The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2010-09-19 10:58
I am almost ashamed to say that I really enjoyed this Sax ensemble:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhgcXqWQhkQ&feature=related
Nothing to do with Baroque style but enjoyable all the same. One of the Clarinet ensembles I conduct, managed to win a competition playing a Baroque piece in fairly Romantic style (shamelessly playing for the judges' taste).
How important is playing in the correct style (reasonably contentious issue in itself ie; what is the correct style?) to you?
Chris.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2010-09-19 12:30
I enjoyed it too! I thought they played well, they played tastefully, and they really tried to capture the spirit of Bach.
I've played plenty of Bach transcriptions on clarinet, and there is always the debate about how Bach should be played. When I was in college, I had a musicology class with a professor who tended to prefer historically accurate performances. That meant no crescendos or diminuendos and no ritard at the end. If one plays Bach in this manner, it can (depending on the piece) sound rather dry. Unfortunately, we really don't know exactly what Bach had in mind.
One day when I was in college, I had musicology class and the professor went on and on about historically accurate performances. Following the class, I had a clarinet lesson and played a Bach transcription. I played it in the way the musicology professor would have liked, but my clarinet teacher stopped me. I will never forget his words: "If Bach had known that the Romantic Period was around the corner, he would have wanted his music played this way!"
I like the way Casals interpreted Bach. I don't know if it is completely accurate historically, but he really breathed life into Bach's music. I know that there will be some who will be horrified by this, but I confess--I really enjoy the Stokowski Bach transcriptions.
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Author: ned
Date: 2010-09-19 12:34
Ashamed - of what??!! What an odd statement.
I'm sure Adolphe Sax would have been very impressed with this version of Bach's work.
''.......what is the correct style?).........''
To answer your question. There is none actually.
They play interesting music. They play it in tune. People like it (ie ) that audience. Nothing else matters.
And, thanks for the link to this group too, I have just filed it in my ''favourites'' folder.
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Author: ned
Date: 2010-09-19 12:39
clarinetguy says "I know that there will be some who will be horrified by this, but I confess--I really enjoy the Stokowski Bach transcriptions.''
Yes I'm horrified - horrified that you made the statement in the first instance.
It seems that some of our correspondents need to get a grasp on reality and enter the real world.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-09-19 12:57
I would say, "what's the point of not playing in the correct style?"
I've heard transcriptions of J.S. Bach for Saxophone and Clarinet as well that were very technically impressive but lacked sensitivity to the style and time period. I have no problem with transcriptions, but am unimpressed by those who make no attempt to play in the correct style.
Bero's sequenza played in a baroque style would be equally as offensive as a baroque piece in a romantic style.
Modern composers using baroque materials in new ways however would bring up a whole new list of stylistic issues...
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2010-09-19 13:06
I think I am of the camp that there is no shortage of those that will perform in a stylistically correct, or in a relatively informed manner. As such, there shouldn't be any problem with those that would play in other fashion.
As a matter of fact, I am unimpressed by the lack of attempts to play what we associate as masterpieces in other style.
Such mish-mash could sound downright offensive, but at least that would encourage a conversation about the piece for the audience, at a time when growing apathy towards anything older than 10 years in music is the pop culture.
Post Edited (2010-09-19 13:07)
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Author: ned
Date: 2010-09-19 13:10
NBeaty says ''Modern composers using baroque materials in new ways however would bring up a whole new list of stylistic issues...''
Such as............?
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2010-09-19 13:15
Ned said;
"Ashamed - of what??!! What an odd statement."
Well I guess the shame comes from how much I enjoyed these guys playing Bach in a 'jazzy' style. When I teach, and play, I try to get across the idea of playing the way the composer intended the piece.
These players made no such effort and yet I really enjoyed the performance.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2010-09-19 13:16
Depends. I say that when you play, you should play to entertain your audience.
I have a recording of Richard Stoltzman playing the stravinsky's 3 pieces. They are CERTAINLY an interesting interpretation. Different than ANY other ones I've heard, and perhaps stylistically 'wrong'. But he recorded it and I'm sure there is an audience out there that much prefers his recordings than those which were 'correct'.
Alexi
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2010-09-19 14:08
While it might be considered "correct" to play a piece in exactly the way the composer intended it to be played, it does not follow that it is the only way it can be played. Once a composer has launched a piece into the performance arena it will inevitably be the subject of arrangements and interpretations by those who think it sounds better played differently. As long as there is acknowledgement of the original composer and of the fact that this is an arrangement I see nothing wrong with this. It presents the music to a wider audience, and what can be wrong with that. Anyway, performers have always put their own stamp on the way they present a piece.
