 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2013-02-13 01:00
Thanks for this. Gonna have to think a bit to respond to it, since scraping in the middle of the spine goes against everything I hold near and dear, but I am intrigued...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2013-02-13 02:02
Yes Robert, I thought the same thing as well, having read the Weber and talked a bit on these boards. If you have your Ledet book handy, an example of Mr. Gomberg's reeds are on the bottom of page 129. His style does not include a heart or back, but is more of a tip and then everything else sort of style. The seems to be a slight spine that seems to end at what would be about 53-55mm. The rest of the back and heart area appears scraped completely even, then there is a blend which is perpendicular to the rails (not triangular, maybe there is a slight arch), and then the tip.
The Ledet book really paints a good picture of how the styles of prominent oboist reeds vary so drastically. Maybe the chart works only for his style, but I did find it useful the other day in determining whether to work on the blend or back. I am interested in hearing your thoughts.
Drew S.
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2013-02-14 04:16
I'm glad you are working with the Ledet book. It was an eye opener for me years ago when I saw how many variations there are on simple themes: the 'simple' scrape (that was called the French scrape when I was as student in the 50's) to the many different versions of the 'American' (or Philadelphia or Tabuteau) scrape.
It's funny that the example of scraping on the spine over the heart is better shown on Harold's reed, which is much more of the 'standard model' than Ralph's... My immediate take on that is that it is possible to find the sort of compromise that will produce the sound you are looking for, but unless you put the 30 years behind that particular reed style into play, it's better to follow a more obvious solution... (Stevens Hewitt says, "Follow the beaten path. You will not have as much company as you think.")
Too many teachers offer Solutions that work for them but may not in another context. I think every suggestion is worth looking at, but shouldn't be considered gospel. Try it. Does it work?
I can't help the engineering bent of my brain and the need to put stuff into the larger context of 'why does that help the model work?'. Here's the broad strokes of my concept of reeds:
Because each fingered note on the oboe (or any wind instrument) basically makes a new instrument (different bore length, different bore shape, different tiny details) the reed still needs to be able to produce the entire overtone spectrum for that pitch in the same proportions in order to produce an even timbre over the range of the instrument. In short, the reed needs to be a white noise generator so that the instrument can select the frequencies it is asking for. Anything that interferes with this makes a 'bad reed'.
The short, thin parts of the reed vibrate at the higher frequencies, the longer, thicker parts vibrate at the lower frequencies. If you prefer the bright, Hollinger type sound, then the simple scrape should work well. If you wish a 'darker', more complex sound, then the many variations of the 'American' scrape are one approach to that. (And I prefer cream in my coffee...)
In the 'American' scrape, the thin part, the tip, is balanced across the thick part, the back, across the blend. The back could never vibrate from blowing pressure - it's way too thick. The blend transfers energy to the thick back from the easy blowing tip, but at the same time it restrains the freely blowing tip from blowing too freely, producing the 'balanced' sound we (I) prefer.
If the blend is too abrupt it detaches the tip, which then just goes, "tweeeee". if the blend is too gradual, the reed, if it plays at all, is resistant, and lacking higher frequencies.
A reed dial indicator is useful here. If your proportions are close to Martin Schuring's examples (which I like because his numbers match up with what has worked for me just about exactly), then if your heart is between .50mm and .45mm and your tip is between .05 and .07mm on a 70mm reed with a 4mm tip, then you are in the ballpark.
The crow will tell you where to go next. If it's too tippy, what's the resistance like? If it blows too easily, clip the tip. If there is a lot of resistance, thin the back. Either way you are balancing the teeter-totter across the blend.
Or decide that the resistance is right but not enough brightness. Dust the blend to free the tip a bit. These are the reed to reed decisions.
It's my theory that the back is a single architectural unit, divided symmetrically across the spine. If you consider the cross section of a reed blade through the heart. The un-scraped cross section was a crescent moon shape. Now it has two flat planes scraped on the top curve of the crescent, giving a cross-sectional shape which is thicker at the rails, thinner at the center of the channels and thicker again at the spine. Each of these four channels (hopefully symmetrical) starts near the wrapping at the full thickness of the cane, gets thinner as the scrape deepens and, usually is a bit deeper behind the heart, coming back up to what we used to call the 'hump', the same area now called the heart.
Somewhere along these smooth transitions from thick to thin is a spot that will resonate with most of the low frequencies. Somewhere along the blend to the tip is a place which will resonate with the high frequencies. Ideally you will have the balance you are looking for. If not, the crow will tell you what is happening most easily. You need to free up the stuff that isn't. Or inhibit a too free tip by clipping it, but check the resistance first.
Anything else you do, like windows in the back, will free up some portion of the spectrum but usually at the expense of something else, so be aware of all the results of your experiments, not jut, "did it get easier...". And choppy knife cuts are a serious offender in this department, no matter John Mack's meat ax reed on page 135!
Sorry for the long winded reply, but you caused me to try to distill years of reed instruction into a single post. And my initial reluctance is because I'm reluctant to break the divider between my two vibrating channels, but maybe his heart is too thick to vibrate easily. We don't have enough information. But I really think the model with a symmetrical tip and blend to the back and a symmetrical back with two channels on either side of a spine is the best starting place.
