 The Doublers BBoard
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Author: kfrank1
Date: 2007-03-07 18:54
I will be playing 2nd Reed (alto sax, clarinet, flute, piccolo(optional)) in a musical called Gypsy. Is anyone familiar with this? I already posted this on another site but thought I would post here as well.
They cut the original instrumentation in the score by half due to budgetary constraints. So I may have to add tenor and bari sax to cover some missing parts. Also I've just been told not to practise the Overture and the Entr'Acte as some of that will be cut.
The main thing I've noticed so far is that the music is hand written and is not the clearest manuscript writing I've seen, so is hard to read in the ledger lines or busy parts. Also a lot of the music is double-staved where they have parts doubled for clarinet or flute, so is kind of small to read.
Another possible issue is having enough time to switch instruments, as I typically handle my horns with kid gloves.
There will be 5 rehearsals followed by 5 performances over a weekend. Should be fun!
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-03-07 19:48
Five rehearsals before going into performance mode is pretty quick; hopefully your people will be up to the task. As there are quite a few blocking issues involved with the dance numbers ("The Right Girl", "Let Me Entertain You", "Gotta Have A Gimmick"), the last rehearsals with the cast tend to be long ones.
You need to buy a good (as in solid, not the cheapest one you can find) stand for your three instruments (and keep the octave flute on your lap). Avoid cheap here as you are safeguarding your horns, and heavier and more solid is better.
Gypsy is the only place on the planet that I have seen a written low A (with the octave indicated in parentheses) for the tenor sax. Stephen must have misplaced his orchestration book that evening...
There is a very prominent bass clarinet line in "Gotta Have A Gimmick" that should be included for it to sound right. There is also bass sax (in one or two numbers) in the Reed III or Reed IV (assuming the standard arrangement is what's being used.)
Someone will need to play a clarinet lick when 'Giaccamo And His Amazing Clarinet' is featured on stage. I used to use the oboe credenza from the opening of Saint-Saen's "Baccanalle" from the opera Samson et Delilah, just for the difficulty and timing issues for the actor on stage. But, I'm basically evil as hell.
(In one production, we varied it every night. That poor kid was probably totally flummoxed by "The Swan Of Tuonela" when I tossed it off the last night. Keep them on their toes, that's what I say...)
A better instrumentation would be one alto/clarinet/flute player and one tenor/clarinet/flute player, with a third addition being the clarinet/bass clarinet/bass sax. In this as in most other musical comedies, a bass clarinet is essential to accompany many of the female vocal numbers.
The show itself is pretty boring, with only two or three numbers worth the effort (unless, of course, you are getting paid - then it's all worth the effort). By the time you are done, you will be fed up to here with Mama Rose and her two annoying children, and you will be wondering why the husband didn't take off sooner.
There is one Ethyl Merman tune ("Everything's Coming Up Roses") that has page-spanning arpeggios played in seven flats. It has sounded like hell in every production that I've ever done, including the one pro one. If you have an A clarinet and can transpose, this is a good time to do it.
Horn swaps for a alto/tenor/clarinet/flute player should be no problem at all. You want a difficult swap, try going from baritone sax to bassoon in two bars of cut time some day.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: rcnelson
Date: 2007-03-08 12:05
Opening night of my 17th or 18th musical (I do believe I have lost track), is tomorrow night, March 9, a community theater production of MAME. In all but 3, I have had at least 2 if not 3 or 4 instruments to deal with. With MAME, I'm on Reed II with alto,flute,clarinet and bass clarinet. There are places where I have to stop a measure or 3 early in order to make the instrument switch. The hard part is making the embouchure and air stream adjustments between the horns. However, what I have discovered over the years is that a good warm up (and with this production of MAME, 25-30 minutes over the 4 horns) makes life a lot easier.
Terry's advice of getting a good stand is good and should be a requirement of every woodwind player in pit work.
Every Broadway book I have played has been hand-written. And don't expect every note to be right. The copy of Reed II of MAME had 4-5 errors that we corrected over this past week. All of them for the Bb clarinet and it was obvious that the copy person simply did not transpose it up a step from the orignal score.
You will find pit groups going with less people, particularly in the woodwind section. If you can find competent doublers, you can often cover the 4 or 5 parts with 2 or 3 people.
All this being said, I enjoy pit work as much or more than anything else in music. I believe the challenges of woodwind doubling are what draw me to it. SO...good luck and have fun with Gypsy.
