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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-06-02 15:02
Ralph -
The answers to your questions are Yes and Yes.
The original Philharmonic Hall had dreadful acoustics. There were a few good seats, which I discovered by moving around a lot. Strangely, the best, which were very good, were at the extreme end of the balcony, which curved around almost above the stage.
The hall was gutted and rebuilt as Avery Fisher Hall. The acoustics are now improved, and even bearable -- but still not great.
Carnegie Hall, on the other hand, as superb acoustics. There are some merely good spots -- the mezzanine, the main floor under the mezzanine, the top balcony -- but even there, you can hear everything that goes on, and from the best seats it's as good as it gets in this world.
The story came out only today, and I'm sure there will be lots of maneuvering and arm-twisting before it's over, but I think it's great news for the NY Philharmonic. IMHO, it's not a top orchestra these days, and IMHO it's made worse by where they play. A move back to Carnehie can only help.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-06-02 15:47
Our orchestra plays in many different halls all season long.
Any orchestra that plays in different acoustics as much as we do begins to find that dull or lifeless acoustics really detract from the "bloom" or beauty of sound that gives the players and audiences so much pleasure.
The NY PHil has been dealing with this situation for too long. If Carnegie is better than this can really add a great deal to the tone and sound of an orchestra.
A number of great orchestras world over sound so good because they have great concert halls to work in.
For example; The concertgebouw and the acoustics of this hall add beauty to the sound of any group. The Concertgebouw orchestra derives its great tone partly from the ambient sound of its grand acoustic.
The Vienna Phil is blessed with the Solfiensall and a number of other excellent halls to work in...
The Berlin Phil has the Philharmonie which gives this orchestra a more open sound than the smaller European halls.....
The Barbican has great sound and the groups in London sound great there.
The Salle Pleyel in Paris has wonderful sound.
The Boston Symphony hall has very fine acoustics and really is part of the Boston Symphony characteristic sound.
Bravo NY!!
David Dow
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2003-06-02 15:51
Why isn't the NY Phil such a top-notch orchestra now? I can't imagine them not having their pick of talent. Is Maazel such a traditionalist that they're getting boring?
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2003-06-02 16:05
[oops -- deleted]
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
Post Edited (2003-06-02 16:06)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-06-02 16:09
NY PHIL is an amazing orchestra....now we will hear them in a place that will add to their already prodigious talent.
David Dow
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Author: cyso_clarinetist
Date: 2003-06-02 17:03
I love carnagie hall, playing in there is like nothing else. I am sure this is one of the best decisions that the phil has made in years.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-06-02 18:11
Ralph -
Note that I prefaced my evaluation of the NY Phil. with IMHO (In My Humble Opinion]. I've heard the Philharmonic live many times over the years. While most of the players are excellent, and many of them are superb, their performances as an ensemble are, for me, nowhere close to, say, the Cleveland Orchestra, which I heard play live under Szell many times.
This is partly due to the impossible acoustics at the former Philharmonic Hall, where they had to blast to hear themselves at all, but Fisher is better, and they still play in a rock-em-sock-em style that (once again, and always for me) leaves little room for subtlety. The Philadelphia Orchestra plays in a notoriously dead hall, and they seem to be able to do it both ways.
The problems are made worse by the Philharmonic's combative tradition of challenging conductors to whip them into shape, and then defeating all comers. While Mazur did some excellent orchestra-building, the orchestra had a long way to come, and still has a long way to go.
I think the worst problem is the Philharmonic's tradition of playing WAY behind the conductor's beat. Cleveland, by contrast, played exactly with Szell, and their ensemble precision (which I think has never been matched) puts NY to shame.
NY has too many "old men in the back of the [name your string section] playing on 2 inches of bow" who, frankly, should have been pensioned off years ago. There are even principals who are no longer at their peak. Horn players say they never go through a concert without bobbling a note, but at this level, there just shouldn't be all those clams.
New York is a fine orchestra, but, IMHO, not in the same leage as the great ones. Frankly, I'd rather listen to Detroit, St. Louis or Cincinnati.
