 The Doublers BBoard
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Author: Markael
Date: 2006-04-15 21:53
One of my students said that her band director (a French Horn player) informed the band that a Bb clarinet player who also plays bass clarinet is not really a doubler.
My response: "That's bull, and you can tell her I said so."
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Author: ClariTone
Date: 2006-04-16 02:29
From the teachers point of view, it isn't considered a double. The clarinet and bass clarinet to a non-clarinetist/woodwind player, are ALMOST the same instrument, with the obvious size difference. What with the near-identical fingerings, and a similair look/design, and all, not to mention the NAMES i.e. clarinet and bass clarinet.
Is your student at all bothered by this. Were they embarrassed by having the band director verbally announce to the class that the clarinet/bass clarinet players aren't doublers? If not, then I don't see that big of a problem. Perphaps try having the student explain to the teacher, but if the teacher persists, let it go.
Clayton
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Author: BornAgainClarinetist
Date: 2006-04-16 09:25
well... as an extremely expierence bass clarinetist, I can tell you that now playing principal flute in an orchestra to playing principal clarinet is much more different than going from principal clarinet to bass clarinet.
The way you connect with with similar instruments within a family is totally different from clarinet-oboe oboe-flute flute-clarinet or whatever.
Also I could be a very not talented doubler because for me to really get in touch and have a true feeling (beyond fundamentals) I need to play one instrument much more frequently than another.
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Author: Markael
Date: 2006-04-16 09:37
No, the student is not particularly bothered by this because she likes the teacher, but she does realize first hand that there difficulties which present themselves when one takes up bass clarinet.
Actually this student “officially” takes piano lessons from me, but in the beginning she took both piano and clarinet lessons for a while. She moved from out of state and wanted to be prepared to play in band. Sometimes she brings the bass clarinet to work on band music instead of piano music.
The teacher was comparing the clarinet - bass clarinet combination to another combination. If I remember correctly, it was something like alto sax – bari sax.
Perhaps we’re just dealing with semantics here, but I still don’t like it.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2006-04-17 11:43
I'm only an amateur and some of my information may be out of date, but I have the impression that unionized pit musicians get paid a stipulated amount extra per instrument (whether the instruments belong to the same family or not) and that they refer to themselves as doublers even if they're doubling on different sizes of the same thing. (Marginally relevant: One of those big band comedy acts in Days of Yore performed a number called, "I'm Looking for a Man Who Plays Clarinet and Cornet and Wears a Size 37 Suit.") As you say, it may just be a matter of semantics, but the semantics might add up in dollars and cents. Anyhow, if this student plays the piano, then she's a doubler, whether or not she doubles in the band with the director who says that different sizes of clarinet don't make a doubler.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: johnsonfromwisconsin
Date: 2006-04-17 20:16
I would not consider a clarinet -> bass clarinet player a doubler from a purist perspective. Some unions might consider it a double for the purpose of pay, but besides for adjustments in embochure and air support, I don't think you can count it a true double.
-JfW
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2006-04-17 21:32
I also concur that the same family of instrument isn't truly a doubler. I never thought of myself (nor anyone else for that matter) when going to school that playing soprano, alto and tenor sax as a tripler. It's just saxophone. Same regards to soprano and bass clarinet (or alto or sopranino for that matter). But playing clarinet and sax is a doubler (or flute, trumpet, etc.)
And what's the difference between a trumpet and cornet ? Or how far can we stretch it .. if I bring a Bb & A clarinet is that doubling or two Bb soprano clarinets for that matter?
For union people I think they would want to get paid for how many instruments, not necessarily "doubling" aspect. It helps pay for the instruments costs. But that's just a guess.
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2006-04-17 22:58
Ok, for those who think that playing a bass clarinet when playing soprano clarinet is not doubling, I ask you this: If you had not ever tried a bass clarinet, and you were given a bass clarinet to play, one that even was perfectly set up, do you think you could simply walk on stage and play it at performance level? Ditto for saxes of different sizes, even alto and tenor.
Steve Epstein
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Author: ClariTone
Date: 2006-04-17 23:47
Yeah, but a soprano clarinetist would sure have a hell of an easier time playing bass clarinet at "performance level" than say bassoon, oboe, flute, or saxophone. I would say, for union purposes yes a player could be considered a doubler if he/she played both soprano and bass. However, for any other venue I'd say no, because both are too similair. With the near-identical fingerings, same design/look, similair tone, etc. Both are in the same family, and even have the same name. The only major difference is size. Period.
Clayton
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2006-04-18 02:31
I think in the end the ppl that think it is doubling won't change their minds and the ppl that think it isn't doubling won't change their minds.
FWIW, first time i played bass clarinet was in a performance situation, but everyone knew i could handle it. just warmed up a bit and played - their bass cl got sick or something. - mpc was larger like a tenor sax, fingering like a clarinet.
but it was not a solo performance situation - just a concert that needed a bass clarinet.