Tony F.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2010-09-19 14:28
Tony F wrote:
> While it might be considered "correct" to play a piece in
> exactly the way the composer intended it to be played, it does
> not follow that it is the only way it can be played.
I think that's missing the point. There is almost no way by using notation one can play a piece "exactly the way the composer intended it to be played", if indeed the composer even intended it be played in some "exact" manner (and often the composer of yore would have expected perhaps even improvisation, as Mozart often did - see the recent Klarinet postings on this subject). Rather, a composer sets a framework where we can express his/her music. What does "Largo" or "Moderato" mean - in context with the music at that moment? What does that accent mean? How should you accent it (there's more than one way). Rubato needed to bring out the musical line? Were those metronome marks suggested by the composer - or were they added by some editor to "help" the novice?
There's an opportunity on every note to do something _within_ what the composer wrote.
I have no problems with transcriptions - sometimes they make me notice something new in the music or are highly enjoyable for what they are - but there's already so much flexibility in what a composer wrote. Most times transcriptions are written only because a performer can't play the indicated instrument - and sometimes that's exactly why a _composer_ will write a transcription of an earlier piece. Gotta make money somehow!
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2010-09-19 14:50
I'm waiting for the "historically informed performance" camp to work on performing each Baroque or Classic or Renaissance piece as a variety of subsequent "non-historically informed performance" musicians must have.
For example: Let's have a concert of Bach as it would have been performed by Mendelssohn and then perform the same pieces as Mozart or Virgil Fox or whomever else would have...
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2010-09-19 15:16
I don't care what style it's played in. As long as it's done well I have no complaints.
I'm sure that ensemble could play it in any style just as well.
Post Edited (2010-09-19 15:17)
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Author: GeorgeL ★2017
Date: 2010-09-19 15:38
If you are trying to please yourself, play it the way you want to play it.
If you are trying to please an audience, play it so they will enjoy it.
A dead composer will not care how you play it.
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Author: William
Date: 2010-09-19 16:32
"If it sounds good, it is good". Duke Ellington on classical music.
If I like what you've just played or written, you are great. If not, you are just "so-so"--or worse. It's up to ME......just like it is up to YOU and everyone else, including the uneducated--perhaps hearing music for the first time--and the "know-it-all" musicologist puritists who insist that they are correct. Music is for everyone and thank [insert personal diety] for that.
I wish that our old friend Tony Pay would offer words of wisdom on this subject.......
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-09-19 16:51
I think he _has_ - any number of times. Look in the archives.
Karl
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2010-09-19 17:32
I just dug out my old copy of "Classical Studies" for clarinet, transcribed and edited by Hymie Voxman (Rubank). It consists of Bach violin partitas and sonatas and cello suites, along with a few other selections (including three by Handel). I used this book a lot when I was younger and still play from it occasionally.
I was always puzzled about how some of these pieces should be played. For example, if you look at the preludes from the cello suites, they look like long exercises. Some of them seem to be nothing more than a relentless stream of sixteenth notes. If you eliminate crescendos and diminuendos and use nothing but terraced dynamics, the music can come off rather bland. In other words, these pieces can be looked at as music that one has to endure without much enjoyment.
We'll never know exactly what Bach intended. There has always been (and probably always will be) a lot of controversy. Here's an interesting link:
http://www.cello.org/Newsletter/Articles/angst.htm
I came across some quotes of CPE Bach in Harold Schonberg's book, Facing the Music. CPE was certainly not a carbon copy of his father, but he was 36 when JS died. He must have absorbed a lot from his father, and in his writings, we are given a few clues.
"In languishing sad passages the performer must languish and grow sad. Thus will the expression of the piece be more clearly perceived by the audience . . . Similarly, in lively, joyous passages, the executant must again
put himself into the appropriate mood. And so, constantly varying the passions, he will barely quiet one before he rouses another."
"Passages in a piece in the major mode which are repeated in the minor may be broadened somewhat on their repetition in order to heighten the effect. On entering a fermata expressive of languidness, tenderness, or sadness, it is customary to broaden slightly."
In speaking of rubato (with keyboard players in mind), CPE said:
"When the execution is such that one hand seems to play against the bar and the other strictly with it, it may be said that the performer is doing everything that can be required of him."