In Carnegie Hall, they were the best orchestra in the world under Toscanini and did great things under Bernstein. Their return should be a great event, so that once again New York can boast a world-class orchestra.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-06-02 19:04
For the past decade, the best orchestra in NY has been the Met opera orchestra. They continually play with sensitivity, flexibility and incredible warmth ...GBK
Post Edited (2003-06-02 21:21)
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2003-06-02 19:10
Ken,
Thanks for the input. Kinda goes nicely with the Trib article you posted about the CSO.
It's beyond me why an orchestra wouldn't want to play precisely on the conductor's beat (or wouldn't want a conductor to offer such Szellian precision), but I'm just some rube with a horn.
--Ralph (who also reveres Szell and Cleveland)w
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-06-03 00:58
GBK - I couldn't agree more (though I love the NY Phil too). We've just had 12 wonderful operas courtesy of the Texaco Broadcasts folk and the Met ... boy, that orchestra is surely an inspiration.
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Author: vin
Date: 2003-06-03 02:53
I generally do not like several things about the New York Phil, however, I heard them last night. I had heard Shostakovich 5 under Masur, once in New York and once in Boston. While I did not like Maazel's interpretation as much as Masur, I thought the orchestra played better last night than I'd ever heard them before. It was far from a pedestrian performance, they actually seemed to be enjoying themselves. From a clarinet perspective, Mark Nuccio sounded truly amazing on the Eb clarinet. Very musical. It will be exciting for the Phil, but I can't imagine being as excited to go see Berlin, Vienna, Chicago in Avery Fischer (what a barn!)
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Author: HAT
Date: 2003-06-03 13:49
Just a small reminder:
Something that is extremely difficult to do:
Play in a major symphony orchestra
Something that is so easy anyone can do it:
Criticize a major symphony orchestra or someone who plays in one.
Let me add this as well:
Something that makes no sense to do:
Compare a modern major symphony to one from 40 years ago. . .particularly without understanding all of the changes made in the meantime.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-06-03 15:01
HAT -
A cat can look at a king. I play nowhere near well enough to be in a major symphony, but I can certainly tell when a group is playing well and when it's not. I was at many Szell/Cleveland concerts 40 years ago, and I have their recordings to remind me of what they sounded like. You do, too.
I agree that the standards of orchestral virtuosity have gone up. I also agree that playing styles are different today, and I think it's mostly due to the fact that today's players have grown up surrounded by rock. To my ears, there's a big change in playing styles that occurred around 40-50 years ago, "after Elvis." Records from the 78 rpm era were made by players who never heard that heavy beat, and the difference is obvious.
The 1960s Cleveland Orchestra was transitional, with an internal prominence of rhythm that you don't hear in the Rodzinsky/Cleveland recordings, or those from that era by Philadelphia, Royal Philharmonic, Berlin, the Concertgebouw, etc. The Toscanini/NBC recordings from the 40s and early 50s have wonderful rhythm, but they don't have that steel backbone.
Technically, the Emerson Quartet plays rings around the Busch or the Griller, but I prefer the earlier style.
Musical style changes constantly. Mengelberg and Weingartner recorded with orchestras that hadn't cut their teeth on The Rite of Spring, and are even more plastic -- but I grew up listening to the Rite, so I expect, and respond to, a later style.
Finally, even in terms of contemporary orchestral playing, it's my opinion that the New York Philharmonic is not particularly satisfying to listen to. There's incredible virtuosity, but also incredible sloppiness -- better than it was, but not yet at the top. Berlin and Vienna -- and Detroit and Cincinnati, too -- are simply better ensembles.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-06-03 17:40
Inreresting discussion above;
Adding comments may be teacherous but here it goes...
Cleveland plays very well but certainly without the individuality of sound it once had. I think the Cleveland brass is wonderful....the winds at times a bit without character or bite....however, very fine.
NY winds are very individualistic down to the point each principal is a monster player in terms of individual style. Quite a contrast.
There are pluses and minuses with both symstems of thinking....
NY is a bit scrappy but may at time overwhelm the player with taste and phrasing...sometime overwhelm with vulgarity
Cleveland is sometimes a bit too polished and civilized!!! Smoothing out the edge in recent Bruckner recording in alot of stuff....I was quite dissapointed in their concept of some of the Bruckner under Dohnayi....
Cleveland may at the moment be the finest esemble in the world...but they certainly have off days too....
