 The Oboe BBoard
|
Author: OldTimer
Date: 2007-09-30 22:57
I have actually been playing oboe for well over 20 years. But I had to stop for about 7 years. Now, I'm trying to do my 2x30 minutes a day, but my mouth is just crying! Both my lips and my jaw are aching.
I used to do reed exercises and sustained tones. But now that I don't have 3 hours of daily practice time, I just remember the repertoire and I want to get to it.
Does anyone have any really good advice on getting the face back in shape?
Thanks
Post Edited (2007-09-30 23:03)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: d-oboe
Date: 2007-10-01 00:47
Remember to be realistic - if you can't put in the time, you can't expect wondrous results. The reality is that the more you play, the better shape your embouchure will be in - there's no real way to work around it.
Despite this, you shouldn't be in pain while playing. If you are in real pain, rather than just a bit of muscle fatigue, then I would guess that your reed is too hard.
Try to play as much as possible. When you're busy at home with other things, try alternating back and forth, if it allows - oboe, work, oboe, work. You'll find that you actually get a lot done in both respects, because your mind stays fresher. On days that you have more time, take advantage of it!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dutchy
Date: 2007-10-01 03:50
Quote:
Both my lips and my jaw are aching.
I'm just an adult beginner myself, but--is your jaw supposed to be hurting? I was told that if your jaw hurts, that means you're biting.
Even with my embouchure at its most jelly-like state of quivering exhaustion, I never have pain in my jaw.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: vboboe
Date: 2007-10-01 06:33
... think d-oboe's hit on it, use softer, more responsive reeds as if starting over from scratch and work your way up reed strengths gradually, after 7 years away, a mid-life adult's body just isn't the same as you used to be, you have to recondition it again
... all that lovely music beckons and motivates you to press on, but it won't sound o'beautiful if you're in pain, so focus instead on producing only your most beautiful notes for today and when they deteriorate, stop, rest 24 hours, try to extend to a few bars more of beautiful notes tomorrow
... in the meantime, you could do 2 hours of silent fingering exercises and silently playing through your fave pieces
... geez, that's funny, fingers don't seem to work quite the way you remember they did either ...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: OldTimer
Date: 2007-10-01 13:51
Hello and thanks for the reply,
NO, the jaw is not supposed to be hurting... ever. I don't bite: this causes the lips pain. I used to be a professional, so I know. My jaw hurts because the neck muscles are pulling it down to prevent biting. That's why I'm looking for ways to increase facial strength overall. I can do the reed exercises fine, but when I put the reed back into the instrument, it's as if I didn't do anything.
I think your "quivering exhaustion" might be a good sign : you're not getting into bad habits. If you're starting, then you won't get discouraged with the memories of once being much better!
Best of luck!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: OldTimer
Date: 2007-10-01 13:57
Thank you very much for the reply. What you say appears to be the concensus.
My fingers are actually quite allright : perhaps from typing at the computer so much. Not as much "fluidity" as way back when, but even just a little bit of practicing ornamented scales does wonders.
As for reed exercises, I'm usually quite good at them. But when I put the reed back into the instruement, it's like I did no exercises at all!
You're right about focussing on sound quality. I'm really looking for a strategy to build facial strength (from the lips to the cheeks to the neck muscles - to prevent jaw fatigue) in a similar way as a body-builder gets a routine from a trainer. Doing the wrong exercises (or too many) will actually hurt the body, but the right ones (or the right amount) will develop upper-body strenght more quickly.
I'm looking for that kind of balance.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jhoyla
Date: 2007-10-01 16:31
Hi OldTimer,
Try this exercise out for size:
No equipment, reeds, instruments necessary other than a mirror, at first.
Start with the face totally relaxed.
Now, with your lips together, push your lips as far forwards as they can go, rather like a staged kiss.
Keeping your lips poking forward, pull the corners of your mouth as far down as they can go, tight against your teeth at the root of your lower canines, and HOLD this position as long as you can.
Keep poking your lips as far forward as you can, rather like Donald Duck.
Feel the strain? Does it feel familiar?
Repeat often. Well, at least until you get your muscle tone back.
Good luck!
J.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dutchy
Date: 2007-10-01 21:45
I've been doing this for 2-1/2 years now, and even when I was just starting, I never experienced jaw pain from dropping my mouth open. Maybe you're forcing your jaw open too far, like over-compensating?
