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 ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Vytas 
Date:   2003-01-15 19:02

Buffet started marketing the polycylindrical R13 in 1955. Robert Carree's new design included a combination of polycylindrical bore and undercut tone holes. Buffet did not adopt the R-13 designation until 1955. OK, you know the story, but there is one problem with R-13 designation, however.

According to Hugo Schrieber the former President of the Buffet Company. The R-13 was a stock number assigned to the "Buffet, "Professional Model" clarinet by the USA sole importer Carl Fisher as far back as 1936.

There is some evidence that identifies the 22,000 series (1936-1937) Buffet that Ralph McLane played as an R-13.

Buffet catalogs from 1941 –1950 show that the R-13, R-13 1/2, R-14, R-14 1/2, R-16, and the R-16 3/4 were intended as the professional models.

Here's Mr. Francois Kloc Manager of Woodwinds North America Boosey & Hawkes Musical Instruments Inc. comment:
"I have with me an original catalogue from the 50's that present the NEW models of Buffet Crampon clarinets that were distributed at this time by Carl Fisher Musical Instruments CO. Inc. New York 3 NY. The Models numbers are kind of funny and I am not sure one hundred percent, but I think those were made by Carl Fisher and not Buffet for this market I can double check. I give you some example: R13, R13 1/2, R14, R14 1/2, R16, R16 3/4. The 1/2 apparently was used for the clarinet with Eb lever for the R13. The R14 was a clarinet with 17 keys and 7 rings which was a clarinet with the Eb lever + a ring for the third finger to facilitate the G# passages. The R16 was a 19 key 7 Rings clarinet articulated G#, + Eb lever and Forked Bb. The R16 3/4 was a 20 keys 7 rings clarinet With all the feature from the R16 + low Eb key. When I found this catalogue it was the first time I have seen those number. I have seen many Buffet clarinets with Name from cities or stores on it I think it was very common many years ago now the stores put their sticker on the case".
All this info above is not new and can be found on this site.

OK. Now I get it! There is an R-13 and there is an R-13

How to tell an R-13 from an R-13?

If you compare an older instrument from 1954 and newly introduced R-13 you'll some find changes in the key design. THIS NEW KEY DESIGN SIGNIFIES the SWITCH and that's what identifies newly introduced R-13 from the rest of so called R-13 that were made before 1955. With the introduction of the R-13 the throat "A" and "G#" keys got separate posts, the C#/G# key got a needle spring and so on. Mounting of the throat keys is crucial for identification Robert Carree's poly-cylindrical R-13.
But this is not the end of the story. Let's talk about R-13 prototypes that most certainly were made during 1950 and 1955... ..What?... How many cylinders in a poly-cylindrical bore?... Never mind....
______________________________________________________________
This is pure speculation on my part. But some facts suggest that prototypes exist. Without measuring the bore no one can tell.
According to Mr. Moennig, during the 1952-1953 Buffet clarinet the bore design changed for the worse thanks to the great idea of one of the French Engineers. The bore of the lower joint was so large that if made the right hand notes go a quarter-tone sharper in pitch. Bad bore clarinets (39,000 to 41,000) labeled "Academy Model" and sold as student level clarinets.So?

OK.... Now it gets more interesting.

1. According to Mr. Francois Kloc "The Academy model from Buffet is an R13 that came with a little default on the stamp or scratch on the key work or something minor that doesn't affect the instrument but was to expensive at this time to fix. Then they came with the Academy model less expensive than the "regular" R13.The item number was R113. They are often great instruments. Today we could change a key or re-plating keys at lesser cost than before".

than Mr. Francois Kloc wrote:
2. "Robert Caree designed the Poly-cylindrical concept around 1950 then Buffet made what they called the No1 which was a pre R13 with this new bore design and was pitched at 440. The R13 production using R13 name started in 1955. So I can tell you with almost full insurance that your instrument is a Poly cylindrical clarinet N01 which I would compare with the early R13. I hope this help and that it's sound clear to you".