NY generally has a tradition of being a bit different in its musical attitude....
they sort of play it rough so to speak and take risks in places.
NY has a heck of a principal horn!!!
To me add; the conductor and the day and the moment and either group can do things neither can do......Maazel may not suit the needs of this group so well...What Most does in Cleveland to change direction musically is anyones guess....Conductors certainly can change and alter the way an orchestra can sound!
Sometimes this talk of equipment makes one realize how amazing the pliable nature of music is!! Cleveland under Karajan certainly sounds quite different from Szell....my recording of it is inspirining....
I also prefer Drucker way over Cohen....Cohen is beutiful but beautiful always......Combs is far more insprired too!!!
David Dow
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-06-03 21:39
David -
Of course you're right. I haven't heard Cleveland live recently. I was talking about the orchestra under Szell in the 1960s and 70s, which, for me, has never been equalled.
Phil Meyers in New York has been the finest horn player in the world. For me, though, there are far too many missed entrances and cracked notes than are acceptable in a major orchestra. His health may be the problem. (He weighs well over 400 lb. and needs an entire riser for himself.)
Drucker is the quintessential NY Philharmonic player -- he has infinite technique, can overpower the trombone section and has the personality to fill Fisher Hall, even in its deadest spots. Cohen never makes a mistake, but I don't hear much individuality. What do you think of Ted Oien in Detroit? I think he makes great music all the time.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2003-06-03 21:49
I ran into an interesting series on the CNN web site called "Players: Career Musicians of the New York Philharmonic." Here's the one on Philip Myers. Links to the other articles in the series are in a table about halfway down. No Drucker, though.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/CAREER/trends/03/15/nyphil.horn/
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
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Author: RM
Date: 2003-06-04 02:41
To follow up on Hats comment, Ted Johnson told me once that playing in the Cleveland Orchestra was the easiet thing he ever had to do. People played well in tune and listened to each other, his piece of the puzzle was well outlined for him. He said he felt sorry for giggers and people that play in smaller, less experienced orchestras, what a headache, things are not as alligned.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-06-04 12:32
Dear Ken:
Ted Oien is a superb player with a tremendous tone and very individual. I also think in some ways the Detroit Symphony is better than both orchestras we are currently talking about. They made a pile of nice records under Dorati in the 80s I would not part with. These are on Decca London....
Sadly conductors like Szell and Walter are not as in abundance. ....to think in the 60s one could hear Reiner, Ormandy, Walter, Bernstein, Paray, Dorati, Leinsdorf on a podium in in just about every large american centre
Phil Meyers worked up here in Halifax with the old Atlantic Symphonyin the late 70s....
David Dow
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Author: Ron Jr.
Date: 2003-06-04 14:25
The one disadvantage of the move is that all the other wonderful touring orchestras may not continue playing at Carnegie Hall. Where will they go...to the new Zankel Hall?
Cheers,
Ron Jr.
Post Edited (2006-03-06 16:55)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-06-04 15:19
I stand corrected....
Certainly the player on the Detroit older records I have is pretty hot....
As for the new scene I think that alot of orchestras really suffer today from lack of a permanent director....music and politics seem to intermingle in such a way as to prevent Karajans and Leinsdorf from working in music.
I also know that conductors like Dutiot are pretty nasty, and in recent history Montreal suffered a great deal from his inate inability to get along with the players in the band,....
as for the future I think NY phil will only sound better...
the Mahler 5 of them under Bernstein is still one of the great lps of all time...
I will have to check the CD stores for recent CDs of the Detroit group...
they have a good one in Jaarvi...
David Dow
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-06-04 16:08
I have a number of 1950s Mercury recordings of the Detroit Symphony under Dorati. A special favorite is the Mendelssohn 5th ("Revormation"), which also has one of the most beautiful covers ever made -- a forest scene with the deepest, most soothing green imaginable. It's there on the CD reissue, but the full-size LP cover is stunning. The performance is the best I've heard. They really put over a piece that's often underrated.