Or maybe one of us has a non-standard neck? ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: vboboe
Date: 2007-10-01 22:11
[:-{ omigosh, jhoyla, after age 50-55 that exercise is much too easy, gravity's already done all the work pulling down the mouth corners !
instead i like to work-out the upper lip and cheek 'smile' muscles, in the forlorn hope i'll eventually succeed at playing with mouth corners almost level and perhaps even look relatively pleasant, heh heh {:-]
bonus, this limits jaw drop to a more comfortable stretch instead of over-stretch, i find slinging the jaw side to side helps relieve dropped jaw strain
as oldtimer said, reed exercises by themselves are easy enough, but a totally different thing when 'weighed down' in the oboe
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jhoyla
Date: 2007-10-01 22:48
Hmm .. I suppose that I must sound much younger than I am ..
I am probably not describing the exercise well enough. If done correctly, it makes you bunch, tighten and strengthen the corners of your embouchure, while stretching and flexing your lips. I find it very useful.
Of all the "stand alone" exercises, it is the one that helps me build up stamina quickly. I can even use it while driving (and without dribbling through a reed), drawing only raised-eyebrows from fellow motorists.
Another thing that is often missed by young oboists (though obviously not ex pros!) is to open the mouth as often as possible while playing. Young players, once they have the "right" position of the reed in their mouths will try and keep it there and breathe through their noses (or not breathe at all if they are fit).
However, lips pressed tightly against a reed have a problem with blood-supply, and rapidly tire. Releasing the reed allows blood to flow back and replenish the oxygen supply to the lip muscles.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cjwright
Date: 2007-10-02 07:30
Last year I made a comeback after taking 6 years off, and it took me a long long time (6 months or so?) to build enough strength to be able to play a simple solo piece. I'd suggest doing small reeds, and really being disciplined in your long tones. Keep a record of what long tones you do, for how long, and how many beats. I did a ton of long tones between middle D to high C just to get my "rolling in-rolling out" muscles developed properly, because I knew if I didn't I'd end up biting hard.
If you're just coming back, 30 minutes a sitting is too much! I know it sounds like a little, but for dormant muscles, you need more time to go slowly. I had to go about 10 minutes and build about 2 minutes or so every 5 days to a week. Remember, it takes your muscles about 6 hours to recover enough in order to build muscle. If you work your muscles again to quickly (with not enough rest time in between), you end up tearing muscle. Tearing muscle can lead to scar tissue, eventually weaking the general vicinity in which you want to be strengthening. Easy does her.
Do you have a good source of reeds? Make sure they're well-made, and stable!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois
Date: 2007-10-02 13:17
Cooper's view is in line with my experience -- shorter playing times, increasing the duration over time. I additionally have had the experience of trying to restore embouchure when one is a senior, rather than a person in their 20s-40s. It is a much slower process; muscles are less resilient and need more recovery time. When I have taken time off (e.g. 6 weeks after a surgery, or even a 2 week vacation) it can, at my age, debilitate the embochure. I recommend practicing for 10-15 minutes, four times a day, but shortening the duration when the embochure feels pain. And the reeds need to be light, as has been suggested by other posters, with a gradual increase in reed resistance and hardness. I am always astonished, after a break in playing, how hard were the reeds I had been using just prior to the break!
Another area to attend to after a break in playing, especially for those over 50, and particularly as well for females (which I am) is the strength of the abdominal and other stability muscles. I have a regime of sit-ups and other exercises which I find imperative in order to continue playing. Otherwise I find my breath support weakens and I create bad habits, such as shallower breathing in the upper chest. Some aerobic exercise needs also to be included, to keep the lung capacity and cardio health up. Conscious focus on these things is not as urgent for younger players, as their natural musculature tends to be sufficient without additional attention. They also might note, however, that it will not always be the case....
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bobo
Date: 2007-10-02 14:27
As a guy pushing 50 who made a return after several decades of not playing, i strongly agree with hautbois' view that general physical conditioning is extremely important, increasingly so as one ages. As much as the embouchure, one must develop strength in the abdominal support area, and that includes diaphragm and intercostal muscles (the ones between the ribs that you use to squeeze air out of the lungs)...I pulled a an intercostal muscle last year shoveling snow and had to stop playing for three weeks! A steady regime of aerobic exercise and strength training is very important. I run on an elliptical trainer and do yoga exercises regularly...i got my yoga routine from a video called "yoga for wimps"! I kid you not! Also, pay close attention to the health of your shoulders, wrists and hand muscles...do not play through pain! Your body is telling you to take a break or do stretching exercises. As you age, you gain a lot in musical and intellectual maturity; personally, i think that these are the most important things. We are not athletes; however, it's not a bad idea to think of yourself as one in terms of the need for being in excellent physical condition. As an aside, a close friend who plays the violin was telling me how she envied my ability to just put my fingers in a certain configuration and have the right note come out! So I handed her my oboe and told her to try it. That was fun. This is not a wooden flute we're talking about here!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: OldTimer
Date: 2007-10-02 23:17
I was impressed with your observations. Are you now at a point where you can practice for a whole hour "straight" - even on a soft reed? Of course "straight" also includes time for adjusting keys or writing on the part, etc., etc., et.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: OldTimer
Date: 2007-10-02 23:22
Your situation sounds a lot like mine. Was it 6 years with absolutely playing, or did you toot a few tunes every couple of months?
