 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: Thomas.
Date: 2006-06-04 09:17
Does anyone here have a way of practising awkward fingerings which every oboist dreads to see. I am playing a trio by Reizenstein, who obviously knew nothing about the oboe, as he has some incredibly awkward fingerings in his pieces. For example, low Bb - low B - low Bb - low Eb
Post Edited (2006-06-04 21:11)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-06-04 09:39
Have you got a low B-C connection on your oboe so you can play low B and Bb without putting down the RH low C key?
It's an adjusting screw and arm added to the low C key which connects it to the low B key.
Most Howarths have this, and the German spec oboes (even those by Loree and Marigaux) also have it added as well as it's popular in Germany (as well as the UK).
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Author: Thomas.
Date: 2006-06-04 10:02
Thanks for replying so fast! I'm not sure if I have the connection you're talking about, I'll check tomorrow. I have a Buffet Greenline http://www.buffet-crampon.com/instruments/instruments_detail.asp?ID=617 but the thumbplate has been removed because I used to have a 30 year old loree(no thumbplate or 3rd octace key). Do you have any suggestions as to how to practice these awkward fingerings?
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2006-06-04 10:41
There is no substitute to a good slow practise, which i am sure you have heard about just about a couple of million times? LOL...but it aint it so true?
Yes like Chris P mentioned this mechanism is evident in many oboes today. My Loree DM (10 years old) does not have this mechanism but i can manage intervals like that fairly well, not perfect of course, but i did get to do them after much slow practise. You have to analyse slowly what is going on with your fingers. For example the low E to low Bb interval. If it is not successful you have to start identifying slow fingers from either hand and try to encourage that afterwards.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-06-04 11:45
Oh right, I thought the Loree DM would have had the B-C link, especially with it being made for the German market. I only ever see the AK and Royal oboes here in the UK.
But definitely practice slowly and gradually build up speed - that's always the best policy.
Fortunately the passage you have doesn't end with Eb - that'd be even more tricky, and even worse without a B-C link. With the B-C link fitted your RH little finger is free, so you won't have to slide from the C to Eb key.
Do you roll the tip of your little finger to the low Bb? Keep your little finger on the low B key, and rotate your wrist downwards so that the edge of your little finger touches the low Bb key, then rotate it back up for the B natural and back down again for the Bb - then remove the necessary fingers for the E.
It is much easier with the low B-C link as you can keep your RH little finger off the low C key, and just lift your LH little finger and RH finger 3 for the E.
Maybe your Buffet might have the B-C link if it once had a thumblate fitted, but you can tell if it has when you press the low B or Bb, and all the bottom keys and the middle RH fingerplate closes together. Without the link only the low B and bell key wil close - the low C will stay open.
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Author: GMac
Date: 2006-06-04 12:48
You might not like doing this, but it does help for any instance where you have to slide (Bb-B, regular Eb-Db, low Bb-Eb, etc). Take the finger that has to slide and rub it on the bottom corner of your nose. It is a particularly greasy spot on your face and will make the sliding much easier.
I know it sounds gross, but I have had many professional oboists tell me to do that. And it works!
As far as just practicing the fingerings, nothing like slow practice, of course. However, other than that you can also do a few things...first of all, practice the slides in different rhythms. Just go between the two notes in varied rhythms such as dotted eighth sixteenth, sixteenth dotted eighth, triplets, etc. When you're doing this, try to focus on making as little excess movement as possible. Finally, stop on the note that is giving you trouble and really nail it. For example, in your passage, if you can get down to the low Bb but not back up to the B, first go B-Bb and stop on the Bb, then once that is comfortable go B-Bb-B and stop on the second B and really nail it before you go to the final E.
Hope that helps! Good luck...
Graham
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2006-06-04 14:06
"You might not like doing this, but it does help for any instance where you have to slide (Bb-B, regular Eb-Db, low Bb-Eb, etc). Take the finger that has to slide and rub it on the bottom corner of your nose. It is a particularly greasy spot on your face and will make the sliding much easier."
Yes i have also heard of that a couple of times and have tried it out myself. It worked out pleasantly!
VERY GOOD advice. Thanks Graham!
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2006-06-04 18:11
... rocka da nose greased pinkie in da groove, man, turn down left for B-flat, turn up right for B, depends on size of hands and pinkie for how much left wrist drop rotation needed to get enough reach and pinkie joint leverage
... same for right pinkie, rock between C & Eb, tip of pinkie in groove pointing but not touching C#
... adjust pinkie set key spacing a tad if necessary
... yes, i've seen it done, it's awesome, so subtle, so minimalist, but no i can't get it yet. If it's superhuman for you too, grease your pinkies for ye normal average human's slide technique
...dontcha just love synchronising triple finger lifts on two hands!?
