 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: jim S.
Date: 2003-04-03 16:44
We never got any replies to the call for owners' information in order to pin down the serial numbers around the bore changes in 1954-1955 for the R-13. This could have been a great contribution to R-13 history. Buffet itself seems to have gone amnesiac in the matter. I have an e-mail from an ex- Buffet-U. S. executive that indicates that the subject is held very closely by Buffet and retirees who might have given info have disappeared from view.
As a contribution and as a stimulant to a revival of the subject, I am providing the following measurements of a 1951 (37xxx) Buffet made with a 3/4" telescope gauge:
Top of UJ: Apparently now no longer completely round, varying from .580 " to .587"
Bottom of UJ: .580"
Top of barrel: .588" to .592"
Bottom of barrel: .580"
This seems to indicate that Buffet was providing reverse bore barrels in 1951! (This clarinet has been in my possession since it was bought new in 1951.)
This is the original thread:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=105203&t=101034#reply_105203
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-04-03 17:14
jim S. wrote:
>
> This seems to indicate that Buffet was providing reverse bore
> barrels in 1951! (This clarinet has been in my possession since
> it was bought new in 1951.)
I'm sorry - your point? Reverse taper barrels have been around, either on purpose or accidentally (I've been known to screw up on a lathe more than once) for quite a while.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2003-04-03 18:48
Jim,
I asked for Buffet owners of 1954-1955 to "check in" and did not get much of a response. Maybe things will be different this time. The below post came from this bulleton board;
Douglas wrote:
"Just to add a bit of information about the polycylindrical Buffet R-13: last year I bought two Buffet Bb's at auctions. One was a serial #48526 (1954) which was definitely the larger bore Buffet type previous to the the polycylindrical R-13 and a serial #48830 (1955) which was a smaller bore, polycylindrical design. Just two examples, but a bit more indication that 1955 was the year Buffet started marketing the Carree polycylindrical R-13."
Hope this helps
Mark
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jim S.
Date: 2003-04-03 18:54
Reversed cones were around, perhaps, because Moennig knew all about the concept from his early training in Germany and Selmer was using it. I understand the device was used in bassoons and in unfraised Selmers of the 1930's. But I didn't know that Buffet was using the device in 1951 on their clarinets, which have been thought of as "pre R-13".
Your (Mark's) comment prompted me to go back to Gibson's "Clarinet Acoustics" to see what I could find. He has always said that Caree's poly-cylinrical bore design began in 1950 or '51. I don't know whether he had contacts at the factory that gave him this information, but he was a great measurer of instruments and probably confirmed his statements, at least, with measurements of instruments he had in his hands. In his book, (p. 32) Gibson describes the Caree bore as being cylindrical in the barrel. In his table on p.38 he shows the Caree bore (treated as constant, post-1950) as being reduced by .03" in the barrel to 14.92 at the bottom. I believe this converts to .587" at the bottom using the conversion factor of 25.41. Though this indicates a small reversal in the dimensions, it hardly meets the definition of "reversed cone", since Moennig's dimensions are .589" at the top and .580" at the bottom. It looks to me as though, in my 1951 Buffet, Caree was already experimenting with the bore, defined as beginning with the top of the barrel. My clarinet, if I have measured it correctly, looks like it began as a classic R-13 in the LH bore and has warped a bit at the top of the section. The really strange thing, though, is the fact that it seems to have a classic Moennig-style reversed cone barrel. The barrel is definitely the original. I think it was part of Caree's on-going experimentation at this early stage in the development of the R-13 design, and a feature that he ultimately rejected. Just a theory, and another reason to call for more practical measurements from the field.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-04-03 19:37
Jim -
The exact changeover point to the R-13 design is not certain. I follow these threads, and the best information I have is that serial # 48526 (1954) is pre-R-13, and 48830 (1955) is R-13. I'm reasonably sure that the changeover was accompanied by a change in the design of the key-guide for the top two trill keys, from flat metal cut in a triangular shape to a cylinder with a slot cut down through it.
It's also been said, and it's perfectly believable, that Carre made a number of prototypes of the R-13. I have tried what I think is one of them, with no serial number, which the owner said he bought at the factory in the 1954/55 period.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jim S.
Date: 2003-04-04 17:49
Ken: Yes I agree that the keywork changes that you mention identify the last major maturing of the bore design that has come to be recognized as the R-13 Vintage. My curiosity has to do with what took place in the design between 1951 and 1955. I was hoping that persons with the measuring tools and the interest, such as repairmen, might be able, as they have these 51'-'55 Buffets in their hands, to document the bore (and perhaps tonehole position changes) during those five years. A telescope gauge with a long handle and a micrometer is what is needed to measure the whole upper joint bore which is where the basic changes took place, I believe. These are not terribly expensive.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
