 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: jwiseman114
Date: 2007-12-06 20:21
Can anyone give me information or point me in the right direction as far as finding information on a Selmer Paris oboe. I know that they made quite a few of them and they seem to get mixed reviews. I'm just having a really difficult time in my internet searches.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-12-06 21:00
The ones I've worked on have had dreadful tuning problems, though they are well built.
But they did have a special mechanism for the D#-E (or Eb-Fb) trill which does away with the split plate for RH 3 found on full Gillet conservatoire system oboes. Raising RH finger 3 automatically closes off the Eb pad (provided the D#/Eb taken with the LH Eb key) through a linkage under the kidney keys.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: jwiseman114
Date: 2007-12-07 13:45
Chris,
Thank you for the information. You may know my friend Josh (New York musician/Julliard grad). I know that he is familiar with some of the Howarth finishers. He basically told me the same thing about the tuning issues and the fact that it is a well built horn.
I am a repairman and have been a finisher/tester in the past for the Selmer Co. (I know I know). I have never done the kind of work that you do and I hold the Howarth instruments, and you by association, in high esteem.
I am also a woodwind doubler (Sax/clarinet/flute) and bought this oboe for the purpose of delving into the possibility of learning the horn well enough to play some of the parts I encounter in the pit. I don't really believe that I will have enough practice time to produce a satisfactory tone but I believe it is also a worthwhile project regardless for my repair chops. I also have a bit of a love affair with Selmer Paris and own three Mark VI saxophones (alto/tenor/bari) and have three Recital clarinets (Bb/Eb/A) as well as a beautiful Bb BT era bass that I just acquired, restored, and love! I also bought this oboe because I didn't talk to you first or I probably would have found an old Mirafone or Gordet (similar price).
The oboe (Ebay) is turning out to be a bear. It had been cracked and poorly repaired without any pinning. I've pinned it and found a leaky post hole that I filled but am still not satisfied with the seal. I hope if nothing else, you do respond to my next set of questions. Do you have experience with voicing and do you think that it could be a viable approach to addressing the tuning problems that you speak of? Do you have any resources that would help me in this endeavor? I have a little experience and good resources for clarinet undercutting and tone hole manipulation but not with oboes. I don't mind using this horn as an experiment.
Thank you for the information on the trill mechanism. I had not seen one before and had not figured it out yet.
John Wiseman
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-12-07 20:12
With tuning, if the notes are sharp then filling the tonehole with hard wax (applied with a heated steel rod to the sides of the tonehole) will bring the pitch down, but the best thing to do is overfill it then remove the wax bit by bit until the note issuing from that tonehole is the correct pitch.
The best way is to remove all the keys, and plug the toneholes with Blu-tack and start from the lowest note and work upwards tuning them as you go. Flat notes are treated by opening the toneholes up, and there should be plenty of room to do this in the way the tonehole bedplaces are cut.
But remember to tune notes (all in the low register) such as low D with the C# tonehole closed, likewise with E with the Eb and forked F vent toneholes closed, F# with the F key tonehole closed, A with the G# closed and B with the Bb tonehole closed. If it has a low Bb bell vent (the small pad cup soldered to the bell key at it's lowest end), make sure this remains closed for every note except for low Bb.
It should be an alright instrument to begin playing on and to develop your sound and embouchure with, and well enough to do pit work on provided you know what to do to humour the tuning, but sooner or later you may find the tuning hard to get on with (unless you have sorted it out). The last one I rebuilt, I couldn't play a single scale in tune on it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-12-07 22:13)
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Author: jwiseman114
Date: 2007-12-07 21:33
Chris,
Thanks again. I am new to the board and spent some time today reading your posts. You are very knowledgeable and have a gentle approach with the novices such as myself. I actually found an old post of yours that dealt with some of my questions. Your answers are much appreciated and make perfect sense but of course they have created more questions.