Quite right about the reeds. Luckily, my reeds have always been the envy of others. Short reeds make it easier to have them at the same time stable and soft. Long reeds have other advantages best left to another topic.
How's your endurance now? Can you do a whole hour "straight"?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: OldTimer
Date: 2007-10-02 23:28
Quite impressive. By "several decades", do you mean you didn't play at all during that time? Not even a little toot for old times sake?
Your comments on overall physical fitness are unbelieveably right on the ball. When I attended Le Conservatoire de Montreal, there was this class we had to take combining Yoga, Pilates and some kind of dancing. As soon as these classes ended - pow - tendonitis set in.
I overcame it and other pains by taking good care of my overall body. A full routine of streatching, the kind professional atheletes do, is imperative regardless of age. It's also important for wakefullness and injury prevention.
I have also found that drinking 2 liters of water a day haver reduced to a quarter - exactly - the amount of pain relievers I need to take.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois
Date: 2007-10-02 23:57
OldTimer -- When I had to take a break because of surgery (13 years ago, when I was 50) I was principal oboe in a professional orchestra, and during the concert season I practiced 3-4 hours daily (that includes reed-making as well), in two or more sessions, most days. After the hiatus, I slowly worked myself back into the same routine, and continued until my retirement from my orchestra last spring, when I cut back considerably. I still play the gigs which interest me, and am now preparing for the strenuous Bach B minor mass on oboe I and oboe d'amore I, and trying to again work my practice time up to at least three hours a day in order to be able to actually enjoy performing the Bach. As for the rest of your query, I do try to play the entire movements and consecutive movements straight, and particularly plan to focus on the short time interval for doubling switches during the next few weeks. I then fiddle around with screw adjustments or reeds during the time when tacet movements would be taking place, and then play the next series of consecutive movements. My goal is to be able to play the entire Mass twice per day comfortably -- a necessity since there is a dress rehearsal the morning of the concert. Light reeds will be an absolute prerequisite.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: OldTimer
Date: 2007-10-03 00:39
Wow, no kidding, amazing!
And inspiring. I guess I have no reason to complain - let alone give up!
My best wishes to you and I'll follow your advice to the letter!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: vboboe
Date: 2007-10-03 01:46
... ah, did i see the 'twice as long, twice as strong' hot tip hidden there in hautbois' advice?
Yes, that's so important for newbies to know!
If the Christmas or year-end school concert's going to be 20 minutes long or whatever, or if the school band's going to tour around to local schools giving performances on the same day, embouchure has to be strong enough to play everything in the same day -- not just once through!
so 2-3 months leading up to any concert, practice longer every single day until you can go 2-3 times longer than the estimated playing time of any school band concert
otherwise, extra rehearsals in the same week, tiring in themselves, plus a final rehearsal + performance in same day, or multiple performances same day, will just kill your chops and exhaust breathing muscles too, some may even get migraine headache
Has anybody tried that ChopSaver balm, does it really help delay lip fatigue?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bobo
Date: 2007-10-03 01:49
By several decades i mean 25 years without touching the instrument. I resumed on soft reeds (a crappy meason did me quite well right at the start) and worked my way back up into the full reedmaking routine. I knew I'd made it when a pro reed I bought upfront that made me feel like my head was going to explode became a pleasure to play on. That took several months of regular playing. One other thing about playing the oboe - it's a superior form of meditation: what i mean is you regulate your breathing rhythmically, focus with great concentration on making music and coordinating your mind and body, and get fully lost in it. I think it's very therapeutic.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: OldTimer
Date: 2007-10-03 02:36
Another truly encouraging story. Thanks for sharing it.