I'm not sure if Mr Francois Kloc has in mind the Academy Model from that era, but the second post indicates that some R-13 prototypes were developed and sold before 1955. Also I'm not sure if those bad bore Academy Models were actually first and unsuccessful attempt to market new poly-cylindrical R13 or just a new Pre R-13 design... and what's No1??? I've seen Academy Models on eBay but never had one in my hands.
________________________________________________________________
HOW TO IDENTIFY ROBERT CARREE'S R-13?

If you shop for an older R-13 on e-Bay or on the web the first thing you want to do is to examine photos of the Upper-Joint:

Make sure that the throat keys "A" and "G#" are mounted on separate posts.

Make sure there is "Made in France" just below the BC inscription. There AREN'T any markings below "Made in France" on a regular R-13.

Serial numbers have NO letter/prefix before the number. Look for serial numbers 50,000 and up. (My research indicates that the number is correct, but I cannot be 100% sure. If the serial number is close to 50,000 just make sure that the throat keys "A" and "G#" are mounted on separate posts. Exception is the "F" before the serial #, which is an indication of a clarinet manufactured for European market and are pitched @A = 442 - 444HZ).

Markings on all section should read "Buffet Crampon & Cie, A Paris, BC, Made in France"

Serial number appears twice on UJ and LJ, but some clarinets were stamped once on the Upper-Joint only (1981). If there is no serial number on the UJ and it appears only on LJ, most likely you have replacement Upper-Joint from the factory. Vytas K.

PS
Can you identify this clarinet? Just don't tell me it's an R-13 coz’ it's NOT and R-13. It's and R-13!... Period!...Right, right... But which one??..1955?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=922129442

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: GBK 
Date:   2003-01-15 19:35

"...With the introduction of the R-13 the throat "A" and "G#" keys got separate posts, the C#/G# key got a needle spring and so on..."

The spring for the C#/G# key was changed from a flat spring to a needle spring at about serial number (+/-) 115,000 (1970) ...GBK

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Brenda Siewert 
Date:   2003-01-15 19:47

I would be more interested to know how the new owner likes the instrument.

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Vytas 
Date:   2003-01-15 19:54

GBK wrote:
<<<<The spring for the C#/G# key was changed from a flat spring to a needle spring at about serial number (+/-) 115,000 (1970)>>>

Definitely NOT! I don't know where you getting this information from, but that's complete false. I DO own R-13, with the serial number VERY CLOSE to 50,000.. As a matter of fact I'm holding it in my hands right now. Please don't tell me that it has a flat spring on the C#/G# key! I know better!

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Douglas 
Date:   2003-01-15 20:31

Just a bit more on the "R-13" serial numbers. A couple of years ago I bought at auction a Buffet, serial number 48526. This clarinet measured as the slightly larger bore, older style R-13, not the poly-cylindrical model yet to come and dates, according to Boosey/Hawkes, to 1954. I also bought a Buffet, serial number 48830, and this clarinet measured like the present Vintage model Buffet clarinet, is poly-cylindrical, and dates from 1955. So, from this small sampling it appears that 1955 is the magical year for the poly-cylindrical R-13 and that some were available before the 50,000 serial number mentioned by Vytas.

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Fred 
Date:   2003-01-15 20:41

Vytas, my 1966 R13 s/n 876XX (bought new - original owner) has . . . and always has had . . . a flat spring on the C#/G#.

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Synonymous Botch 
Date:   2003-01-15 20:54

And how many pinheads can dance on the end of an Angel?

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Vytas 
Date:   2003-01-15 20:59

Douglas,
Can you please tell me if your Buffet from 1955 has the throat "A" and "G#" keys on separate posts and the C#/G# key - a needle spring. It's very interesting in which category your 1955 Buffet belongs to: R-13 prototype or present Vintage R-13 model. One thing is clear from your description that your clarinet has an poly-cylindrical R-13 bore. I've already mentioned I'm not sure on the serial numbers especially below 50,000 but I'm completely sure about the key design switch.

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: William 
Date:   2003-01-15 21:00

Which end?????

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Ken Shaw 
Date:   2003-01-15 21:21

One change in design hasn't been mentioned. The pre-Carre Buffets (dubbed R-13 in the catalog, but not as an official model name) had the key guide for the two top trill keys made of a piece of sheet metal bent in a flat-bottomed "U" shape and tapered toward the top, in a blunt triangle. On the Carre R-13s, this guide is in the shape of a cylinder with a slot cut down through it.