A bassoonist friend says Charles Sirard was legendary. Listen for the great bassooning. I'm not sure who the principal clarinetist was. Maybe GBK will take on the assignment ;-)
Bruno Walter made a great set of the Beethoven symphonies with the NY Philharmonic, I think in the late 1940s. My parents had the 8th, in a performance I grew up on and have always loved. I found an LP reissue of the set in a cutout bin for $5. Bellison was the principal then. He was the ideal orchestral player, with a big sound and spot-on intonation. Walter didn't do the Pastorale, for some reason, so that one has him conducting Philadelphia, with McLane in great form on the solos.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-06-04 16:18
Ken said: "...I'm not sure who the principal clarinetist was. Maybe GBK will take on the assignment..."
The Detroit Symphony clarinet section at that time was:
Paul Schaller - Principal clarinet
William J. Griss - 2nd clarinet
Oliver Green - Bass clarinet .
...GBK
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Author: cyso_clarinetist
Date: 2003-06-04 17:53
I really love post like these, that bring such throught and capacity into it. Perhaps I am really partial because I grown up with orchestra's like the Berlin Philharmonic and the Chicago Symphony Orchestra ringing in my ears but I feel that the NY Philharmonic doesn't compare to these ensembles right now. MAINLY becuase the orchestra is so old in terms of the age of players. Gosh.. I am going to get killed for it but I will say it. There are so many amazing musicians out there, If the NY Phil was cleared of all it's older non productive members and replaced with the amazing young talent that is out there the orchestra would be phenominal. Further more, something I have noticed about the orchestra, it doesn't seem like the principals are very sensitive to each other and the musical surroundings. If you were to compare the difference of how the CSO winds would blend together verses the the NY Phil winds, you would see a big difference.
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-06-04 22:16
The Sydney Symphony was, up until the time of Stuart Chalender a "good" orchestra - but not "brilliant". Unlike the Melbourne Symphony who have been brilliant for a long time (thanks to Maestros Iwaki and now Stenz). The new regime of the SSO swept out a lot of the old players (retired them off) and brought in "young blood", and took the orchestra out of direct control of the Australian Broadcasting Corporation and now the ABC orchestras are self-governing, independent subsidiaries of the ABC.
Edo de Waart then "finished them off" (in my opinion) and they now play with like any other major world orchestra. The old wood needed to go in the SSO's case as they just couldn't hack the demands. I love their ensemble playing now and the first violins are wonderful - never will you hear a sour note when they're playing in the stratosphere anymore - unlike in the 70s and early 80s when there was a good chance a "screecher" was almost predicatable.
So - in as much as it vexes me to agree with CSYO - in my experience with my home town band the "clean out" has done them a world of good.
And now with de Waart in his last year - and with Gianluigi Gelmetti at the helm, we'll be relieved of the tedium of endless Wagner and Bruckner concerts (don't get me wrong - I love both Wagner and Bruckner - but I've had my fill) and have a lot more contemporary music and Mozart to enjoy - bravo I say.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2003-06-04 22:18)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-06-05 13:57
"If the NY Phil was cleared of all it's older non productive members and replaced with the amazing young talent that is out there the orchestra would be phenominal. "
Duh!
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-06-05 16:30
cyso_clarinetist proclaimed: "..."If the NY Phil was cleared of all it's older non productive members and replaced with the amazing young talent that is out there the orchestra would be phenominal... "
- and so would the (insert your favorite sports team name).
Perhaps some of the older players should start "corking" their instruments ...GBK
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Author: Ralph G
Date: 2003-06-05 17:15
Oh, man, GBK, should we not be doing that??
________________
Artistic talent is a gift from God and whoever discovers it in himself has a certain obligation: to know that he cannot waste this talent, but must develop it.
- Pope John Paul II
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-06-05 17:18
Oh, I forgot. We can only use the "corked" instruments in rehearsals ...GBK
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-06-05 18:12
Yeah, I heard security kicked out the Bass section because they were loaded!!!
Gotta love NY
David Dow
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2003-06-05 19:32
I have to tell you that when I was in HS is Detroit in 1970, my private teacher was Marius Fossenkemper. I never knew until today that he had been the principal clarinetist for the DSO. No wonder I was so impressed with him back then. He had an incredible beautiful sound and seemed to play just about everything without batting an eyebrow. Wow!
Now it's even more frustrating to know that he was really upset with my parents for allowing our director to shang-hai me into the French Horn section of the band. Life goes on. At least I'm back to my original love now!
MOO,
Matt
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