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: Markael
Date: 2006-04-18 02:35
Well, I asked for your opinions, didn’t I? Having done that I don’t want to dominate the thread by belaboring my own opinion. Still, please indulge these two observations:
1) If I’m not a true doubler by playing both soprano and bass clarinet, then that more or less takes the thrill out of this new bulletin board.
2) There has been much discussion on the clarinet board from people who play both clarinet and bass clarinet, about the similarities and differences between the two instruments and the typical problems that players face. I would like to hear some of the regular posters to weigh in on this subject of defining doubling. I wonder what would be the best way to get their attention?
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Author: my58vw
Date: 2006-04-18 08:27
There is another issue with your arguements...
oboe and english horn (or oboe d amore)
A person who plays there two instruments at the same time (i.e. in orchastra I play 2nd oboe for a piece and EH for another) is a doubler... EH and oboe while they have the same fingerings (different key) are played so different it is quite increadable really. It really takes some air volume to play EH, but using that much on an oboe would overblow it. It is quite hard to pick one up after playing oboe or vice versa... trust me I know.
I am not sure if clarinet to bass clarinet is the same, and it is really up to the "clarinetist" to decide that. Now if someone what playing the contraclarinet and suprano clarinet I would definitly call them a doubler... just as I would call a french horn player playing euphonium or trombone that...
It is all in the mind really!
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Author: johnsonfromwisconsin
Date: 2006-04-18 18:59
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Ok, for those who think that playing a bass clarinet when playing soprano clarinet is not doubling, I ask you this: If you had not ever tried a bass clarinet, and you were given a bass clarinet to play, one that even was perfectly set up, do you think you could simply walk on stage and play it at performance level? Ditto for saxes of different sizes, even alto and tenor.
Steve Epstein
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There is a flaw to that logic: If one were to move from a S80 C* to a wide open berg mouthpiece for the first time, I don't think anyone could walk on stage and play at a performance level the first time either. So does having fundementally different mouthpieces in your case make you a doubler as well?
One could also make the reasoning that even changing from one Bb clarinet to another could take some adjustment time for peak effect. Also not doubling.
-JfW
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Author: Steve Epstein
Date: 2006-04-19 06:01
______________________________________________________________
One could also make the reasoning that even changing from one Bb clarinet to another could take some adjustment time for peak effect. Also not doubling.
-JfW
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I've never played bass clarinet (blew into one a few times, that's all) but I've been fooling around with an alto clarinet for about aa month and a half. The weight, the key feel, the response, the embouchure; all different. If you want to split hairs, let's say that playing an instrument in the same family is a close double, playing one in related families (e.g., clarinet / other non-clarinet woodwinds) a distant double, and completely unrelated families (e.g., clarinet / marimba) an unrelated double. Now we can argue about the closeness of related doubles (e.g., clarinet / sax vs. clarinet / oboe) and fill this board up with posts a lot faster than the ethnic clarinet board when it first started.
But alto clarinet is a very different instrument than soprano clarinet. Otherwise, why have separate auditions (for those positions for which there are auditions) when say, the bass clarinet spot opens up in an orchestra? OTOH, changing from a C* to a Berg is your business. There is a difference between equipment and instruments. OTOH, you still have to get used to it. And if there is such a difference in your example, maybe they are two different isntruments: sax vs classical sax. Some people seem to think so.
Steve Epstein
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-04-19 15:51
Markael,
As I wrote to you offline, many doublers (defined however you like) who believe they 'play' bass clarinet or saxophone just fine, actually sound awful.
I would define a "doubler" as anyone who plays one or more secondary instruments (even within the same family) with a certain amount of competence.
Really good doublers (e.g. John Moses) sound so good on their 'secondary' instruments that nobody in the audience would suspect they were not their 'primary' instruments.
I feel that even within the same family there are primary and secondary instruments -- as I already noted, many primarily-soprano clarinetists sound terrible or have great difficulty playing bass clarinet, and I've heard many alto or even tenor saxophonists struggle mightily with playing bari sax, or to a lesser degree, soprano sax. Instruments within the same family are no doubt easier to make initial headway on for a new doubler, but in the end it can be nearly as much effort for someone to sound really good on a secondary instrument in the same family, as for someone coming in from a different family altogether.
My personal experience is a bit backwards from most people -- my primary instrument has been the BASS clarinet since I switched to it back in junior high school, and about 15 years ago I realized that my SOPRANO clarinet playing was embarrassingly bad in comparison, so I spent 5 solid years working hard on my soprano clarinet chops to get them up to par. Also, I started playing sax on tenor rather than alto, and quickly picked up baritone (my second 'primary' instrument nowadays), but similarly found my alto and soprano chops inadequate and so I had to work hard on those to get them up to speed.
My flute playing is still so bad that I make real flautists cringe whenever I play -- but at least I'm aware of how bad I sound! Many doublers, unfortunately, have no idea how crappy they play their secondary instruments. I seem to get stuck playing shows with such people frequently, just my luck....
