 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ben tupelo
Date: 2003-11-24 00:37
Hi all!
I am trying to switch to tip-to-tip tonguing from anchor tonguing.
I went to conservatory and majored in clarinet performance, and nobody ever noticed that I was anchor-tonguing.....and I of course ignored every mention of the tip of my tongue....but I digress...
When trying to use the tip of my tongue, the back side of the reed gets totally covered in spit! A river forms and my tone becomes a gargling mess. Nevermind "high" notes like C above the staff or other problems of switching...this spitty reed is driving me nuts!
Any suggestions??
Thanks,
Ben
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Author: Ed
Date: 2003-11-24 01:29
Many years back, I used anchor tonguing until someone detected it. It took quite a few months until I was able to comfortably make the change. I have always found that for me it works best to have the tip of the tongue slightly below the very tip of the reed, so that there is a slight overlap. I also find that keeping my head up and clarinet down to avoid blowing straight down into the mpce avoids the water build up. Good luck.
Post Edited (2003-11-24 22:34)
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Author: jo.clarinet
Date: 2003-11-24 11:45
I've found an interesting and relevant thread on 'tonguing confusion', dated 22nd Jan 2003, which might be helpful - though I don't think it covers the 'spit' problem as such, it might be that you're trying to tongue in the actual gap between the reed and the mpc rather than on the reed. Have a look at the thread!
Joanna Brown
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-11-24 12:53
I've a similar problem in playing the larger reed of the Baritone saxophone.
My sax instructor has suggested using the underside of the tongue to release the reed. Additional salivation will subside in a few weeks of training, you're stimulating the same portion of the mouth that is used in chewing...
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Author: Ed
Date: 2003-11-24 16:00
"You must have a teacher who know's what he or she is doing. That's too bad about what happened in undergraduate school (how someone could fail to notice this basic technical problem for four years boggles my mind)!"
Unfortunately, tongue problems can often be difficult to diagnose, as it is all internal. I have heard some top players who use anchor tonguing and do it extremely well, and you would never know. It is something that is not widely accepted, but there are advocates of it.
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Author: vin
Date: 2003-11-24 16:13
I did not use my tongue at all (a big problem) and managed to get into a top conservatory. Once there, my teacher had me practice some simple tonguing exercises involving tip-to-tip and 2 Rose etudes a week. Many people said that I was terrible because of the spitty sound. After 4 months of hard work (at least an hour and a half (spread out over the day) on JUST tonguing), perseverence, listening, feeling, I could tongue better than all of my classmates. Read as much as you can about the subject, work on it a little bit in each lesson, play for/talk to a classmate you admire about tonguing, PRACTICE your ass off. If you set your standards high and work, you WILL get through this.
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Author: graham
Date: 2003-11-24 17:11
Ben
You have not given any indication of what has caused you to wish to change at this stage in your career. Is it a tendency to get too fatigued, lack of sufficient speed in articulation, lack of clarity of attack, knock on effects on your tone or projection? If the conservatory you went to was any good, someone should have spotted this even if they did not recognise the reason for the deficiency. If you have no specific problems you can put your finger on then I do not see why you are changing. The only other point that comes to mind is that it might be more difficult to teach it the more conventional way if you don't actually practice what you teach.
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2003-11-24 19:21
Graham raises some interesting questions. It can be difficult to sense what is going on with a players' tounguing from the outside. However, I have observed in some of my students excess tounge motion farther back towards the throat if they do not use tip-to-tip tonguing. This does affect tonguing speed, and it also affects the sound of the attack. One hears either more of an unclear "th" sound or more of a throaty "k" type of attack. Sometimes one wants these kinds of attacks as an effect, but it's not what I want to hear when someone is playing Mozart or even a good staccato study.