I completely agree with your meditation thing. I really believe that music is God's (or whatever you believe in) language - that is the one we are able to perceive and grasp. Performing music (as opposed to buying CD's or streaming podcasts) is a the greatest gift He gave us. To me, a good double-reed sound is simply the most "alive" sound there is.
Anyway, there is a lot of physiological (medical) and developmental-psychology litterature to rave the benefits of playing music despite modern-day "practical values". Reeds are not so difficult to make (once you learned what works, what doesn't and why) and playing the oboe is just the most enjoyable activity I know.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dutchy
Date: 2007-10-03 14:49
Quote:
Has anybody tried that ChopSaver balm, does it really help delay lip fatigue?
I don't see how it could. Muscle fatigue is caused by the buildup of lactic acid in the muscles, which is a waste by-product of the metabolism of muscles burning glucose for energy. There isn't any chemical way to remove that lactic acid outside of your bloodstream's natural process of elimination, as the biochemical factory that is your body breaks it down and removes it via the kidneys. If there were such a way to remove lactic acid, we'd have athletes like the Tour de France bicycle racers using it, and I've never heard of any such thing.
All Chop Saver is, is lip balm. It may not be petrochemical-based like Chapstick, and they can tout their special herbal/nutriceutical ingredients like ginger and white willow all they want, but it's still just lip balm.
Also, I note that on their website FAQ, they advertise that it "stays on your lips and won't gunk up your reeds". Since it's made of ordinary waxes, fats, and oils, I don't see how that could possibly be true. Your skin doesn't have a way to "lock in" a fat or oil you smear onto it. Even lip paint like stage makeup that's designed to stay on there for longer than average, will eventually come off, as your lips move and as your skin's natural oils and sloughing off of dead skin cells moves it off.
And indeed, two sentences later, it says, "And if you need to remove it, it wipes off easily." Uh huh. ![[right]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie8.gif) A lip balm cannot BOTH stay on your lips and not be wiped off by your reed, AND be capable of being wiped off easily. Either your reed will wipe it off easily, or it will stay put. Not both.
And they say, "you don’t have to constantly re-apply! One application lasts for hours! " Well, one application of Chapstick lasts for hours, too.
It's just lip balm. Chapstick is cheaper.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sylvangale
Date: 2007-10-05 07:40
I also had a 7 year break. It is so inexpressively painful to pick up the oboe after such a break, but over time with practice you will get better and the pain will go away. You must rely on time to heal your wounds and be patient.
If you can find a private teacher near you that can be a major boon to get you into a good routine and for moral support.
Best of luck in your recovery.
♫ Stephen K.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: OldTimer
Date: 2007-10-05 15:12
Thanks for the reply.
What you said about getting a teacher resonnates with advice some pros. gave me : play in ensembles if only for the regular rehearsals. This will motivate more regular practice. Furthermore, ensemble playing usually has shorter playing stints and more breaks for the lips to get the blood flowing again.
How many minutes/hours are you up to now? How long did it take to get there?
I have found that advice given to use soft / easy reeds (as opposed to hard and/OR chokey) not only allows me to play longer and/or more often in the same day, it also seems to help muscles gain strenght more quickly. BUT I haven't been experimenting long, so more time is needed to confirm this.
Thanks and please tell more about your story ---- I'm asking everyone who is reading this, oboist or otherwise.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Old Oboe
Date: 2007-10-06 02:51
I played through high school and one year of college. About a year after graduation I bought my own oboe, having used school instruments. I eventually joined a community band for a few years and really enjoyed it. I then moved and didn't play for about 15 years. (I pulled it out once to play duets with a friend who played recorder.) I resumed playing a year ago and have experienced much of what has been discussed. Now I notice that my fingers get stiff after playing and my right wrist aches. (I'm 56) My embouchure has come back slowly. My oboe was way out of adjustment and not that good to begin with. I just upgraded to a better instrument and now I'm looking to take lessons. The plus side is that now I am making music rather than playing notes and I am enjoying it more than ever before. Additionally I am exeperiencing a lot of growth by attempting little solos in the band music (I used to always play second.). Sometimes I fall flat, but I'm losing that fear of playing exposed parts that kept me paralysed for a long time. I'm soaking up all the advice and trying it out! Music is truly theraputic!