The eBay instrument has both the triangular key guide and the combined posts for the A and Ab key. While there's no guarantee that there weren't a few Carre R-13s made with earlier key design, I think this is one of the last pre-Carre instruments.

Best regards.

Ken Shaw

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: GBK 
Date:   2003-01-15 21:31

Vytas...My R-13 serial number 96xxx has a C#/G# flat spring, which has never been changed. I am the original owner.

Clark Fobes even mentions the flat spring/needle spring conversion in his article on intonation:

http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Equipment/Intonation.html ...GBK

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Vytas 
Date:   2003-01-15 21:46

I remember reading somewhere that in 1955 some top technicians in US Did Not like the switch from flat spring to the needle spring and it possible that Buffet was bouncing from one design to the other. Also, I heard that some top players want a flat spring back on the C#/G# key right now. BTW I'm not an original owner, but I can assure you that there was no modification done on the instrument.

I would like to hear from Ken Shaw who is an expert on the key design... at least in my eyes.

Also, I want to apologize GBK for being an ass, but that doesn't change a thing, my Vintage R-13 still has a needle spring on the C#/G# key.

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: GBK 
Date:   2003-01-15 22:00

Vytas...No hard feelings. Apology accepted.

Here is an interesting article concerning Moennig's dislike for the C#/G# spring change at around 125xxx:

http://www.woodwind.org/Databases/Logs/1999/05/001182.txt ...GBK

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Vytas 
Date:   2003-01-15 22:31

I overhauled several series 50,000 Buffets and I remember all of them had a needle spring on the C#/G# key. I just called to a friend of mine who owns Vintage Buffet Serial number 52,4XX and he confirmed "the C#/G# key has a needle spring"

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Bill 
Date:   2003-01-16 00:18

The best-playing clarinet I have ever had in my hands is Buffet 25,0xx, made long before the mid-50's "breakthrough." I own clarinets of all types, but the insistence on the Buffet polycylindrical clarinets mystifies me. It's a very sad commentary on the concept of clarinet tone.

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Mark Charette 
Date:   2003-01-16 00:19

Bill wrote:
>
> It's a very sad
> commentary on the concept of clarinet tone.

LOL!

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Bill 
Date:   2003-01-16 00:27

Mark,

Have you played anything _other_ than a narrow-bore instrument?

Bill.

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Mark Charette 
Date:   2003-01-16 00:37

Yes.

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: David Spiegelthal 
Date:   2003-01-16 00:54

Shall we go back to talking about ligatures? <LOL>

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: jbutler 
Date:   2003-01-16 01:09

Okay, my R-13 (102XXX) that I sold about three years ago was a 1968 model. I was not the original owner, but did know the original owner (we played in band together) and the UJ C#/G# spring was a flat spring. Believe me, it was. I purchased the clarinet from the original owner in 1971 for the total sum of $150 and helped him paint the interior of his three bedroom house for him and his new bride.

SOOOOOO..........where does that leave us in this mess?

jbutler

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Bill 
Date:   2003-01-16 01:33

Buffet 95826
flat spring

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: madvax 
Date:   2003-01-16 01:52


I own a Buffet R-13 with the following characteristics:

Serial Number: 535xx

Poly-Cylindrical bore (Measured by a qualified woodwind tech)

G# and A keys are on separate posts

C#/G# key has a flat spring

Upper trill keys have the cylindrical shaped guide

Plays great!

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Wayne Thompson 
Date:   2003-01-16 03:03

I bought an old Buffet catalog on eBay a while ago. It seems to be pre Carree R-13. The designations are as Francoise describes, the clarinets are described as 'Master Bore'. The saxophones are 'Dynaction', not 'super dynaction', and cost of a matched pair of R-13's, "....retested by New york's finest Syumphony Clarinetists....", is $650. Here's what it says about Sensitivity: "Every note in the register, from the highest "C" to the lowest 'E", responds without any variation of tonal strength or accuracy. The flowing quality of tone that is so even and smooth, makes playing a Buffet Clarinet a joy and a pleasure."

It's a fun read.