Ron
Selmer Mark VI tenor (1957), Selmer Mark VII alto (1975)
Buescher True Tone soprano (1924), Selmer CL210 Bb Clarinet, Gemeinhardt 3SHB Flute, Pearl PFP105 Piccolo
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-03-08 14:34
I enjoy both the challenges presented by the music (although, with two current shows both calling for bassoon playing, there is such a thing as too much of a challenge) and with playing for vocalists.
It's also nice to know that you are performing in a venue where people actually want to come (and often, pay for it as well).
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2007-03-08 19:49
Ken, two of my horns got trashed during the run of 'Anything Goes'. We don't even know what happened the second time as the horn was just lying on the floor trashed. IT WAS MOSTLY BECAUSE OF A CHEAP INSTRUMENT STAND.
Get decent stands and then protect your instruments with your life. Suzy and I took turns taking breaks after the soprano sax was smashed. And it didn't help that the pit was sooo small.
When switching instruments I found to go to the baritone sax from any thing else was the most challenging. I practiced with my instructor and he gave me some pointers like heavy instruments on the right for a righty. To safely put down the tenor sax and grab up the bari sax took four to five bars depending on how fast the music was going. So where I could I'd drop off early or pick up late based on the importance of the part.
Terry didn't say enough about playing with singers. Don't follow the singer, you just give them an excuse to drag or speed up. Follow the band and/or director and the singer will figure it out.
I hope to do another pit orchestra this Spring and would love to know how you did protecting your cache of instruments and learning your parts. I am lucky in that the players of the Second Story Rep pit orchestra are all better players than I. It sure makes reading a part much easier when everyone else is spot on.
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
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Author: kfrank1
Date: 2007-03-09 01:14
Thanks for the tips.
For Gypsy we have two trumpets, one trombone, and two reeds (normally 5), plus keyboards, and drums.
Based on http://www.geocities.com/bpimentel/articles/shows.htm#gypsy,
Book 3 and 4 are clarinet/tenor plus optional instruments.
Book 5 is clarinet/bari plus optionals.
Post Edited (2007-03-09 01:18)
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-03-09 01:34
I'd go a bit further here and say to never follow a singer, unless you are playing a parallel solo (the violin bit in The Producers, for example). Always follow the conductor - yon and the rest of the group may be wrong, but you'll be wrong together.
Protecting your horns is simple - don't leave them out of your sight, and arrange yourself so that you are clear of alleyways and the like. In particular, watch out for 'cello players, who have a lot of instrument to move around and are not always careful when they turn around in place.
And, what goes for the musicians goes sevenfold for the actors and crew. I've seen a Frisbee sailed from the stage hit a clarinet on a peg and drop the horn to the concrete floor. I've seen a "semi-famous" actress (from the television end of things) literally destroy a Mark VI saxophone with a casual turn of her knee, only to say "Oh?" and walk on as if nothing had happened. (The theater's insurance picked up that one.) Others have no idea as to a) just how fragile our instrument stand setups are and b) just how much the horns cost. "I'm sorry" is nice, but it doesn't replace a favorite R-13.
My solution for the baritone is to mount the stand so that the bow of the horn is almost on the ground. I've used the old style of stands (where the bow is up six to eight inches, and found that I had to do a lot more lifting and controlled lowering as a result. With my baritone stand, I have to lift the horn (as all but the stupid rolling ones do), but I don't then have to control a foot or more of a descent while putting it into playing position.
Playing anything other than bass clarinet or bassoon, I can usually get the baritone on and the other horn racked in three bars of moderate time or so.
With the bass, it's a bit harder. I generally keep the baritone on my lap, play the bass off the peg "over" the baritone, and stab it into the stand to my right during horn changes.
With the bassoon, there's just no good way. I can't stand Fibercane reeds, so there's the wet reed problem. Clearing the bassoon from the seat strap (I don't use a neck strap - call me old fashioned, if you will) and getting the baritone hooked up can be very awkward. I have been able to (for short periods) put the bassoon on my lap, and then hook up the baritone. It's not what I want to do, though, and not very secure.
I always fear sax to sax exchanges, as you have altos and tenors going onto horn stands that are not all that positive (they rely on gravity and not being disturbed to hold their place). However, with this as with all else, it's a matter of practice.
If anyone is interested in my bulletproof horn stand, one that minimizes both risk to the horns and the amount of lifting and lowering for the baritone, drop me an email and I'll send you out the description and "how to" make one instructions, complete with photos.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: kfrank1
Date: 2007-03-30 22:58
I just finished the show without any mishap. As this was my first musical I asked the others what they thought of the pit. They said it was quite spaceous by comparison. I was surprised to hear that the pro pit in the 5th Avenue Theatre downtown was one of the most cramped, basically a long and very narrow room.