As many of you have pointed out, there are many valid ways to interpret the music of JS Bach. As clarinet (and sax) players, I think we're an open-minded group.
Post Edited (2010-09-19 17:34)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-09-19 20:17
I think it's important to be aware of what's likely "stylistically correct" and that any deviation thereof is due to a conscious decision rather than ignorance. I have no problem with any sort of deviations in this context.
This, of course, only applies to people who consider a particular realm of music (e.g. the Western classical tradition) to be their resident area. I have no problem with people from other backgrounds (Indian, Calypso, African drumming, etc.) playing Western classical music in a manner consistent with their own traditions.
So, really, the only type of thing I find issue with is some random orchestra playing Ravel, Haydn, and Monteverdi all in the exact same style without acknowledging that they would ordinarily be very different.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-09-19 20:18
Mind you, I'll be the first to criticize a group for butchering a piece, but my grudge will be with how BADLY they did something, not THAT they did it.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2010-09-19 20:23
EEBaum wrote:
> Mind you, I'll be the first to criticize a group for butchering
> a piece, but my grudge will be with how BADLY they did
> something, not THAT they did it.
And how BADLY they butcher it is in the eyes of the beholder. For instance, I heard a lot of snickers when Tale Ognenovski did his rendition of K.622, but all he was doing was interpreting it according to Macedonian styles.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2010-09-19 20:32
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> And they must hunt with sticks and stones in Macedonia
I find that offensive.
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Author: avumback
Date: 2010-09-19 21:36
This doesnt answer your question very well but the correct style of playing the clarinet is what works best for them or I should say what appeals to the audience. The sound that comes out of the instrument is the bottom line. Every player has their own style. Artie Shaw had a great style in his day. Although there are many more current books out I like Keith Steins "How to play the clarinet" as a reference.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2010-09-19 21:43
I know that he is respected in his own style, but Mozart just didn't work. It was horribly unevenly played, and just plainly unmusical. I wouldn't say that about his own style for his specialty, and he'd probably say the same if I were playing his style as well. But I do speak my mind.
Btw, I'd not be able to find Macedonia on a map quickly at all.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2010-09-19 21:57
Oh deary deary me ! Playing Bach on Saxophones ! How dare they ! Sebastian Bach never wrote for Saxophones ! Sacrilege ! Not to mention the Microphones. And just listen to that audience applauding like that , don't they realize that a musical crime has been committed! Ah well, welcome to the modern world.
I love it , where can I get a recording of this ?
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2010-09-20 00:46)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-09-19 22:24
Barry Vincent wrote:
> I love it , where can I get a recording of this ?
You haven't heard Vivaldi's Summer III ("Presto")....
--
Ben
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-09-19 23:14
If Bach heard it, he would probably quote Brahms: "So - it can be done that way too."
Ken Shaw
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-09-20 00:19
Been meaning to upload clips from my recital where I played the first movement of Bach Cello Suite #2 as a tango and the second as a saucy quasi-klezmer. I should get on that...
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: justme
Date: 2010-09-20 05:21
Thanks for posting this!
I'm PROUD, not ashamed that I enjoyed it.
The Vivaldi: Summer III, presto that was mentioned and played by this group, I'll post a link for anyone that is interested ( You'll like this if you liked the first link):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlKiM0Q3Kq4
Justme
"A critic is like a eunuch: he knows exactly how it ought to be done."
CLARINET, n.
An instrument of torture operated by a person with cotton in his ears. There are two instruments that are worse than a clarinet -- two clarinets
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2010-09-20 05:52
Wow !!!!!!!
I just watched the Vivaldi , now I feel completely inadequate. Thanks JustMe
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2010-09-20 05:55)
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Author: justme
Date: 2010-09-20 07:13
Barry Vincent said: " now I feel completely inadequate."
Don't feel bad, I always feel that way!
Justme
"A critic is like a eunuch: he knows exactly how it ought to be done."
CLARINET, n.
An instrument of torture operated by a person with cotton in his ears. There are two instruments that are worse than a clarinet -- two clarinets
Post Edited (2010-09-20 08:45)
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-09-20 09:27
clarinetguy wrote:
"I like the way Casals interpreted Bach. I don't know if it is completely accurate historically, but he really breathed life into Bach's music."
Check out Maurice Gendron doing the cello suites. I like Casals, but I really like Gendron.