Wayne Thompson

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Vytas 
Date:   2003-01-16 03:40

Bill,

I agree with you. I recently overhauled and sold on eBay pre Buffet R-13 from 1923. Clarinet was in a very bad shape to begin with but after overhaul clarinet sounded as good as any poly-cylindrical R13 out there and BTW the UJ C#/G# spring was a flat spring.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10182&item=935998669&rd=1

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Jack Kissinger 
Date:   2003-01-16 04:54

As a general design characteristic, using a needle spring on the C#/G# key is not a new development. I have a Boehm system C clarinet made by Laubé (which, according to Langwell's ceased operations in 1898) that uses a needle spring on the C#/G# key. It appears to be original. I also have a couple of early Evettes (Sponsored by ...) and an Evette & Schaeffer probably from the 1930's (A-prefix, no adjusting screw on the A key) all of which have needle springs. On the other hand, I have 3 pre-1970 R13's,

76xxx
89xxx (A)
104xxx

All have flat springs. I bought the first two new in the 1960's. If, in fact, there was a change in the spring associated with the Carre R13, the evidence I have seen in the posts above (Madvax, Vytas and others) suggests that it was *from* a needle spring *to* a flat spring rather than the reverse, with an eventual return to the needle spring around 115xxx - 125xxx. In any case, it appears to me that Buffet changed from the needle spring to the flat spring for some of their models sometime in the early 50's. It may or may not have been connected with the Carre model.

BTW, the last time I looked at the Boosey site, they had changed the estimated date of introduction for the Carre clarinet from 1955 to 1950. It sounds, however, as though the instrument remained a work-in-progress until at least 1955. Of course, they could be wrong ..... (As I look at this thread, I think the only thing I can really conclude from all this "evidence" is that I have too many clarinets.)

Best regards,
jnk

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Ken 
Date:   2003-01-16 12:54

All this Buffet lore is very interesting but demonstrates to me the incredibly poor organizational and recordkeeping keeping skills of the makers/owners of the "Buffet" trademark in their first 30 years of business ... good thing though their talent and dedication to the craft was realized on the bench where it belongs. v/r Ken

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Douglas 
Date:   2003-01-16 14:04

Ken commented on the "incredibly poor organizational and recordkeeping skills" of Buffet/Boosey. Keep in mind that Boosey bought Buffet only 20+ years ago and Buffet did go through all the devastation of the second world war. If we like Buffets, and most people seem to in spite of all our complaining, we need to remember we are lucky to still have the company.

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Hank 
Date:   2003-01-16 14:30

Hi,

Let me take a slightly different tack here. I have recently sold of two Master Model clarinets; both were different but had many of the same characteristics as the R-13 variations discussed above.

1. K series number, one combo A and G# post, needle spring on G#/C#, U shaped trill key bracket, no Lower Section indentations below the crowsfoot.

2. 5 digit number, two post on the A and G#, flat spring, block type trill key bracket, lower section indentations below the crow's foot.

As I recall, both did not, and I repeat, did not have a tapered bore. So, what's the lineage here if in fact the the Master Model is a rejected R 13?

Hank

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Douglas 
Date:   2003-01-16 15:20

I know I will start a whole new argument here, but I do not believe it is the E13 that is a rejected R13, it is the R13 with the Buffet trademark with the overstamp of Academy Model that is the rejected R13.

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Mark Charette 
Date:   2003-01-16 17:28

Honestly speaking, why does a company need to keep records of what went with what serial number? It's not relevant to running the company, especially when you're turning out thousands of items that will incur no legal liability should they become faulty after the end of the warrantee (as opposed to my current occupation, working with the auto manufacturers). The serial numbers are nice for historians (and us) and perhaps can help us date things, but the amount of paperwork involved in trying to keep track of which serial number goes with which model doesn't come close to covering the cost.

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Ken Shaw 
Date:   2003-01-16 17:55

It's obvious that Buffet made changes in design over the years and "streamlined" them into the manufacturing, without announcing them. I've seen all sorts of odd keywork on older instruments.

I've asked several repairmen, including Moennig apprentices, when Buffet made particular changes in keywork, and what serial number the first Carre R-13 had, but no one has been able to tell me much.

