 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ed Lowry
Date: 2011-02-22 23:53
Someone recently wrote on this list that the only note affected by resting the clarinet on one's knee is the lowest E. I find that resting the clarinet on or between the knees reduces wrist fatigue and seems (though I'm not certain) to allow for easier fingering because the hands are more relaxed.
Years ago, the view in athletics was to tough it out. We didn't get extra water on the athletic field, and played through the pain. As we've paid more attention to repetitive stress injuries and other types of fatigue, this macho view has gone out of favor. Can the same be said for playing a musical instrument?
And, if only one note is affected by resting the clarinet on one's knee, is there any downside to playing that way -- making sure, of course, to raise it for the one note that is affected?
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Author: Curinfinwe
Date: 2011-02-23 00:31
What about resting the bell on the knee during extended practice, to alleviate the wrist/thumb strain? After practicing for many hours, I have a lot of pain in my right hand, so I tend to lightly hold it between my knees. During lessons or performance, however, I don't do this. I've only recently realized that I actually do that. Would that be detrimental?
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Author: luca1
Date: 2011-02-23 01:40
Can't say it was a detriment to Robert Marcellus or Harold Wright, both convicted "knee men" ... and arguably the two prettiest tones in the business ....
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Author: charla
Date: 2011-02-23 01:46
I'm working on a double lip embouchure and it definitely helps to rest the bell on my knee. I find that I have a much easier time with high notes this way, and at my advanced age I doubt that it will matter a hoot.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-02-23 01:55
Also, look into getting a neckstrap. Definitely helps, inexpensive, and many pros use that as well.
Alexi
Retired, playing more sax than clarinet, but still playing clarinet and still loving it!
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Author: PrincessJ
Date: 2011-02-23 02:01
I usually do rest the clarinet on my knee when I'm tired and don't have a neck strap handy.
It doesn't hurt the tone at all, as a matter of fact it helps stabilize the tone when I work on double lip (agree - charla's post).
I find it difficult with a "longer" instrument (A clarinet, anything with a low Eb key, etc) given the fact that I like to hold the instrument in a more vertical position and have a short torso.
-Jenn
Circa 1940s Zebra Pan Am
1972 Noblet Paris 27
Leblanc Bliss 210
1928 Selmer Full Boehm in A
Amateur tech, amateur clarinetist, looking to learn!
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Author: hartt
Date: 2011-02-23 02:11
In her FSU Doctorate Ttreatise on Stan Hasty: His Life and Teaching, Elizabeth Gunlogson relates Hasty's use of the knee as a resting point for the bell.
He did not teach doing so, but had no objection to his students use of this practice. (He encouraged sitting and stressed..........ALWAYS a straight spine and often sitting on a chair's edge.
(posture, pg 112)
I've read her treatise and he also cautions against placing the bell between the knees as doing so tends to muffle the low E/F/F# (and 12ths) and also tends to make those notes go flat.
Due to a broken / fused neck, I have used the bell on knee posture. I've found the tonal quality / projection is influenced by where on the knee the bell is placed.
Ideally, the bell should rest just behind the kneecap.
now go practice,
dennis
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Author: clairmusic
Date: 2011-02-23 04:01
there is a device called a Fred that concects to the back of your thumb rest . it is like a post that has a adjustment screw that has goes from the thumb rest and the end rests on the chair. it takes all of the weight off your hand. and you fingers move much more freely., but there is no prob useing your knees. check out the Fred. quadlibet.com. based in Englewood Co.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-02-23 05:41
Quodlibet Fhred http://quodlibet.com/Index.php
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-02-23 13:45
I try not to rest my bass or contra clarinets on my knees. Hurts after a while. Looks weird too.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-02-23 17:10
If I am not mistaken I believe Robert Marcellus said that placing the bell in-between the knees brought the pitch of low "E" and "F" UP slightly (contrary to Gunlogson treatise).
Can anyone confirm or deny this???
...............Paul Aviles
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2011-02-23 18:24
As a long term (and aging) double lip player I have been resting the clarinet on my knee for probably 10 years now. I find it a great help especially when in altissimo, which seems to be a most of the time in concert band.
Some few years ago I built a little jig that clamps onto the bell and raises the bell about 2 inches above my knee to try and avoid any risk of muffled or flat tones.
It has a small padded rest to cushion the knee and I also incorporated a small sponge in the design to soak up any condensation and avoid need to put a hanky on knees to protect them.
I find it works a treat.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-02-23 22:46
Yes, I will sit at some distance to a strobe tomorrow.
I was just wondering if anyone else had any direct experience with MARCELLUS' take on pitch vs. knees.
.......................Paul Aviles
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Author: clarin-ed
Date: 2011-02-24 03:22
I just switched to not resting my bell on my knees recently. Resting it on my knees definitely helped with stability, but I found that after playing like that for a while, my embouchure would feel very unstable as I stood up to play. I now play pretty much all the time with the bell off my legs, as it is a way for me to keep my chops in shape for solo performances.