Personally, when doing Baroque transcriptions, I think it is important to remember you are playing on an instrument that the composer did not intend for the works to be played on. The clarinet is not a violin, it is not a cello, and you should not try and sound like either- regardless of the piece, or the period, it should sound like a clarinet, and one should bring out the characteristics of the instrument.
One of my favorite Bach performers is Segovia- he transcribed, performed, recorded a lot of Bach. He didnt try and sound like a fiddle when he was playing the Chaconne- he didnt hide the instrument he was playing. He exploited the differences between the instruments.
And I never understood the notion that one is to play Bach without dynamics, or with only terraced dynamics. Music is SUPPOSED to have dynamic contrasts, even if the composer did not WRITE IN dynamic markings. If you like playing music without dynamics, play pop music.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-09-20 13:49
As an amateur, I want to learn how to play according to current academic standards of what's correct for the period, within the limits of my abilities and the instruments I own. I'm flexible about those limits. I don't own a basset clarinet or a basset horn, and can't afford to buy them, so I'm playing Mozart wrong on my clarinet in A. I can live with that. I also play adaptations of Bach's organ music on contra-alto clarinet and on bass sax. I can live with that, too, since practicing on a pipe organ is impractical for me. In fact, the bigger the transgression, the less it bothers me. Among my favorite CDs are "Tubas from Hell" and "The Criminal Trombone."
The transgressions that bother me are the ones that sound accidental, ignorant or purely self-indulgent (being different for the sake of being different). When I take stylistic liberties, knowing I don't possess professional-quality playing skills, then I always suspect myself of taking the easy way out. Before I monkey around with something, I try to learn to play it conventionally.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: William
Date: 2010-09-20 14:19
Transcriptions--or not?? SO WHAT!!!!!!!!!
"If it sounds good, it IS good". Duke
My ears will be the judge of what is good, and so will your's. To each her/his own.......
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2010-09-22 20:21
I don't find this to be outside the parameters of suitable style. It is rhythmic, punchy and at good clip to keep the intensity. The articulation is heavy and many times scooped but other than that what's wrong? They do the no vib ending and visually reinforce the dialogue that occurs in the music. I don't see big transgressions here. What are they?
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2010-09-23 11:41
Some clarification of ideas about authentic 'baroque' performance;
http://www.baroquemusic.org/barperf.html
This article brings in some fairly controversial views about the early use of vibrato, as well as no mention of some 'standard' baroque features such as; terraced dynamics, improvised ornamentation so perhaps it isn't as useful as I first thought.
Chris.
Post Edited (2010-09-23 13:16)
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Author: Barry Vincent
Date: 2010-09-23 17:05
Just a thought. If one desired to do an authentic 'baroque' performance on say an Oboe or Flute , wouldn't you have to have a baroque Oboe or Flute. The modern instruments are entirely different, louder for starters. And as far as Clarinets are concerned they 'arrived' sometime during this period and finally appeared in orchestras at the beginning of the Classical period.
Is there such a thing as a 'Baroque' Clarinet ?
Skyfacer
Post Edited (2010-09-24 21:57)
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2010-09-24 03:04
Good point Barry, this line of logic led to the formation of many 'original' instrument ensembles.
I would like to think we can move close to what the composer heard/intended even on modern instruments. I suspect our sound concept and artistic ideals have evolved as much as our instruments have.
Chris.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2010-09-25 01:06
Regarding the composer's intent here is an interesting bit of info from the program notes from a CD by the Broadwood Ensemble. It is referring to Beethoven's Quintet in Eb for piano and winds Op.16. "The final Rondo, again with Mozart in mind(this time recalling his horn writing), is noteworthy for its brilliant piano part. Beethoven is known to have performed his quintet several times and so thoroughly enjoyed the last movement that he would include extemporizations at the performance much to the annoyance of his fellow musicians."
As far as baroque I go no further than Glenn Gould and the Goldberg Variations. This to me is sublime and it is done on the piano not the keyboard of Bach's era.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2010-09-25 03:52
When you ask, "How important is it to play in a stylistically correct manner?", you invite the question, "What does 'important' mean?"
'Important' is a context dependent word. Important FOR WHAT?
Most of the arguments above can be seen to be arguments about the meaning of the word 'important'; and Bernstein's speech, mentioned by David Blumberg, is a model of clarity in that regard.
Would that we could all be as clear.
Quote:
RADIO PRESENTER: “The Canadian pianist Glenn Gould is to be soloist now, Leonard Bernstein conducting the New York Philharmonic, in a performance of the Piano Concerto No.1 in D minor by Brahms. [APPLAUSE].