Part of the problem is that the Carre changes were not introduced simultaneously, and there were various experimental models in the early 1950s. Also, the Carre design itself underwent changes, including a very substantial change around 1970, when the outside diameter of the body was enlarged and the register vent was lowered. Buffet has reintroduced the original R-13 design as the Vintage model, with its various good (tone) and bad (intonation) characteristics.

Another dating-from-design problem is that a large percentage of professionally played Buffets went through the Moennig workshop, where the holes were undercut and other changes were made.

Certainty is something we'll just have to live without.

Best regards.

Ken Shaw

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Mark P. Jasuta 
Date:   2003-01-17 15:10

Gentlemen,
The fact that the throat "A" and "G#" keys got separate posts is not reliable to distinguish R-13 clarinets. This change was industry wide and just so happened in the 50's. I have 2 metal Noblet clarinets the older of the two uses 1 post for the A and G# keys, while the newer one uses separate posts. This was done because aligning 3 posts is much harder than 2.
Mark

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Vytas 
Date:   2003-01-17 23:33

Mark P. Jasuta wrote:

>>>The fact that the throat "A" and "G#" keys got separate posts is not reliable to distinguish R-13 clarinets. This change was industry wide and just so happened in the 50's.<<<

LOL. It just doesn't work that way. Do you mean someone came up with the idea and the others borrowed it for their own design? For your information Selmer had separate post for the throat keys at least seven years before Buffet came up with this idea. LOL. In 1954 Buffet still had sheared post for the throat keys.

I have 1948 "N" series (412X) Selmer and guess what, it has separate posts. Here is the link to 1949 "N" series Selmer. See for yourself.
BTW this horn is also mine.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=930315957&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOAS:US:3
_________________________________________________________________________________

I believe all the info that started this thread is correct. It seems that Buffet changed back to the flat spring design for the C#/G# key in 1956 and again back to the needle spring design in 1970

Serial number 52,4XX from 1956 - needle spring.
According to madvax Serial number 535xx from 1956 already has a flat spring.

I believe Robert Carree's new design poly-cylindrical R13 serial numbers start 50,000 and up.... but to play on the safe side I would say it is somewhere in between 48801 – 51000

Vytas

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Mark P. Jasuta 
Date:   2003-01-18 02:37

Well, All Righty Then!
The separate post configuration was implemented by almost everyone because it was more tolerant of manufacturing errors than the shared post configuration. Vytas, points out two clarinets, one made in 1948 and another in 1949 have the separate post configuration, and of course Buffet finally in 1955. So yes, it was a good idea, and it did take a while to filter through the ranks. (I believe it originated from the H. N. White Co. but, I'm not sure.)
Hey, Leblanc has been toying with a polycylindrical bore configuration. I wonder where they got that?
Soooo, did separate posts herald the arrival of the R13? Or, Was it an idea who's time had come?
BTW I have an R13 serial # 49,9xx with the C#/G# flat spring.
Mark

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Vytas 
Date:   2003-01-18 05:06

Mark,

Does your R-13 have sheared or separate post configuration for the throat "A" and "G#" keys?

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Vytas 
Date:   2003-01-18 14:42

Sorry, I meant >>>shared<<<

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Rob 
Date:   2003-01-18 15:59

To Hank,

Vytas' posting stated that Mr. Kloc identified the Academy Model as a rejected R-13. I did not see anywhere in his post a mention of this being the case for the Master Model, though I have heard and read that is the conventional wisdom.

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Hank 
Date:   2003-01-18 20:33

Hi Rob,

I think the Master Model and R13 lineage has been pretty well discussed on the BB and it appears to be so. But one never knows what interesting facts can pop up on the BB.

Hank

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Mark P. Jasuta 
Date:   2003-01-19 00:55

Vytas,
It has a shared post "A" "G#".
Barrel shaped trill key bracket.
Cut outs under the crows feet.
Polycylindrical bore.
C#/G# flat spring.
Metal inserts at all flat spring contact points to protect the wood.
Mark

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: David Pegel 
Date:   2003-01-19 19:21

I'm lost. Can we start again at the double bar?