Remember 'minimal lift & drop' is all that's actually needed, don't need vertical hydraulic lifts for pinkies, but to begin with, muscles need fine tuning
... finger exercise prop -- put an suitable size elastic band figure of eight on R3 & R4, just loose enough to reach E-flat, but snug enough to lift R4 when lift R3 (that is, don't actually lift R4 by itself, instead lift R3 and bring R4 up with it)
PS, this normal average human just added to specs wishlist for my next upgrade in oboe (maybe 3 years from now, might be enough time to make progress on both slide and rocking techniques) -- gotta have low B-C link :-)
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2006-06-04 19:14
I occasionally do this, i wonder if it is acceptable.
For the Eb-Db interval. If it is a slow phrase, and that i have to go from left F to right Eb first before going to the next Db, i switch to left Eb from right and in the process does not let go of the right Eb key until i have secured left Eb, and at last goes for the Db. An example of this is in the Tchaikovsky 4th 2nd movement solo. I don't know if this sounds logical to many of us here??
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2006-06-04 19:46
My 14-year-old Marigaux does not have this linkage, but my 31-year-old Prestini does. Unfortunately, the B and B flat on the Prestini are so far out of tune that I'd be embarrassed to play them. Anybody ever hear of retrofitting an oboe with a B-flat resonance?
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2006-06-04 20:23
... sounds totally logical to me, i find myself doing the same thing trying to switch from left F, yes, if pace nice and slow, it's sort of like caressing your oboe, eh?
... but in the example you mentioned, i know i'd automatically and unthinkingly be doing forked F, then goto Left E-flat and use right pinkie on D-flat
... or the nose-greased slide if eye-brain-finger coordination doesn't process left E-flat fast enough LOL
So if it's a perfectly smooth transition for you at andante, it's unofficially acceptable at audible level, but ask yourself is it minimal finger technik, and would it still work at presto moving up and down between A-flats?
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2006-06-04 20:52
... as for awkward fingerings i persoanlly hate right now, there's this deceptively simple coupla bars in key signature 3 flats, 8ths, A natural, F, B-flat, F (repeated again same bar, next bar A natural to F) at Mozart's favorite bouncy allegro, when the flute's away i hafta play it up octave at armor-piercing forte, ack!
... it's driving me insane on conservatory, here's an example of where t-plate would really simplify things
... yeah, R2 & R3 are centre balanced and 'pivoting' on F key
... well, it was totally gimped last year, this year ... it's improving, silent fingering reps, reps, reps }:-{
... the flute who can actually play this (beep) tricky bit had better be there this time!!!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-06-04 21:00
"Anybody ever hear of retrofitting an oboe with a B-flat resonance?"
Yes, all alterations are possible.
If you look at some Mirafone (Kreul) oboes, some of these have the short bell key barrel, but have an extra cranked arm added to it, extending some way below the pillar for the bell resonance key cup to cover the resonance vent.
And the low B tonehole (on the bell) can be undercut to sharpen it.
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Author: Thomas.
Date: 2006-06-04 21:13
I just realised I made a typing error, the last note is an Eb, not an E
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-06-04 21:39
Aah - now that is a difficult one without having to slide your RH pinky.
But still a doddle on oboes fitted with the B-C link - as I mentioned earlier, the RH pinky is freed up and is then free to open the Eb key, but at the same time the LH pinky is lifted, otherwise pressing the RH Eb key while the LH pinky is down will force the LH low B and Bb to open.
The B-C link is the arm and adjustment immediately above the low C# pad cup - look at the following photo (and there's a picture of a thumbplate as well):
http://www.howarth.uk.com/pic.aspx?pic=./wo/HowarthXLBWTPOboe.jpg&pid=35115
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-06-04 21:43)
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2006-06-04 22:03
... gotta hand it to Howarth's these are some of the best online catalogue pix i've seen out there, crisp, clear, closeup awesome, am i inferring correctly you and howarths have a working relationship?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-06-04 22:40
Ok, I'll come clean - I'm a Howarth employee and have been since 1998, and my job is finishing oboes for them - and it's certainly a responsibility.
I don't think I could go back to working in a general music shop ever again, at least with Howarth I know I'm working with good instruments, and I hope the oboes I finish give the players exactly what they want.
