back in the Eighties. All when played seemed to have the same characteristics, same "jump" when going over the break, and relatively the same voicing of the mid-staff Bb.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-06-04 21:42
Last year I converted a Robert Malerne bass clarinet (with a single-register-vent system, basically the "Leblanc" system referred to by Terry) to a manual double-vent/double-key system. It certainly improved the intonation and resistance of the 'long' clarion B and C, but the ergonomics of my homemade extra register key were a bit awkward. I suspect with some time and a better-designed second register key I could have gotten comfortable with the arrangement (I sold the horn before reaching that stage).
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-06-04 21:59
GBK - A new thread perhaps ? Hi Terry - Its a real pleasure to discuss patents [by EM's also?] and the mechanics of this "small portion of the cl world" , with knowledgable players. I had not seen your pat [now have copy] on my previous searches re: ligatures, prob. due to [inadequate] search word combinations. Well written, your inventor's contributions are evident ! I also have a Selmer 33 [fine horn], an old Conn with similar DRKeying, have had LeBlancs [bass and alto], gave a 1930's Conn alto to USD, it had the 2 individual R K keys ! , old Pedler alto and bass with diff, mechanics for DRK. I have seen/worked on Vito, Bundy and other SRK basses. In my modest experience, similar to that of Dave S, I guess, I've seen very few SRK models that "played well" . Re: terminology, a study of our "good books" with clarinet in the title, and advice from US, FR, DE, JP, IT, et al experts MIGHT give us an acceptable, concise description, for which we are looking ! Re: [US] patents, Yamaha 4,922,792 [along with other Bass cl developments], older LeBlancs [some referenced as prior art], Stubbins, Mazzeo, et many al have tussled with these problems. Thereby, access to a PDL or similar [well-equipped] public library, will be helpful in searching this unique, technical information source. "Nuff for now. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2004-06-05 03:24
One innovation that I wondered why never caught on was the use of the properly located and sized #3 side trill key to voice the Bb. Even on the best set up bass clarinet, the normal "bottom register vent plus A key" sounds "different", and on many horns it's as doggy as they come.
Mazzeo's "system" (in this case, an accurate use of the word) allowed for this opening to be used for the Bb, but he was hobbled by the changes of the various throat fingerings and it never "caught on". I've never played a Mazzeo bass clarinet (and I don't know that they have ever existed in the first place), but on a soprano Mazzeo the Bb is a gem.
More's the pity, for the Bb played that way (on my horns, at least, using the #3 trill key in place of the register) is as sweet and even as can be. Other than the somewhat awkward fingering that displaces the right hand so much that it is hard to make a smooth transition over the break), there's no flaw there at all.
How about this? A "double register key" setup, with one of the touch pieces operating the "true" Bb fingering, and the second operating a "traditional" double register key with the linkage to the lower joint. That way you could roll to the left for the Bb, then down and to the right for the notes over the break (opening the lower of the two register vents in the process), and then on up through the trigger point to open the second register vent. The opposite would work as well on the way down.
As far as I can see, this deals with all of the problems without adding any inordinate complications. I never had any trouble with the manual double register keys, so it would work well enough from a fingering standpoint. No significant extra complexity, since it's just a matter of an axle set up to lift the #3 trill key for the Bb. And, it retains the "normal" venting for the register key fingering. In fact, you wouldn't even have to use whenever you didn't want to.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2004-06-05 08:36
The acoustics of the bass clarinet are a factor. The size of the bore and the amount of undercutting of the very low notes to provide good 12ths could enter into the tradeoff of which mechanism to use. The labor costs of undercutting the large holes on a bass may be part of the tradeoff. It also may be desireable to not make the diameter of the bass tube too large, which could improve the 12ths, because of weight and availablilty of wood, etc.
I have a H. Lefebre bass from the 50s which has a double vent system with one thumb key but no third vent for the bottom end of the tube. It is very deeply undercut in the low end in order to provide good 12ths. Adjustment is generally not anything to worry about as it is on some of the more recent three vent models. It has some advantages.
An alternate low Ab/Eb key can sometimes be added without a lot of cost. The slur from low Eb to low Ab occurs in a lot of music.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2004-06-05 15:17
Fine discussion, Terry, Wes, et al, yes, the addition of [as many as possible] of the [soprano] "Full Boehm" features [3 of the 4], as on our Selmer 33's , does simplify some fingerings. I frequently use the "low Eb" to produce the mid-staff Bb, its tonal character is very similar to the other lower clarion notes. IMHO. Re: the Mazzeo improvements [?], my only experience is with the Bundy model [I presume you know of his 4-5 patents, and Brymer's discussion of pros/cons] , I dont greatly like his [Selmer's] use of the left L F ring. It is carried further by McIntyre, complex fingering CHANGES required !These and other ?good? "systems" have been tried, but lost out in the marketplace, conclusion, we love simplicity, low cost , and resist change ! This is my 'nuff for now. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2004-06-07 14:45
Wes,
Undercutting can only do so much. I've overhauled and modified literally a couple of dozen single-register-vent bass clarinets, including Robert Malernes and all their stemcils (Conn, Olds, King, Linton, Lyon & Healy, Evette-Schaeffer, etc. etc.), Noblets, Leblancs. a few Bundys, and some odds and ends --- I've done moderate tonehole undercutting and radiussing on every one of these --- all were improved to some extent, but hardly any of these ultimately played as well as a decent double-register vent instrument. FYI.
By the way, the labor cost to undercut is not that huge --- I don't understand why some manufacturers don't do it.
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The Clarinet Pages
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