So there was no problem with any of my horns getting trashed. The pit was under the stage so we couldn't see anything, apart from a TV monitor where you couldn't get much of a detailed view anyway. We are supposed to be getting a video of one of the performances so that should be interesting.
I did notice my bass clarinet C#/G# key no longer closed during the last show. Maybe this had something to do with the fact that I was using a bari sax stand for it, which was also a bit scary.
A couple of things I need for next time would be a bass clarinet stand, a piccolo that is actually playable above high F, and a stand shelf to store piccolo, post-it notes, etc.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-03-31 00:23
You've got to balance utility with portability. Extra stuff like a stand shelf would be great to have, but that's one more thing you have to haul around with you, both into and out of the pit.
A good bass clarinet stand it essential, simply because the thing is so big and so frail. I use old stands that hold the bell, but they are no longer produced. The Koinig and Meyer stand holds things very well, but it's not that easy to transport.
I value the horns too much to use anything but a bulletproof approach. Since I have to use a cart in the first place, my custom combo stand's relatively heavy weight is no handicap; it just stacks on top of the rest of the cases on the Rock 'n' Roller cart.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Jaysne
Date: 2007-04-02 03:25
My only suggestion is not to try and play alto, tenor, and bari unless you have a lot of room in the pit. Even then, it will be a nightmare trying to move from one horn to the next gracefully. The bari part would probably be the least important--assuming you have a bass player--so that'd be the horn I'd forgo (and it's the biggest, so you'll end up with more room!).
Other than that, get used to reading the hand-written scores--they look worse than they really are. Have fun--show playing can be the most musically rewarding experiences of your life.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2007-04-03 15:04
I would disagree with choosing the baritone as being the saxophone to eliminate. Instead, I would opt for the tenor.
The reasoning goes something like this:
Baritone saxophone in shows is used three ways: as a saxophone choir member, as an additional trombone, and as the best blending of the bass instruments to "balance" out against everything else.
Tenor saxophone in shows is a bit more problematic. With the exception of the period piece musical that tries to channel the 1940's, it is not normally going to be a significant solo voice. Exceptions here might include Evita, where there is a huge tenor solo in the one true female ballad, but for the most part the tenor is just filling in an interior harmony part. And, that's pretty well it.
While the tenor (and the much more lyric style alto) will get used to "fill out" string parts at times, neither of them approaches the baritone in terms of overall utility.
Just this week I have been rehearsing a production of The Music Man, and it is almost scary to see just how much of that "Seventy Six Trombones" effect is coming out of the mouth of my baritone. While the bass trombone player is providing a portion of that "bottom", he's nowhere as agile or "plastic" as I can be on the baritone saxophone. Listening to the three trombones try to make up the seventy six trombone volume and spread by themselves is kind of fun by itself.
Two horns that I would keep as the last-ditch, not to be cut instruments (after the solo clarinet, flute and alto sax voices, would be bass clarinet (very vital, even more than the baritone, due to female vocal accompaniment) and baritone sax, in that order.
One other thing: if you can play (and have) a baritone and bass clarinet (in addition to the normal flute and clarinet), you are much more employable. Every year, I'm first pick for several musicals while my alto and tenor only buddies have to compete for their limited slots. Something to consider.
In all my years of doing shows (over thirty different shows, with many repeats within those thirty over the years), only once did I need to come up with tenor sax/clarinet skills to get through the doors. (Threepenny Opera; four or five different productions of same during the period). All of the rest of the time it has been mostly clarinet/bass clarinet/baritone, with occasional excursions to tenor sax, alto (to fill in a missing book), soprano (one time) or bassoon (more times that I care to think of, including two shows this spring).
When money starts becoming an issue, most musical directors look to cut the Reed III and IV books (in an five book show). Very often, that means the tenor saxophone/clarinet/oboe/Engish horn player sits that one out.
On the other hand, if you can handle both the oboe and English horn parts and can "get by on tenor and clarinet, you have increased your "desirability" ten-fold. In that, they will be more interested in your oboe/English horn skills than they will your saxophone skills.
One other thing: I've never seen a show that calls for alto clarinet. It's probably not a good idea to invest in one for pit work. Contra-alto, on the other hand, I have played in a couple of productions of On The Twentieth Century, and The Producers also foists this off on the baritone/bassoon/bass clarinet player.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Jaysne
Date: 2007-04-05 15:39
Terry, I see your point about not eliminating bari (although you wouldn't be playing favorites, now would you?). I think it depends on how the music is written. Sometimes the bari does a lot of doubling of the first alto, with solo work going to the tenor. In that case it would make sense to keep the tenor. But often the tenor gets a lot of the inner voices, which wouldn't make much sense if the instrumentation is severly curtailed. In that case it might be better to keep the bari as it can take the place of the t-bone and also the bass line.