And I get to try out all sorts of interesting instruments as well!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-06-04 22:43)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-06-04 23:03
Chris P wrote:
> Ok, I'll come clean - I'm a Howarth employee and have been
> since 1998, and my job is finishing oboes for them - and it's
> certainly a responsibility.
What you have done is completely unethical on this BBoard. Employees of companies associated with products discussed here are required to disclose their associations.
Mark Charette
Webmaster
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-06-05 08:40
I didn't realise as finisher for the company I was duty bound to disclose this, and apologise if I have caused any grief to the board owners, operators and any upset to board users and members.
Though I have gained most of the knowledge in my field about all the instruments I work on well before I became an employee, including Howarth instruments which I've always aspired to owning and playing from a young age, and when offered the job as a finisher for them I certainly didn't hesitate in taking that on, and for someone with the lack of academic qualifications (bits of paper) as me I can only be grateful to them for taking me on due to my skills as a repairer or finisher as opposed to my (lack of) qualifications - where else can I get a job since I don't even have GCSE Maths or English, and an office worker I'm definitely not, let alone an accountant!
Before working for them I was a woodwind repairer and specialist beginning this work at 14 and I felt it was my responsibility to know about the various makes and models of all woodwind instruments so as to suggest the right instrument for the right customer and which ones to avoid, and working on all the different makes and models has also given me the hands on knowledge of what's good and bad, and pass this on to others.
Since working for Howarths my job is instrument finishing which is loads more fulfilling to me than working in sales, and you might not like what I'll say next, but I didn't like the whole dishonesty of the sales and marketing side of the music business which I once worked in and is still evident, if not even more so nowadays with major companies of all kinds.
Now I could go on and say I wasn't being dishonest but being economical with the truth, but that's not going to change things and just a load of old crap - in all honesty I obviously didn't read or understand the terms and conditions set out well enough before I started posting on here.
I do keep an open mind, if anyone wants any info on anything I know of, I'll offer it to them. If you want my opinions on anything good or bad I'll do that too.
Please tell me what I should do now - if you want me to stop using these boards I will, but while I've been on here I do appreciate all the info I've gained from all the regulars that know their stuff, and I hope I've also given the right info to all concerned in return where it was due.
Chris P, an oboe finisher for Howarth.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2006-06-05 10:57
Chris P wrote:
> I didn't realise as finisher for the company I was duty bound
> to disclose this, and apologise if I have caused any grief to
> the board owners, operators and any upset to board users and
> members.
You have cause great grief, and have caused me personally a great deal of work, having to go back and add disclaimers to many of your posts where you recommend or discuss Howarth instruments.
One of the things we try & enforce is at least some base honesty - and that of course involves who you work for. I have never objected to people putting their affiliations in a signature (unless the signature becomes longer than the average post). Not disclosing an affiliation and then making pronouncements as to the suitability of a product is disingenuous at best.
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2006-06-05 11:09
Correction, i do have the b-c link on my DM! I didn't realise the use of that until now, and i always thought to be meerly an alternate way to play low C for the past 6 months! Shame one me =(
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-06-05 11:20
Make sure it's properly regulated so all the lower 3 pads close together when you press the low Bb key.
It definitely makes arpeggios starting with Bb-D or B-D easier - and definitely makes Bb-Eb and B-D# easier still without sliding the RH pinky across from the C key to the Eb key.
I'd definitely like a LH low C# as well (next to the LH F key) - just to be on par with clarinets and saxes.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-06-05 11:32)
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2006-06-05 12:07
As for tricky left-right switching, I would recommend using forked-F whenever possible to avoid unnecessary and risky switches between left and right versions of notes. (Same with fast passages - use the forked fingering! It is a much cleaner switch than using left F. It shouldn't be frowned upon as a "bad" or "cheat" fingering. Just DON'T press down the Eb key)
This will also give a better phrase, as more attention can be given to the music at that time, rather than "oh my god here comes that tricky key switch!".
Of course if the oboe that one has is of lesser quality, and the forked F is not acoustically functional, then it won't work. However, on any decent oboe, as long as the reed is functioning properly, and one is BLOWING then the forked F should sound in tune and should match tone color to surrounding notes. For some reason, if the reed isn't good, it is THE most obvious note - it sounds horrible!
d
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-06-05 13:33
Thanks for saying that about the forked F fingering. I have found that on my oboe (a Covey Classic), the forked F fingering actually produces a better F than the standard fingerings do. The standard F fingerings are sharp -- and yes, the oboe has been adjusted, by me and others, a gazillion times with this in mind.