Linda
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: vboboe
Date: 2007-10-06 07:45
<<Now I notice that my fingers get stiff after playing and my right wrist aches>>
I experimented a bit with holding the oboe most comfortably in right hand and discovered the thumb-rest was set up too high (about 5mm) for my best comfort and fingering manageability, so i folded up a wad of paper just the extra thickness i needed to lower the contact position, and used black tape to strap it all together and it looks fairly esthetic
The thumb-rest was already extra-wide, but the paper wad has increased the width as well by another 4-5mm so weight's better distributed towards inside thumb rather than just the nail and joint side = no wrist or thumb ache for me any more
Also, the smooth tape doesn't present as much friction as cork, so can now slide thumb back and forth a bit under the taped & padded thumb-rest to accomodate slight adjustments of wrist when reaching for pinky keys, doing forked F's, palming or rocking the right Ab, etc.
My fingers are often stiff before playing, i find massaging palms and rotating fingers at the knuckle joints first helps loosen them up, especially now the cold wet weather's arrived
If the thumb-rest's too low for your best comfort, maybe your local repair guy can simply turn it over or reposition it
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sylvangale
Date: 2007-10-06 07:58
It took me a few months to get up to playing for 45 minute periods and after a year I was up to 1.5 hour periods. Though now I just practice for hour periods 2-3 times a week and play with a community group.
It's been 3-4 years now and I'm really playing far better than when I quit years ago. I'm doing Russian Christmas and Shostakovich's Festive Overture in band now and they're very accessible when really not too long ago I was having issues with something like Aladdin <g>.
Before you join a concert band hunt for some MMO CDs that you can play along with for the concert band experience at home, the Woodwind Quintet and Douvas series are good. When you play with a group it's a whole new world where you're not just concerned about how the reed plays... but that it's in tune with everyone else. That can be scary.
♫ Stephen K.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bobo
Date: 2007-10-06 13:59
There was a good thread on hand problems and aids a while back - I posted some hand exercises that I still find very useful..the whole thread is worth a read for those interested.
http://test.woodwind.org/oboe/BBoard/read.html?f=10&i=6211&t=6204
"Tap each finger with the thumb of the same hand. Repeat five times. Alternate tapping the palm of your hand and the back of your hand against your thigh as quickly as you can. Repeat 20 times. Open your hands and spread your fingers as far apart as possible. Hold for 10 seconds and repeat eight times. Fold your hands together, and turn your palms away from your body as you extend your arms forward. You should only feel a gentle stretch. Hold for 10 seconds and repeat eight times. Fold your hands together, turn your palms away from your body, and extend your arms overhead. You should feel the stretch in your upper torso and shoulders to hand. Hold for 10 seconds and repeat eight times."
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: vboboe
Date: 2007-10-06 21:09
... it's really useful to know that even pro renewbies find it takes them about half to full year getting their embouchure back in shape, and basically they can't play any longer at a stretch than brand new students in that same period of time -- and that's with the additional expectation they already have of more advanced lip control technique in their memories than newbies still growing an awareness of any kind of lip control at all
... looking back at the years it took you seasoned pros to get in tune as a beginner oboe student, with good focused intonation, how many years would you say it took you before you were pretty good at it?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hautbois
Date: 2007-10-06 21:55
To answer the query about the time it took as a beginner to develop a certain facility: As a pre-teen, I really did not have the self-awareness to accurately assess things like how well I played in tune or how well I did or did not phrase, etc. I started at aged 10, was given lots of encouragement by teachers and orchestra conductors, and by age 16 I was principal oboe in All-Eastern Orchestra, and played principal in a local community orchestra, did many church gigs (mostly Bach), and had my own trio sonate ensemble. My guess is that the intonation sense was there all along, as I also sang in ensembles and had a musical family, and had a teacher who guided my reed-making to help me create reeds which easily played in tune. I took a 10 year hiatus, starting in college. Upon resuming the instrument, I would say it took a disproportionately long time to get to where I think I was before the break -- maybe a few years, with moderate practice (maybe an hour most days). When I later had time to truly focus on the instrument (in my 30s), increased practice time quickly provided much greater facility.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: vboboe
Date: 2007-10-14 20:52
... followup on ChopSaver lip-balm
well, waddya know, there i was in the music store waiting in a line-up for something else entirely, when there it was, right there in the miscellaneous accessory section, one single tube, the very last one, ChopSaver, waiting ... just for me, and just in time for long weekend practice sessions :-)
Guess who's giving it a try-out for new season longer sessions in another, more advanced, band (1.5 is now 2.5 hrs, yes with a break) and long weekend morning practices (2.5 hrs, breaks ditto) when my lips are somewhat tender, all i can say is it doesn't hurt, feels smooth, smells refreshing, and today could get started easily enough after yesterday ... and, as the very last tube in the store at that moment, a gold'n'green opportunity not to be missed ...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