Good Luck, Ben
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Author: msloss
Date: 2003-11-24 21:03
SWK makes excellent points here. Having studied with some of the monsters of articulation myself (Brody, Dagon, Ambler, Gigliotti) the so-called orthodox method in my own experience, once mastered, opens up realms of new possibilities in playing. That's probably the single biggest argument in favor of pursuing the tip-to-tip technique. It is difficult to get there late in one's career, but getting that technical restriction out of the way makes the Mendelssohn Scherzo and every other clarinet staple that calls for light, quick and precise tongue that much more effortless as you get past the mechanics and pursue the music within.
To your original question, I've found with my own students that the slurpies go away as the technique is mastered. I don't understand the mechanics of saliva production myself, but for whatever reason, practice seems to get them past the problem. Maybe get one of those suction devices dentists use? I'm sure nobody would notice the motor and sucking sound sound over the saxophones anyway. ;-)
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Author: fmadison
Date: 2003-11-24 22:28
Hi,
Boy oh boy this brings back many memories....
I have a friend who went to a master class given by Andres Segovia. In the Guitar class there was a teacher with a Doctorate degree in Guitar performance.
Segovia looked him over once and took him aside to a corner and forced him to play Mary had a little Lamb over and over for the entire master class. Meanwhile Segovia continued teaching others.
This is a true story....
The reason for this was Segovia noticed that the teacher never learned to correctly use his fingers to strum the Guitar.
Anyway learning to use stop tonguing correctly with the tip of tongue to the near tip of reed took me months to learn.
Not only do you have to reprogram your nervous system to learn how to tongue in a new way, but your daily playing also deprograms everything you are trying to learn.
It is like two steps forward and one step back in making progress. Our nervous system is designed to learn new motor skills but that same ability is the one that works to slow down the process of learning a new motor skill.
I would get my articulation going just fine after 2 hours of practice and then the next day mess it all up during rehersal or a concert.
It is really a royal pain to integrate a new tonguing method. The longer you have been using one method over the years the harder it will be for you to learn a new method. Kinda like an old dog learning new tricks....
Good Luck.
-Frank
It's the wood that makes it good!
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Author: Ed
Date: 2003-11-24 22:38
For anyone interested- Peter Hadcock has a great chapter in his book "The Working Clarinetist". He discusses articulation and the use of anchor tonguing at pretty good length.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-11-25 00:36
As far as I know the "problem" with anchor tonguing is only discussed in the US and never anywhere else. And there it seems to be a very big problem if you do it. Is this a cultural difference. What do other Europeans have to add to this discussion?
I know I'm doing something similar to what you call anchor tonguing from what I read but I've never had any problems with speed, clarity or sound and I do have a job in a major symphony orchestra in Europe.
Are American clarinetists locked into only one way of tonguing?
From what I've learned and practised all my career is that I choose a way of tonguing that sounds the way I want to at a given moment. I like that kind of flexibility just as there are many different ways of bowing for a string player.
Any Europeans out there who have opinions on this for I've never understood the discussion? I don't even know a word for it in any other language.
Besides Michell Lurie, Karl Leister is usually accused of anchor tonguing.
Alphie
Post Edited (2003-11-25 07:44)
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Author: Burt
Date: 2003-11-25 01:05
Ben, I appreciate your problem. I'm trying to do the same thing. My teachers, including one who was (and still is) in a major symphony orchesta, did not catch it. Maybe anchor tonguing was the natural way after playing a brass instrument. I found out that I was doing something "different" when warming up VERY softly in a hallway, that I could tongue crisply by putting my tongue at the very tip of the reed.
When I asked a visiting professor about it, his first comment was "Why do you want to change?".
Going from there to getting tip tonguing to sound good has been a 3-year effort, and I'm not there yet. It's hard getting the tongue back so far. Tip tonguing (for me) is faster and crisper, but blocks the sound for a longer time, creates an embochure problem in the clarion and altissimo, and causes fatigue much faster than anchor tonguing. So my goal is to use it where it's really important, and anchor-tongue the rest of the time.
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