But I don't mind using the forked fingerings at all -- feels perfectly normal to me -- and I don't wince when the tone sounds, like I do sometimes on the so-called "standard" fingering.
Susan
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-06-05 13:58
It's one of those notes that has to be humoured - I always make the mistake of keeping the Eb key open so the forked F ends up a shade on the sharp side (when playing in flat keys), then end up lipping it down to get it in tune (and then the following note has to be lipped back up again). And the venting on the F key is critical as well - I only give it about 1.5mm opening.
One day I'll get round to making myself a saxophone system oboe - that'll be loads easier to get around, especially in keys with more than 4 accidentals either way!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-06-05 16:19
It's more in terms of response and stability than pitch - if it's open more than 1.5mm (when measured at the front of the pad) it could become unstable (or 'fly') when pushed. But anything less than 1mm venting and it will be on the flat side.
Strange but true, especially as the F key tonehole is in the correct acoustical position.
But this doesn't apply to cors anglais.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: wrowand
Date: 2006-06-05 17:04
I have a question about the low-B - C linkage mentioned earlier. What fingering do you use for high Eb?
My preferred fingering is /23B|-23 (where '/' indicates half-hole). This won't work with an oboe that has the low-B C linkage, will it?
Thanks,
-Woody
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-06-05 17:56
I use the short high Eb fingering - oxx G#| oxo C - or oxx G#| oox C depending which is more in tune (the top fingerplate is held almost closed with the adjusting screw).
And for high E - 8ve1 oxx G#| oxx Eb.
This is why French and American players don't have or recommend the B-C link as it interferes with the full fingerings in the altissimo register where the low B key is used.
But Howarth oboes made for the US market that have a B-C link fitted have plenty of adjustment there, so it can be completely disengaged by backing off the adjusting screw.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2006-06-06 05:31
Forked F's
<<Of course if the oboe that one has is of lesser quality, and the forked F is not acoustically functional, then it won't work>>
Ah, if there's no F resonance vent on lesser quality oboes, as in bare basic beginner's oboe keywork, there's always the E-flat key as resonance for forked F's, a very tricky maneuver indeed, especially when it's left E-flat (if you're right handed, must be harder for lefties on the right E-flat)
Yes, i like forked F's in flat keys, they're easier to play than Left F's, but not always, as in key signature 3 flats, top F, E natural, E-flat, D all in eighths repeated 3 times, then in quarters 3 times ... here Left F is much easier and cleaner
<<For some reason, if the reed isn't good, it (F) is THE most obvious note - it sounds horrible! >>
Interesting comment about reed and F, i've wondered about that, some reeds make F sound terrible and E wonderful, and other reeds make E terrible but make F sound pretty good any fingering, what's the reed trick for a happy compromise?
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2006-06-06 11:08
"I have a question about the low-B - C linkage mentioned earlier. What fingering do you use for high Eb?
My preferred fingering is /23B|-23 (where '/' indicates half-hole). This won't work with an oboe that has the low-B C linkage, will it?
Thanks,
-Woody"
I mentioned that my DM has a b-c linkage. Now i am totally confused and unsure. When i checked my oboe it has this banana key (is this what they usually term it as?) beside the low D open hole key. When i want to play a low C, B, or Bb without using the right hand little finger i simply extend my right hand ring finger to press the banana key as well as close the D hole.
So would definitely not affect the fingering Woody preferred, or would it?
And is that what you call the B-C linkage? I don't think it is, because i cannot play low B and Bb without either closing at least the banana key (which is in fact an extension of the low C key, but on the left side!) or the normal low C key.
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Author: wrowand
Date: 2006-06-06 13:03
HautboisJJ wrote:
"And is that what you call the B-C linkage? I don't think it is, because i cannot play low B and Bb without either closing at least the banana key (which is in fact an extension of the low C key, but on the left side!) or the normal low C key"
No. That's not the mechanism we're talking about. The banana key is for the low C-Db trill. That's about it.
If closing your low B key does not automatically close the low C then you don't have the low-B-to-C linkage.
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2006-06-06 14:02
Thus, my DM has no B-C linkage!
But still, the trill key is so useful i double it as an alternative to play the same awkward passage that we mentioned earlier, and it is just as useful! =)
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Author: fjozn
Date: 2006-06-08 04:29
Perhaps you can try looking for this etude: "Three hundred and seventy exercises for the Oboe" by James Brown. It contains all sort of awkward fingering from all ranges.
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