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Vytas 
Date:   2003-01-19 23:29

Mark wrote:
1. *** BTW I have an R13 serial # 49,9xx with the C#/G# flat spring.***
2. ***It has a shared post "A" "G#".
Barrel shaped trill key bracket.
Cut outs under the crows feet.
Polycylindrical bore.
C#/G# flat spring.
Metal inserts at all flat spring contact points to protect the wood.***

Mark, your info supports my research and is another proof that with the introduction of the R-13 the throat "A" and "G#" keys got separate posts, the C#/G# key got a needle spring.

The needle spring design for the C#/G# key didn't last long just after a few thousand instruments Buffet switched back to the flat spring design.

In my opinion, to avoid all this confusion with R-13 designation I would place them in two deferent categories.

1. R-13 master bore
2. R-13 polycylindrical bore (Robert Carree's new design)

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Mark P. Jasuta 
Date:   2003-01-20 14:13

Vytas,
The problem with trying to discover a definitive start serial number for the R13 is that Buffet had a habit of making unannounced subtle changes to their instruments. Proof of this was their re-introduction of the "vintage" R13. It proves that these subtle changes over a period of time changed the properties of the instrument to such an extent that players wanted the older instruments. The demand eventually became great enough that it justified the cost of reintroducing the 1950's R13.
Now I realize the importance of visual aids to cull through the large quantity of claimed R13's out there, after all you can't visually verify an R13 bore. It must be determined, as I have, by careful measurements. In the absence of true records it is the only sure way. Remember the R13 bore in the upper joint has 3 different diameters.
Mark

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Vytas 
Date:   2003-01-20 16:48

Mark,

I can't find Mr. Francois Kloc's post now, but I remember he wrote that ALL of Pro Buffets shipped to US starting 1950 actually had a polycylindrical bore and the rest had a master bore. Also he mentioned that Mr. Robert Carree became production manager in 1955 and that's when Buffet introduced R-13 as a model.
Before that "R-13" was a stock number for pro clarinets made for US market. Also I got the impression that the very first R-13's had a different bore than regular R-13, but its unclear to me which ones were the very first, those that were made in 1950 or the first and newly introduced R-13 in 1955

Mr. Francois Kloc wrote:
****The differences between the Vintage and the regular R13 are: The Vintage is made out of Prestige wood, which is denser than the wood we are using on the Regular R13 (it doesn't mean it is better quality). I say that because many people think that we don't use poor wood to make instruments it will not work.
The Bore of the Vinatge is 2 mm smaller than the R13 on the cylinder and the entry cone is smaller too. The 12 register tube is 1 mm up and the bell is 1mm longer. It comes with adjustable thumb rest and two barrels 1 polycylindrical and 1 conical to give you two different ways to play the instrument. The conical one is engraved V2. The Vintage came out after Rene Lesieux the Rechearch and Development Manager at Buffet did a tour and met a lot of player in North America. Many of them asked him if it was possible for Buffet to make an instrument more like the first 1950' R13 and it is what Rene worked on. Francois Kloc***

Vytas

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Mark P. Jasuta 
Date:   2003-01-21 03:10

Vytas,
My money is on 1955. I can't remember whom, but someone wrote in and said he verified a clarinet serial #48,xxx (can't remember the exact number) to have the straight big bore. According to the Buffet website that number was made in 1954. From this you can see why I believe 1955 was in fact that magical year. I wonder what serial# the breakpoint is for the change in bore design. I'll bet if we weed through this BB we can conceivably get to within say, 300 units. It would be cool to really zero in on those consecutive serial numbers. One being the older big bore and the other the first polycylindrical R13.

Mark

To All,
If anybody has an "R13" serial# between 48,000 and 50,500 we want to hear from you.

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: jim lande 
Date:   2003-02-17 19:11

I guess I am a month late posting. Vytes pointed to this most interesting discussion, which I missed when it was current.

On the subject of springs on the C#/G#, I have worked on a lot of metal clarinets from roughly 1925 to 1955. Almost all have needle springs for the C#/G#. One of these is a Buffet metal clarinet. Let me stress that none of the keywork looks related to keywork on wooden Buffet clarinets. It has an articulated C#/G# that uses a needle spring. (The mechanism is very peculiar. If anyone is interested, I will be happy to mail some pix.

