 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2009-12-03 20:42
I was listening to the radio recently and heard a saxophone solo I wasn't familiar with, the "Saxo-Rhapsody" of Eric Coates. It was very pleasant music, and the sax playing was excellent. I wondered who the soloist was, and was surprised to learn that it was none other than Jack Brymer. I had always enjoyed his clarinet playing, but I had no idea that he was also so outstanding on the saxophone.
Many of us also play sax, but I wonder how common it is for a classical player to make solo appearances and record on both instruments. Is Brymer the only one who has done this, or are there others?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2009-12-03 21:01
Eddie Daniels recorded classical/legit and jazz clarinet and jazz tenor sax.
Of course, no jazz doubling thread would be complete without mentioning Benny Carter (alto sax, trumpet)
...GBK
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2009-12-03 22:21
Jack Brymer was also the leader of a saxophone quartet for some years, I think it was the Krein (Klein?) quartet and he took over when Michael Krein retired.
This quartet was a regular broadcaster on the BBC in years gone by.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-12-03 22:57
He also continued his sax playing in the LSO. I believe it's him playing the solo in the Old Castle from Pictures at an Exhibition.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-12-03 23:42
Wonder if he ever played alto in any recordings of the L'Arlésienne suites?
(ISP in HUDDERSFIELD? Ee by gum young feller me lad!)
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-12-04 13:05)
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-12-04 00:05
Quite possibly Chris P. Roy Jowitt told me once that Jack would play sax nearly every time it was required
Peter Cigleris
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2009-12-04 00:20
Jack Brymer also did a magnificent job on Facade of William Walton which has saxophone featured as well. I also play saxophone freelance as well and think all clarinetists would do well to play the saxophone too. I believe John J. Moses and Hank Lehrer are also doublers as well..so I do think knowing how to play and teach the saxophone very useful.
David Dow
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-12-04 11:29
And thanks again to GBK for so generously sending me Jack's tribute to Benny Goodman which I appreciate more with each hearing. Perhaps the group Jack played with was the one with Harry Krein the leader who played accordion?
Bob Draznik
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Author: graham
Date: 2009-12-04 21:33
I heard him live in the Coates in Sheffield in the early 80s. It was fabulous. One of the best performances of anything I have ever heard.
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2009-12-05 15:10
Yes, I too play the Saxophone, & have since High School. I also play Flute, and all the "toys" necessary here in NYC to cover the commercial work & also many of the Broadway show requirements.
To name just a few great Clarinet players who also play(ed) the Saxophone:
Herbert Couf: Detroit Symphony
Larry Combs: Chicago Symphony
Ron Ruben: Philadelphia Orchestra
Peter Simenauer: former NY Philharmonic
Vincent "Jimmy" Abato: NYC Met Opera
Brymer's Saxophone playing is exquisite, he's great! I'm sure we could all list a page of great Clarinet player who are all fine Saxophone artists.
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: vin
Date: 2009-12-05 19:03
Add Tom Martin of the Boston Symphony to JJM's distinguished list. He's unbelievable at both.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-12-05 23:24
I'm not sure which orchestra has recorded a gem of 'An American in Paris' - possibly Boston Pops (I can't find any clips of it that have the prominebt sax parts in), but the alto playing in that is something special. Just the right sound and style for it - I presume the saxes have done time with Big Bands to have that sound.
It's all very well to have a 'nice' sax sound, but sometimes it pays off to 'get dirty'. With any playing - clarinet or sax - I think it's well worth having a diversity in playing styles instead of sticking firmly to just the one style.
A while back I did a concert with a rock band, and the alto player was firmly in the classical idiom (or an idiot). He played rock riffs in such an academic and polite (stiff) manner it was like having Marcel Mule playing it (though at least Marcel Mule can play in tune unlike this so-and-so!). The feeling was not there, and he didn't even try and just tootled away in the same way he'd play Debussy. Now I like Debussy, but that wasn't even in context of what we were doing.
I cut my teeth playing sax in Big Bands, so I've developed the sound and playing style that's associated with it, being a fan of Count Basie and similar bands, but I can play 'straight' if I have to, though still use the same set-up playing in an orchestral setting as I use in Big Bands (Lawton 7*BB on alto) as that's what I'm used to playing on.