I finished the oboe today, though it will still require some additional adjustments, and even with my rudimentary playing ability the tuning issues were quite noticeable (painful). I do think the horn has a more than acceptable tone. It is not terribly bright and has a nice resistance. The pads settled in a little and the seal is much better. I think I need to further address some of the tone holes. To do this I need to make some better tone hole tools. The ones I have aren’t really sufficient for oboe tone holes. I’m going to have an oboe player friend of mine try it and give her opinion and spend a couple winter months practicing myself before I do anything with the tuning. I’m quite sure that some of my tuning problems are my own beginner’s technique and some are the horn itself. I’ll draw a pitch chart when my friend plays it and use it as a reference for later.
I love the technique with the blu-tac tape but I’m not positive I know what it is. Are you talking about the same stuff we use for scratch protection on flutes and saxophones? If so it surprises me that it would be sufficient to create a descent seal over the upper tone holes. It’s a great idea though.
What about octave width? When I’ve tuned clarinets I’ve used undercutting to bring wide 12ths together. I’d be afraid that with your technique I’d be creating a very sharp upper octave. I talked to a repair friend and mentor today and she suggested that I use cork for fill and possibly 5 minute epoxy to make the adjustment more permanent once the dimensions are realized. I like the idea of cork because I have worked with it before tuning saxophones. I’m not sure about the epoxy. It seems like it could get messy rather easily. When you refer to hard wax do you mean paraffin? Doesn’t it break off?
I have one more stupid question if you don’t mind. Nobody’s ever explained the purpose of tone hole beds on the oboe. Is it for the purpose of tuning (i.e. extra room for reaming)?
Do you like the Mirafone/Gordet/Hans Kruel oboes?
Thanks in advance
John Wiseman
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-12-07 22:13
Blu-Tack is the putty used for sticking posters on walls with - not sure of it's trade name in the US, though I think it might be Pritt-tack or similar. Good for testing joints for leaks before fitting keywork, or isolating a leaky pad.
http://www.blutack.com/
The hard black wax used for tuning is the same stuff used by cobblers for polishing shoes using a buffing machine - it smells a bit like bitumen when melted (and has a much higher melting point than paraffin wax). It sticks well when melted onto the insides of toneholes (much better than shellac), and can be shaped and removed easily. It's named after an American county or city whose name escapes me, but it comes in a triangular prism-shaped block.
With tonehole bedplaces, the diameter of the crown is usually much larger so several tonehole sizes can be used within the crown so one bedplace cutter can be used in several different places (and also there's plenty of room to enlarge the tonehole if needed), and also covering a small tonehole (eg. 3.5mm) with a large pad in a fingerplate (eg. 10.5mm) makes sure a greater diameter of the pad is employed rather than a small crown making contact right in the middle which may cut into the pad under finger pressure.
On Howarth oboes, a No.1 bedplace cutter is used for the top joint trills, C, Bb and G# bedplaces, and the toneholes through the middle have plenty of room around them should they need enlarging (on conservatoire system the top joint Bb and C toneholes are larger in diameter than those on a thumbplate system to compensate for RH finger 1 being closed on conservatoire when playing Bb and C, but the larger toneholes for these notes on conservatoire oboes are still well within the limits of the diameter of the bedplace crown) - though the G# bedplace is at the limit for it's tonehole.
I've only tried a few Kreul oboes and they weren't for me, though I do know some players that find Kreuls to be the right oboes for them. I don't know how different the Gordets are considering they may have been built to a different spec from the standard Mirafone/Kreuls.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: jwiseman114
Date: 2007-12-08 01:38
Thanks again
I think I understand everything...at least enough for now. The wax and blu-tack sounds perfect now that you've explained it. I'll let you know if I have any problems finding them but I'm usually pretty resourceful with these types of searches.
Like I told you I'm not in a great hurry for right now. I may call on you in a couple of months with some more questions but for right now I feel like I've been enough of a nuisance. I really can't express how grateful I am for your advice and knowledge. There is nothing in the world that I respect more than somebody who shares their experience so graciously.
Sincerely
John Wiseman
What about the wide octave concern (greedy)?
