 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: DennisCheng
Date: 2007-02-24 09:06
I always have the habit of playing by hearing.
Now i'm trying to curb this bad habit. But i find it very difficult to count and play at the same time except for very simple rhythms. I just can't count and play at the same time for running notes or difficult rhythms.
What should i do to improve my counting?
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Author: John Stackpole
Date: 2007-02-24 13:13
This may be a big hurdle for some of us non-pros.
I know that when I try to play the notes and count the beats mentally ("one-and two-and...", &c) I find myself sort of "saying" the beats sub-vocally. But not completely sub-vocally - I detect my throat and mouth muscles trying to "say" the beat words. And this shows up in "micro-shifts" in my embrochure which in turn is distinctly audible in the notes I'm playing.
I suspect in "real" pros the mental counting is completely decoupled from any physical manifestation.
Is there any known training to help decouple thinking from (physically) counting or is it simply a (mental) talent that some have, and some don't?
JDS
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2007-02-24 13:49
There are "rhythm training" books out there with pages and pages of different rhythm patterns. I'd start there, practicing a few each day, until they're part of the "clarinet landscape."
As far as not having a physical manifestation of the counting, there is always a physical _sensation_ of the beat. There are not necessarily numbers attached to that. Much of playing the correct rhythm based on what's on the page is just repetition and recognition, same as fingering the correct note without thinking "That's a C and that's thumb, first finger, second finger, and third finger of the left hand." Same kind of mental shortcut which comes after spending time doing it...
And: Ultimately "counting" is not about counting the numbers and related syllables. It's about _feeling_ the correct rhythm internally and playing the notes in the places they belong.
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Author: Brenda ★2017
Date: 2007-02-24 14:07
I feel it's important to try counting when you're with someone who already does it well, i.e. a teacher or a percussionist. That way if you think you've done it right someone can confirm it. Otherwise how would you know if you're getting it, really?
Or, dance to some fantastic carribean or latino music with a strong beat! While teaching I've found that some people don't have an internal sense of rhythm and others do. For example, while teaching one student how to count, a visiting 3-year-old started to bounce up and down in time to the rhythm. We had a good laugh about that, but that's exactly what I wanted my student to internalize, to feel the beats as if she were dancing to them. Once you get the on beats, you can fill in the gaps with the off beats. Later you can move on to triplets, 16th notes, and variations of the above.
But having a teacher there beside you can reinforce the positive progress you're making and can help you overcome the mistakes.
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Author: DennisCheng
Date: 2007-02-24 15:13
so The best way to improve is to practise counting on different kind of rhythms?
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Author: John Stackpole
Date: 2007-02-24 15:24
Why am I not surprised that it all comes down to "Practice, practice, practice".
Ah well, no other directions to Carnegie Hall, and no free lunches, either.
![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
JDS
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2007-02-24 16:37
<<I always have the habit of playing by hearing.
Now i'm trying to curb this bad habit. But i find it very difficult to count and play at the same time except for very simple rhythms. I just can't count and play at the same time for running notes or difficult rhythms.>>
Dennis --
What you describe here sounds very much like what my husband experienced as he attempted to learn to sight-read, which I wrote about here:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=224932&t=224501
I believe that in the long run, your strong "ear" will benefit you as a musician. But before that happens, in order to read music well, you will need to learn to conceptualize and internalize the two-dimensional representation of music that appears on a page. This is a different skill set than whatever it is that comprises the ability to play "by ear".
To begin to learn this different skill set, you are going to have to swallow your pride, and acknowledge that you need remedial education. Take it back to square one. The beginner book, page one. Start there, learning to experience ("think" or "feel") the beat internally. Take it slowly. Very, very slowly. Be rigorously honest with yourself as to whether you are doing it or not. If you can't tell, ask someone who knows the difference to observe you. STAY THERE and don't go on until this first page becomes easy and automatic and always correct. When it does, turn the page and do the next lesson.
This is exactly what my husband did. Although I am sure it was not the most enjoyable experience he ever had, it has been a very successful and profitable one for him (and me!) musically. He was brutally honest with himself, and there were many times when he was frustrated with the process and how inexplicably difficult it seemed for him (he's a very capable and accomplished person). But when he came out the other end, he was a changed musician. And, in the whole scheme of things, it really didn't take him all that long to get there -- just a few months.
After mastering the beginner book, he moved on to the Leon Lester "The Advancing Clarinetist" etudes (very nice), and started playing against a Music Minus One CD that I got him (another good way to keep yourself honest).
I am delighted to report that, at this stage, he is able to sit down with me and play straight through all of the Mozart "Twelve Duets" and "Eight Menuets" with a great deal of musicality, and absolutely NO rhythm or counting issues. Only seven months ago, he could not even get through one of those after a week of trying hard, with help.
We're moving onward and upward into dotted rhythms and syncopation and maybe even the Rose Etudes now! But the really good news is, once the basics of the internalized pulse are in place, the progress goes forward geometrically.
This is one of those "just do it" situations.
Susan
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-02-24 20:26
Maybe I'm just a little simple, but I don't really see the need to count. Rythm IS the length of the sound you're playing.
I had a teacher who noticed that I had uneven rythm. He asked me to play a quarter note. After I played the note, he then asked me if I could remember how long that note was that I just played, and if I could, just play it again. He then went on to say that that note will be the same length even after I go out to lunch, have a sandwich and come back later that afternoon.