I tried a Selmer S90 mouthpiece and found it very restrictive, so I put my Lawton back on and did L'Arlesienne on that - even had compliments from the principal flautist who can't stand saxes which was an honour, as well as the old ladies in the violin section. The conductor said after my solo in the 1st movement of the suite - 'Right - let's do some Kurt Weill!'
But generally I think being versatile with both doubling and playing styles on each instrument you double on is beneficial if you want to get a variety of work. You can't play clarinet in 'Fiddler on the Roof' played dead straight - the whole feeling would be lost.
Jack Brymer's sax playing wouldn't be out of place in a dance band from the '30s-'40s - and maybe he might have even done some dance band work.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-12-05 23:46
Chris P,
In Jack's book, From Where I Sit he talks about playing in little jazz groups to make money on the side during the war and on weekends when he was a teacher.
He played clarinet in other groups with some of these players until he was recommended to Beecham. The rest we say is history...
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2009-12-06 00:26
If I remember correctly, I think I read that Brymer actually started his career as a Physical Education instructor for a boys high school, well before his clarinet/sax career.
He did a good deal of popular music playing during this time. I think it was some good fortune, his talent and hard work, and Thomas Beecham that put him front and center.
But perhaps one of you Limeys can correct me if I am wrong.
In any case, stop the back patting.
Any decent clarinetist should be able to double the bass clarinet, the basset horn, and then as an extension the alto saxophone.
It does not take any real talent to do this.
Just flexibility and perhaps the need to make a living.
Flute is a different matter and those of you that have put in the time to do this to any professional level should take a bow.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-12-06 08:59
Peter, glad to know my assumptions were right - definitely sounds like he's done time in Jazz groups in that era.
Although flute was the first instrument I played, it isn't my strongest doubling instrument. I'd say in order from strongest to weakest, my instrument doublings are - saxes (satb), oboe (+d'amore/cor), clarinet (Eb/Bb/A/basset horn/bass), flute (+picc/alto/bass) and bassoon (I prefer contra).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2009-12-06 12:18
Dileep,
Please don't refer to us as Limeys. This is not the 1940s and we are not suffering from scurvy.
I have to say it's kinda offensive. I think people on this board would take offence if we referred to the users (of which the majority is US based) as Yanks or some other derivative.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: justme
Date: 2009-12-06 13:05
Chris P:-,
Is your listing correct on the order of your strongest doubling instruments in relation to oboe, d'amore and E.H? In other words, you're better on oboe than on E.H or d'more?
Also, oboe is easier for you than bassoon?!
You also forgot to mention Baroque oboe d'amore, etc. LOL.
Just curious...
Just Me
http://woodwindforum.ning.com/
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-12-06 13:43
I definitely prefer playing cor and oboe d'amore over oboe anyday, but I listed the main family groups of the instruments in the order of strongest to weakness.
Baroque oboe/d'amore is much harder than modern Gillet conservatoire instruments - only yesterday I was playing Baroque d'amore and it hasn't got all the gadgets that we rely on now, so tuning and hitting upper register notes isn't as easy.
I do find oboe/cor easier than bassoon as I haven't played much bassoon since I packed it in when I was 12 (to do sax instead), but have come back to it more recently for another go.
So if it's a definitive list for each instrument in each group, then I'd say (strongest-weakest in main categories from top to bottom, individual instruments in each category from left to right):
Saxes - bari, alto, soprano, tenor
Oboes - cor, d'amore, oboe
Clarinets - Bb/A, basset horn, bass, Eb
Flutes - alto, concert, bass, piccolo
Bassoons - contra, bassoon.
I'd have loved to have heard Jack Brymer playing oboe (though he never did) - I can only assume he'd have played/sounded very much like Leon Goosens if he had done.
I may be presumptuous (again) but I don't think Jack Brymer would have ever wanted to do this sort of thing (though he may have given it a good go): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2A4DAcle-Q&feature=related And I'm not a fan of John Harle's playing either - not just in this, but generally.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-12-06 13:52)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-12-07 13:20
Oh, well, the Brits didn't mind being referred to as Limeys by the Yanks during the Lend Lease years.....and I don't mind being referred to as a Yank , just be sure you spell it correctly. Blimey, that Coates Sax piece is on Amazon UK...
Bob Draznik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-12-07 13:50
Now, was Geordie Jack with the Royal Scousers or the Brummies in this recording?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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