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 Re: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Avie 
Date:   2004-02-15 23:39

I own a 1968 r13 super dynaction ser. no. F103xxx and the c#g# key has a flat spring. I wonder why they dept changing it from needle to flat and back to needle again! "The exception is the "F" before the serial No." Does that mean that it is still an R13 even though it has the letter F before the serial No? Were they mfrd. in the USA and sent to Europe market or made in Europe?



Post Edited (2004-02-16 12:03)

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 RE: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: lyle a 
Date:   2004-10-11 04:07

You expressed interest in my Buffet s/n and I'm curious as to what I have. It is a Buffet Academy s/n 49046. The B&H data base finds this s/n under 'Professional Clarinets" and gives the year of production as 1955. It has the shared post for the A and G# keys and a with a needle spring--although this may have been changed out when it was recently overhauled. The person who did the overhaul thought it was an R-13.

I measured the UJ with a vernier caliper and obtained 0.585 in top, 0.575 in bottom. It has the cut-outs under the right hand pinky keys (crow's feet?). It also has the cylindrical cutout guide for the trill keys. It is properly stamped as Buffet with s/n on both UJ and LJ. The stamp 'Academy' was apparently added later as it appears crooked with respect to the basic markings.

I'm not great with calipers--but if I can do further measurements (or inspection) if you can tell me what to measure (or observe). I don't play the instrument--my 12-year old son does so I am unable to evaluate how it plays. The person overhauling it thoght it was a very good clarinet.

From the discussion here this looks to be a transitional design, perhaps the No1.

You may want to forward this to the other experts on this thread and I'd appreciate any insight you folks can provide.

Lyle

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 Re: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: BobD 
Date:   2004-10-11 14:58

I have never seen a Buffet R13 with "R13" marked or engraved on it. Leaving the model designation off allows diverting questionable instruments to other model designations....right?

Bob Draznik

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 Re: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Lennyclarinet26 
Date:   2010-10-16 20:41

Hi, I happen to have what is I believe an early 80's Academy model Buffet, I'm borrowing it until I can afford a new Prestige R13, so it's not actually mine. I found some info., two serial number results came up when I searched on Buffet's home site, one was 1959, the other 1982, I think, judging by the condition that it's mid-80's. It's a good instrument, I haven't played it much yet, because I got it just 2 days ago, but it's missing one spring on the upper section sliver key, otherwise it's an excellent clarinet form my current standpoint.

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 Re: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Barry Vincent 
Date:   2010-10-16 21:50

I think my plastic Jupiter clarinet is nice :)

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 Re: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Vytas 
Date:   2010-10-17 02:03

Lennyclarinet26 wrote:
>>>"Hi, I happen to have what is I believe an early 80's Academy model Buffet, I'm borrowing it until I can afford a new Prestige R13, so it's not actually mine. I found some info., two serial number results came up when I searched on Buffet's home site, one was 1959, the other 1982"<<<

What's the serial number?

Buffet Academy model info:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=268725&t=268725

Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player




Post Edited (2010-10-17 02:12)

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 Re: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: William 
Date:   2010-10-17 16:20

Just checked all four of my "R13" Buffets against the info given by Vytas and am pleased to learn they are true R13's from the 1960's. Now, I guess it is all up to me to make them sound like it--LOL. With my Chicago Kaspar & Forestone reeds, I have no excuses left...........

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 Re: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: David Spiegelthal 2017
Date:   2010-10-18 02:41

I am pleased to report that none of my clarinets, of any size, is a Buffet, R-13 or otherwise. But then again, I didn't beat out Ricardo for the NY Phil job, so whaddo I know..........

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 Re: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: JJAlbrecht 
Date:   2010-10-18 02:45

Well, my daughter has two R13s,.... my old Bb and a newer A. I have divested.

Jeff

“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010

"A drummer is a musician's best friend."


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 Re: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: Ken Shaw 2017
Date:   2010-10-18 12:45

David -

The last time I saw Ricardo play live, he was using Selmer Recitals with Backun barrels and bells. However, that was in 2005, and he has switched instruments from time to time.

Does anyone know what he's playing now?

Ken Shaw

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 Re: ? I thought an R-13 was an R-13 ?
Author: CocoboloKid 
Date:   2010-10-18 15:02

Leblanc/Backun Legacies



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