I think Mr Bernstein will have something to say to the audience, so down to the stage.” [APPLAUSE]
LEONARD BERNSTEIN: “Don’t be frightened, Mr Gould is here...[LAUGHTER]…and will appear in a moment.
I am not, um, as you know, in the habit of speaking on any concert except the Thursday night previews but a curious situation has arisen which merits, I think, a word or two.
You are about to hear a rather, shall we say, ‘unorthodox’ performance of the Brahms D minor concerto, a performance distinctly different from any I’ve ever heard, or even dreamt of for that matter, in its remarkably broad tempi and its frequent departures from Brahms’s dynamic indications. I cannot say I am in total agreement with Mr Gould’s conception. And this raises the interesting question, what am I doing conducting it? [LAUGHTER]
I am conducting it because Mr Gould is so valid and serious an artist that I must take seriously anything he conceives in good faith, and his conception is interesting enough so that I feel you should hear it too.
But the age-old question still remains, in a concerto, who is the boss? [LAUGHTER] The soloist or the conductor?
The answer is, of course, sometimes one sometimes the other depending on the people involved. But almost always the two manage to get together by persuasion or charm or even threats to achieve a unified performance. I have only once before in my life had to submit to a soloist’s wholly new and incompatible concept and that was the last time I accompanied Mr Gould [LAUGHTER]. But this time the discrepancies between our views are so great that I feel I must make this small disclaimer.
So why, to repeat the question, am I conducting it? Why do I not make a minor scandal and get a substitute soloist or let an assistant conduct it?
Because I am fascinated and glad to have the chance for a new look at this much-played work; because, what’s more, there are moments in Mr Gould’s performance that emerge with astonishing freshness and conviction; thirdly, because we can all learn something from this extraordinary artist who is a thinking performer; and finally, because there is in music, what Dmitri Mitropolous used to call, the sportive element, that factor of curiosity, adventure, experiment, and I can assure you that it has been an adventure this week [LAUGHTER] collaborating with Mr Gould on this Brahms Concerto, and it is in this spirit of adventure that we now present it to you.” [APPLAUSE]
Tony
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2010-09-26 18:47
Is it an "age-old" question? I think the conductor for the most part defers to the soloist. I speak in general terms here. Mr Berstein himself deferred in this case. Making a disclaimer is interesting and perhaps educational but I feel it would affect the audience's reaction to the performance. The comments seem to convey a positive attitude towards Gould's interpretation but in reality they only refer to moments along the way.
My favourite Gould is his Bach. He does not listen to other performers and doesn't try to pay hommage to Bach. He makes music that is impersonal in the best sense of the word. It is spontaneous and breathes. He went into recording sessions many times without a set game plan. There were many tempi going through his head and different approaches. Once he started it evolved.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-09-27 13:48
I like that speech and I like Bernstein's compromise. He was right not to endorse something with which he disagreed, but I think he was also right not to try to censor it. The compromise didn't hurt Bernstein's reputation, did it?
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Simon Aldrich
Date: 2010-09-27 14:21
Barry asked, "If one desired to do an authentic 'baroque' performance on say an Oboe or Flute , wouldn't you have to have a baroque Oboe or Flute."
Most would say yes.
"The modern instruments are entirely different, louder for starters."
And possessing a sound quality which, by its independent and differing nature, invites a different approach to playing the instrument.
"Is there such a thing as a 'Baroque' Clarinet ?"
Absolutely. For photos of a reproduction of a 2- and 3-keyed baroque clarinet see:
http://www.sfoxclarinets.com/Baroque_C_D.html
A great reference for these instruments is Albert Rice's book, "The Baroque Clarinet".
------------------------------------------------------------
Simon Aldrich
Clarinet Faculty - McGill University
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre Metropolitain de Montreal
Principal Clarinet - Orchestre de l'Opera de Montreal
Artistic Director - Jeffery Summer Concerts
Clarinet - Nouvel Ensemble Moderne
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-09-28 13:12
>>I can't say that the Brahms Concerto #1 is one of my favorites. The opening in particular is like Juggernaut's Car, crushing everything before it.
>>
And that's a bad thing? ;-)
Though I'd have a terrible time trying to make one of those "ten best" lists, my personal favorite ten pieces would include the two Brahms piano concertos, especially the performances by Leon Fleischer with Szell and Cleveland.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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