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Author: davyd
Date: 2007-06-13 04:16
You'll be spending a lot of time with people in a tight space. You'll want to be at your most congenial. Friendships forged in the pit can last for years. An evening spent with an enemy can seem like a year.
Allow for bad traffic. For each instrument to set up, leave 5 minutes earlier than you might otherwise.
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2007-07-09 02:03
lots of great info here-i will add only one thing. for your saxes-use the mouthpeices that will allow you to play as softly as humanly possiable . selmer c* is highly recommended.
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Author: kfrank1
Date: 2007-07-10 14:43
Hmmm. I didn't find any need to play really soft on sax in this musical. I'm assuming you mean classical mpc's. Mine are all jazz.
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Author: wrowand
Date: 2007-07-10 17:42
WRT sax mouthpieces. I don't recommend the selmer C* for the following reason:
I play yamaha saxes and my S80 C* only seems to be able to play at A440 when it's pushed in all the way. This doesn't leave room to go up in pitch if the overall pitch of the ensemble goes up. Furthermore, when I play in a pit situation, I frequently have to pick up a cold horn and if the mouthpiece only plays at A440 when the horn is warmed up, I'll always be flat on a cold instrument. That's why I prefer to use a sharper mouthpiece for doubling.
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Author: kfrank1
Date: 2007-11-08 22:45
Quote:
There is a very prominent bass clarinet line in "Gotta Have A Gimmick" that should be included for it to sound right...
I remember the director gave me that part as well as rewriting a few other parts for bass clarinet.
Quote:
Someone will need to play a clarinet lick when 'Giaccamo And His Amazing Clarinet' is featured on stage. I used to use the oboe credenza from the opening of Saint-Saen's "Baccanalle" from the opera Samson et Delilah, just for the difficulty and timing issues for the actor on stage. But, I'm basically evil as hell...
I played Twinkle, twinkle little star since it was a little kid who was supposed to be playing badly. I remember I squeaked one time and the director smiled and gave me two thumbs up.
Haven't done any musicals since. I wish I could do more.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-11-18 19:04
Read backwards in your part to see which instruments you don't need as you get to the end of the performance, and note this down so you can put things away (quietly) as you go along - eg. if you don't need bari sax for the 2nd half, put it away during the interval. And if you no longer need flute or piccolo (or what-have-you), dry them out and put them away during dialogue between numbers.
This means less to mop out and put away at the very end of each performance, then you'll be all packed up earlier than normal and away before all the theatre lights go out (or at the bar earlier!).
But just make sure you DON'T put away any instrument that you'll need for the curtain call!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Gandalfe
Date: 2007-11-20 03:46
Suzy and I are almost done with a month run of 'A Chorus Line'. This will probably be the last show we do. There are always gigs missed because the pit orchestra takes up so much time. And we prefer the sax quartet, jazz combo, and jazz ensemble thing so much more.
I figured out how to get the bari sax to whisper without working so hard. I remembered something Terry said and tried a fibrecell reed and that did the trick. I really prefer the sound I get with a cane reed, but when you are trying to sound like a bassoon, the fibrecell works fine, especially at low volumes on the low Bb and A notes.
The dedicated bass clarinet stand is the only way to go. I had nary a slip and the stand was a solid platform for the instrument. Going from soprano clarinet to bass clarinet wasn't easy, both in juggling the instruments and adjusting the embouchure, but it got better as the show progressed.
Practicing with each instrument for 5 to ten minutes before the show really paid off. I can't count the times I found slipped springs/pins and such and was able to fix them before the show. I stopped using the tuner after the first show. It was obvious that the electric piano we used had problems and they never replaced the instrument.
Finally, you really have to be confident in your playing. And I don't mean just with the rhythm. I transposed a number of parts to fit the three instruments I was going to use. So I wasn't always sure whether an error was me, the transposition, even though I'd proofed, or the bass guitar hitting a wrong note next to me. Many times it was other instruments, but I'd mark my change and the next night I'd be wrong again.
There is no such thing as a perfect night, as far as I can tell. There are good nights, to be sure, but not perfect nights.
Jim and Suzy
Pacifica Big Band
Seattle, Washington
Post Edited (2007-11-20 03:49)
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