But I do use a neck strap all the time, which lifts some weight off my wrist.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-02-24 16:49
Some of this may depend on what kind of playing each of us does. A symphony clarinetist pretty much never has to perform standing unless he/she is playing a concerto or a solo recital. Even then, I've seen clarinetists sit for solo concert and recital performances. That becomes an individual issue for the performer. Clarinetists playing chamber music sit. A clarinetist in a small jazz group or the clarinet-leader of a big band would traditionally perform much more standing up.
I most of the time play with my clarinet resting on my right knee or holding the bell between my knees. When I play standing up I find myself more or less out of habit trying to lean over to do the same thing, although I obviously can't. But I no longer play recitals or concerti and consequently never need to stand while performing. The few times I've had short stand-up solos in symphonic arrangements of jazz material, the solo doesn't last long enough to cause an endurance problem.
Karl
Post Edited (2011-02-24 16:49)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2011-02-24 17:10
The good part is that it brings down the long B in the staff.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-02-25 06:48
IMO it doesn't really matter what any player did. Just knowing that others do it only means you might want to consider trying it yourself. If any0one is against it, it might help to know exactly why, and then try yourself to see if you find the same problems. That's probably what all the players mentioned here did. It's great to get ideas from other players, but they can't decide for you.
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Author: Tony Pay ★2017
Date: 2011-02-25 09:36
clarnibass wrote:
>> IMO it doesn't really matter what any player did. Just knowing that others do it only means you might want to consider trying it yourself. If anyone is against it, it might help to know exactly why, and then try yourself to see if you find the same problems. That's probably what all the players mentioned here did. It's great to get ideas from other players, but they can't decide for you.>>
YESSS!
(Could of written it meself:-)
Tony
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-02-25 12:11
I agree with you completely. There is some value, though, in knowing what recognized players do (did) or don't (didn't) do if only to counter the positions of teachers, of whom there are many, who adamantly insist to their students that certain habits (e.g. bells on or between knees) or techniques (e.g. double-lip, anchor-tonguing) cause loss of tone quality, poor rhythmic accuracy, loss of fluency, loss of hair, fleas and the ultimate destruction of the world as we know it. Knowing that performers who are respected players either currently or historically did these unspeakable things and managed to play well anyway won't necessarily validate doing anything one way or the other, but can *invalidate* the inflexibility of those teachers who promote absolutes that really aren't.
Karl
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-02-26 21:31
I'm at the next phase of army music school right now and the current clarinet instructor here sometimes plays with his bell between his knees.
So I went into a practice room and tried it out and it was a night and day difference to how I normally sound. I think it had something to do with the clarinet being more stable and so I'm not using my embouchure as another point to stabilize the clarinet. It was MUCH easier to play and sounded MUCH better.
I'm going to check with a tuner for all the notes and double check with the instructor if he notices a positive improvement in my sound as well. I also ordered a neckstrap to see if that also helps stabilize the clarinet allowing me to relax my embouchure, and relax overall.
Alexi
Retired, playing more sax than clarinet, but still playing clarinet and still loving it!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-02-28 04:21
>> Knowing that performers who are respected players either currently or historically did these unspeakable things and managed to play well anyway won't necessarily validate doing anything one way or the other, but can *invalidate* the inflexibility of those teachers who promote absolutes that really aren't. <<
In a way, yes, but some respected players also promote a lot of nonsense. There's no problem in finding out what anyone is doing and suggesting, as long as you don't automatically take it for granted and it doesn't come instead of actually thinking about it yourself and coming to your own conculsions!
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Author: infundibulum
Date: 2011-02-28 19:57
Talk about your Obsessive-Compulsive clarinet nerds ...!?!
Just do whatever makes you sound the best throughout
the performance.
I suggest that crossing one's legs to cradle the bell might
be going a bit too far, but beyond that, one should pay
more attention to things like diaphragm breathing and
other projection techniques.
And, if you're a soloist, you're usually standing up, right?
That's how I played ALL my lessons with Clark Brody.
And, of course, I also studied with Jerry Stowell, Fred
Ormand, and Robert Marcellus.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-02-28 22:01
Marcellus sat when I went to Severance Hall to hear him play the Mozart Concerto. This was in 1962 or maybe 1963. During the cadenza, he turned to face Szell, who conduced every note. Wonderful performance.
He was severely diabetic and had trouble with his teeth. Also, Moennig re-made his A clarinet by increasing the barrel length, moving the holes lower, shortening the bell and re-sizing the holes. This made the low E/B high, so Marcellus had to hold the bell between his knees. See http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/lookup.php/Klarinet/1999/05/000596.txt.
Ken Shaw
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