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2006-04-19 17:55
I experience a learning curve any time I take on a new size of a familiar instrument. I use a different embouchure for Eb and Bb soprano clarinet and a vastly different embouchure for Eb contra-alto. The size of the mouthpiece alone unavoidably puts the lips and tongue in a new position and alters the shape of the inside of the mouth, too. The difference between Bb soprano and Bb bass saxophone is enormous--I don't think anybody accustomed to soprano could just pick up the bass for the first time and play it well right away, or vice-versa. Until I learned to relax my embouchure to the point where I'd be squealing like a pig on soprano clarinet, I was playing "unintentional altissimo" on bass sax.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-04-19 18:47
An interesting discussion, I go with Dave S on what I believe is a workable and all-inclusive definition. I regularly play both alto and bass cls in band, on sop occasionally, play saxes for repairs and did play oboe/EH on back in orch. I also think that "doubler" covers all of our sins, claiming 6 or more would require some explanations !! PM thots, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Sage
Date: 2006-04-20 00:13
I consider a doubling when you go out of the TYPE of insturments, such as playing a clarinet, its still a clarinet, even though you have to adjust air and embouchure, its same fingerings, same basic things. However going from sax to oboe, as i have, is different.
"The band does not play at football games, the band graciously allows football to be played during their outdoor concerts." -Unknown
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Author: pmgoff78
Date: 2006-04-20 00:49
I'm now playing Soprano (Bb and A), Alto, Bass, and a little Contra.
I suppose I'm a doubler, but not in the "traditional" sense of the word.
I do: Use a different embouchure(slightly) on each Clarinet
Play them in ensembles.
Play Alto Sax literature on Alto Clarinet(IOW, I take it seriously(I know, I'm diseased.))
Play solo lit. on Bass Clarinet.
Teach all Clarinets.
I do not: Play instruments from different families.
So, I am.....but I'm not. You know?
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Author: Kchui999
Date: 2006-04-21 02:15
I play Eb, Bb, A, Bass, and Contrabass clarinet, as well as soprano, tenor, and bari sax, and bassoon. I consider myself a doubler whenever I'm playing two or more instruments in a performance. Isnt that what doubling means? to play DOUBLE the instruments? I dont know wether its arrogance or ignorance, or maybe french horn players are just jealous that they hardly get to double, but anyone who plays two DIFFERENT instruments in a performance, no matter how "similar" they may be, is a doubler.
Clarnibass, you can argue as much as you want, but soprano clarinet is kinda sorta DEFINITELY NOT similar to bass clarinet. Thats like saying bassoon is similar to string bass because both have "bass" in their name.
~chui
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Author: ClariTone
Date: 2006-04-21 19:06
Kchui999
I believe you were talking to me as clarnibass hasn't yet posted to this particular thread. I disagree with your analogy considering that clarinet and bass clarinet are members of the same family whereas bassoon and string bass aren't even remotely connected (with the possible exception of range). I was speaking from the standpoint that they ARE indead similair as to the points of fingering, shape, design, etc. I wrote "With the near-identical fingerings, same design/look, similair tone, etc. Both are in the same family, and even have the same name. The only major difference is size. Period." However, if it truly means that much to you guys, then welcome soprano/bass clarinet doublers!!!
FYI this is a sincere comment, not sarcasm. Bashing is not necessary...
Clayton
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-04-22 01:26
Clayton, for what it's worth, my clarinet teacher (we're talking 30 years ago, I must point out), who was an excellent soprano clarinetist, ex-Army Field Band, could not play a SINGLE NOTE of bass clarinet. I mean that....I was taking lessons mainly on bass clarinet, and the few times he tried to play my instrument, all he could get was a squeak. So perhaps bass and soprano clarinets are a bit different, eh what?
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Author: Kchui999
Date: 2006-04-22 02:09
Bass clarinet requires a similar embrochure to clarinet, and most cannot get a sound out of it becuase a lot of bass clarinet necks go straight into your mouth at an almost 90 degree angle, making it really ahrd to get an even acceptable sound. My friend uses the bay necks, which completely correct the problem, and I just try to angle the thing so that i can blow into it correctly. Either way works.
Clarnibass:
Sorry for mistaking your name, and I am incredibly sorry if you think that I was "bashing" you. That was certainly not my intent and i never mean to bash anyone. I was simply trying to make a point.
~Chui
And yeah....they're different
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2006-04-22 12:29
Lelia,
(off topic)
"I'm not surprised that French horn players don't double much. They've got their lives full just coping with that fiendish instrument!"
Do you ever wonder how the french horn was designed around a circle. Years ago they were straighter. But in one band one FH player was so awful that the director wrapped it around his neck, thus the circular FH was born.
Not really, but i thought it sounded funny.
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2006-04-23 23:46
here's someones description of doubling as they break it down on doubling of primary-to-primary and primary-to-secondary.
http://www.purtle.com/maryallyeb_articles_doubling.html
gotten from my good friends at SOTW and their discussion.
http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=38516
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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