This was a revelation to me and from that point on I have had even rythm and I never counted again, save for figuring out some complete mess of a measure that I have to sit down and figure out BEFORE I start to play.
.................... :-) Paul Aviles
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2007-02-25 10:26
I would suggest setting aside a segment of your practice time to devote to "time". 1. If you can, buy a metronome and a recording device. Some people record themselves while they practice with the metronome. You then can listen more objectively to how you are doing. How you practice with the metronome is important. . Ask people how they work with a metronome.
2. Counting is a pulse. In practice you should establish the pulse first and then start playing. You can get your tempo from the music. If there is a difficult section in the music get the tempo/pulse from there. Start feeling the pulse a bar or even two bars before you begin playing. If you choose music that is difficult for you it might be necessary to overdo the pulse. Make the tap of the foot for example more like a stomp. If that doesn't work move the instrument up an down as you play. Once you can get through the music then downplay the instrument movement and foot movement.
3. If keeping track of the beat number is important try this. In 4/4 time alternate left and right foot tapping. Left is one Right two Left 3 Right 4. Practice very simple exercises with this. If you get good at this you will probably not mistake 3 for 4 or 1 for 2. This can help a little and this approach also gets you simulating a march like step.
4. Sing . Practice singing the music and keeping time. Don't worry too much about getting the pitches ..focus on rhythm and counting.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-02-26 10:26
Foot tapping helps. Stomping if it's really serious. Also, marking each beat on the music. (I've just been doing that for a figure in 'Ordinary Fool' from Bugsy Malone, which is easy to replicate by ear but an absolute pig to decipher from the score.)
For really difficult rhythms, try slowing everything right down and counting(e.g.) semiquavers (=16th notes US, I think). You might be playing at quarter speed or slower, but it'll get the rhythm down, and then gradually you can speed it up. It's like reading: when you're good you can read whole words, but when you're learning you have to read each letter.
For quintuplets and other evilness, again slow everything down, to a speed at which you can count 'one-two-three-four-five' in your head and make it fit your foot stomps.
Finally, if it's rests and syncopation, I seriously recommend playing each rest as a 'sniff' :-)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2007-02-26 17:16
I should add that the Dr. Beat metronome might be a good investment. It gives metric divisions so that you know when you drop a beat. This is a good practice tool.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2007-02-26 18:31
<<I should add that the Dr. Beat metronome might be a good investment>>
I agree that Dr. Beat is a great (and fun!) metronome.
But it also seems to me that when you are dealing with auditory learners like Dennis (originator of this thread) or my DH, listening to the metronome is not going to get them much farther than listening to their stand partner, or whomever/whatever else it is that they are leaning on. These folks are trying to hear it first, and then think it. They've got to get to the point where they think it first, and then hear it.
Something that I believe really did help my husband a lot was, believe it or not, learning to notate a piece of music in Finale. It took him just this side of forever to get the first piece done (a four-page baroque thing, full of all sorts of subdivided notes, dots, and suspensions), but once he did it, he seemed to have a much better grasp of the relationship of the note values within a bar than he had previously had.
I think the "magic" here was that he HAD to THINK it -- he couldn't default to his (preferred) auditory processing style.
Susan
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Author: Meri
Date: 2007-02-26 18:34
Get yourself a good pianist or a fellow clarinetist and sight-read some music.
Duets are one of the easiest ways to develop rhythm. Some band methods have very easy duets you could even play with someone who plays a different instrument.
Meri
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-02-26 18:49
My counting nightmare are those interspersed pairs of dotted quarters in a 3/4 waltz rhythm...
--
Ben
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2007-02-26 20:00
I'm not sure understand what an "auditory learner" is. My point about using a metronome is that with repetitive use it imprints an imaginary pulse that is the framework for rhythm. I would suggest alternating using the metronome and not using it. When you have it turned off try to imagine you are hearing and feeling the pulse. You can reinforce this with the tapping of a foot. It makes sense that martial/march music is a good starting point as the pulse is very strong.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: jane84
Date: 2007-02-26 20:48
Something that also might help is playing the scale exercizes in different rythms - 2 things at once! ![[happy]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley12.gif)
-jane
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Author: Chalumeau Joe
Date: 2007-02-27 00:42
As a "re-learner", I've found the following helpful:
1. Speed kills -- take your playing slowly, and you'll develop a better feel for counting/rhythm. (Your brain and eyes will have an easier time sync'ing up.) Increase your speed when you get comfortable
2. EarMaster Pro 5.0 -- (www.earmaster.com). Wonderful piece of software that has a nice rhythm training section; it's fairly inexpensive, too.
3. SmartMusic (www.smartmusic.com). This has been discussed quite a few times on this Board...highly recommended.
4. Lastly, keep tapping your foot! As simple as this sounds, it really helps.
Good luck!
P.S. I am not affiliated in any way with either EarMaster or SmartMusic
Post Edited (2007-02-27 00:54)
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Author: joeyscl
Date: 2007-03-04 04:57
Wow, I didn't realize people would have such trouble with Counting... Counting always came naturally to me. (My *REAL* problem is keeping track of the beat... My saying goes: The hardest part in any orchestra music is the 10 bars of rest... LOL)
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