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Author: jwiseman114
Date: 2007-12-08 02:04
Chris,
Sorry to bother you again. Blu tack was easy enogh to find but I had to order it from England. I found black wax but nothing that matched your description exactly. I found this http://mail.google.com/mail/?null&ui=1
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-12-08 07:37
Wide 8ves can be dealt with by scraping the lower part of the reed to flatten things, athough this affects the whole instrument, embouchure changes can be employed to bring the uper 8ve down to pitch. Also, provided you use wired reeds, you can open up the narrow end of the staple from oval to almost round using a mandrel or pliers (swaging pliers will do this without the risk of flattening the staple) and this can flatten the upper register.
But some oboes are more prone to being sharp up top than others due to the bore shape, especially if it's large at the top end this can make the 8ves wide and the low notes bubble from E downwards - not easy to see on oboes, but modern soprano saxes have the top part of the bore narrowed to make the tuning easier in the upper register and reduce bubbling in the lower register.
And also the amount of undercutting of the toneholes can affect the 8ves as well - not sure if more undercutting sharpens or flattens the upper 8ve for any given note which has had it's tonehole undercut (although it does increase the flexibility of the pitch), though it's worth experimenting with the amount and shape of the undercutting (semi-circular or a straight cone).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: jwiseman114
Date: 2007-12-08 11:01
Chris,
http://www.clarkwfobes.com/Tuning%20article/Tuning%20the%20Clarinet%20for%20PS.htm
This is the article that I've referenced when I've done this kind of work with clarinets (A must read IMO). Undercutting has the ability to raise the lower register to a relative greater pitch than the 12th, thus bringing the 12th closer together. It is done fairly commonly on the lower register F on Buffet R13s which is commonly flat compared to it's 12th (C). It naturally has an effect on tone color which can be a good thing...or bad. I have a Prestige that used to be my main Bb that I never had to adjust. As long as I'm practicing enough I can overcome a lot of tuning issues. This is why I'm going to do quite a bit of practicing before I do any of this work and create the pitch chart with a my friend who is a very good player. I just want the horn to be reasonable as far as it's tuning issues. I think this can be pretty 'hairy work' and as you know, good tone trumps good tuning if one has to choosen over the other. In other words, I'm going to do this work with great care and by small degrees.
Regarding the narrowing of the upper bore: is this a modern feature or is it traditionally used?
Thank you for the reed advice as well. I obviously have a lot to learn.
John
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2007-12-09 10:42
John,
A couple of links you may find interesting. The first is about tuning from the player's perspective:
http://idrs.colorado.edu/publications/Journal/JNL4/oboe.html
The second discusses in broad terms the use of undercutting on the instrument. Since the focus of the article is historical, I have no idea if the information it contains is still relevant for modern instruments, but it is a fascinating read just the same:
http://www.idrs.org/WWW.IDRS/Publications2/DR2/DR22.1/102.great.pdf
Enjoy!
J.
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Author: jwiseman114
Date: 2007-12-09 16:13
The article links you provided are fantastic (I was skeptical!) and will both really help me in my endeavors.
Thank you
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Author: jwiseman114
Date: 2007-12-12 12:38
The oboe technique article is very interesting but quite a bit foreign for me. I want to ask you if the teaching perspective represented is considered common pedagogy on the oboe. I have received a fair amount of instruction on single reed instruments but very little on oboe.
The 'new' concepts are 'riding the wind', 'constant air speed', and using the corners of your embouchure for dynamics.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2007-12-12 15:17
John --
Just a quick take. I haven't read the referenced articles and don't have time to do that right now, but I can already tell you that the concept of "riding the wind" (usually stated as 'playing ON the wind, not WITH the wind') and "constant air speed" are very basic, probably universal, standard-issue concepts in oboe pedagogy.
Not sure about using the corners of the embouchure for dynamics. I've never heard of that one -- but then, I may very well have missed something.
Susan
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Author: jwiseman114
Date: 2007-12-12 17:04
My reference was from memory. His statement was "All oboe playing is fortissimo blowing! The pianissimo and diminuendo technique is controlled at the tip of the reed with the corners of the embouchure enveloping more or less reed; the speed of air required to produce either a loud or soft tone, however, is the same in either case."
My problem is that I don't have much in the way of background regarding oboe playing technique so some of this stuff is like a foreign language. I just wanted to get a second opinion on the article Your comments are appreciated.
Thank you.
John Wiseman
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