Think I'll go drink a beer now...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2013-02-14 05:07
There's a lot of good information in that post above Robert.
For me, right now, still finding my reeds, it's all grain of salt (referring to the Gomberg Reed Adjustment paper). I'm getting closer, which I'm happy for. My reeds are just a tad flat, which I've decided has everything to do with how I approach the back. This is why I have no clue how Mr Gomberg made his reeds play. His scrape to me looks like they would be 3 steps flat, but I guess it worked for him. I would never try to approach a reed like his, but it is interesting to see. I aim to make reeds that appear like John Mack's and David Weber's.
That one John Mack reed does baffle me. Did he chop at it so nobody knew what he did, or did he play that reed as such? I mean, David Weber has a Mack Reed in his book, and it's not hack-sawed. The de Lancie reed, however, is a bit dug out, and how James Caldwell got to play his reeds in tune will always baffle me.
The information you gave me the other day has helped my tip work tremendously. I feel confident in what I am capable of doing tip to heart. Now it's getting my work to play in tune. As I said before, I believe it's a matter of support from the back, so I have 5 reeds going right now, and 4 of them I've probably already messed up. They're not terrible, so I still work on them, just to see what happens. At least I can try to learn how to fix a troubled reed. I'm waiting to see how this 5th one turns out before I continue on with more reeds. I'm optimistic I've done a good job there.
That beer sounds delicious, but I think I'll have to wait for mine till tomorrow.
Drew S.
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2013-02-14 18:46
Attachment: Lickman reed.jpg (19k)
Drew -
Keep in mind that there are so many variations out there because what works for one player doesn't work so well for another. I can't see how those reeds would work for me, either, but the reed is just part of the whole setup, so something we don't know about made it possible. Or necessary.
Attached is a pic of a Steven Lickman oboe reed that exemplifies How Tiings Ought to Be.
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2013-02-14 22:22
The Lickman reed is a nice looking reed. Interesting toward the back. From the tip to blend it has very nice shape. I don't see a definite end to the heart into the back, which is prominent on many reeds (Mack, Weber, Caldwell, et al...). This reeds resembles the Lifschey example to me (from page 122 of the Weber book). I cannot suppose what this reed would play like.
I feel confident in my tip shaping, and now need to address concerns in the back. How this Lickman reed ends seems like an interesting technique. I don't know if it would work for me. Anytime I cut that deeply from the back so close to the wrap, I get a flat reed that will not get up to pitch no matter how much I clip and thin.
Drew S.
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2013-02-14 23:53
This is the reed design I grew up with before 'windows' became part of the obligatory architecture. It's how many of us made reeds back in the 60's...
If you think of the entire back as one large window, then you simply scrape the entire back thinner, leaning into the rear of it a little more heavily as the heart arrives at it's ideal thickness (as determined by resistance and response). If you don't want to thin the heart more but still want more low end response you can either lengthen the scrape (although too much of that will cause your upper octave G & G# to become flabby) or scrape more deeply in the rear. Or you can scrape the rear with a catch, now called a window...
The 3-window style is interesting because each of the 3 locations has its own, distinct effect with just a light touch of the knife. Worth playing with just to explore that effect. Take a windowless reed and try it...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2013-02-15 13:23
I will definitely keep the 3 windows in mind as I continue with new reeds.
In regards to lengthening the scrape for low notes, I feel like this technique also has the unpleasant side effect of making my reeds flat. Maybe some reeds I've made too long to start with. Lately I started marking exactly where I want my scrape to begin, namely 55mm. I'm not sure if this is a good starting place, but I don't think I've heard any reed maker say "start here". Anyhow, staring the scrape at 55mm has created some not so terrible reeds that are sharp even at 71mm. Good, I can work with that. I couldn't work with flat. So I lengthened the back down a mm to 54mm, and it dropped the pitch to near 440, and it's still 71mm. Perfect. Now the reed is raucous for some reason, but I don't believe it's because of lengthening the back. The purpose of this particular reed was to just get something up to pitch, no matter how it sounded, so I did some non conventional things, and I think I probably took too much cane from the rails.
So I'm pretty happy with where I'm at with my knowledge of tipwork, blend, and heart. Pitch is the biggest concern right now. If you saw what I did to some reeds it would probably make you cringe, but I don't know what I'm doing, so I try, fail, and learn. I feel pitch is a lengthy topic, as it seems to be effected not only by the direct scrape, but by what has been done to the areas above it. I would assume this is the reason why so many reeds look very different.
Drew S.
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2013-02-15 17:08
You're doing it right, Drew. Keep it up!
BTW, a colleague of mine is fond of commenting that it is better tu be sharp than to be out of tune...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2013-02-15 23:01
Yes, well, I heard a story that an oboe player that I don't know the name of used to pull out when tuning the orchestra, then push in to perform the concert. That'll keep those violins, trumpets, and flutes in check.
Drew S.
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Author: dolce oboe
Date: 2013-03-25 02:41
amazing--- thanks for sharing. I love the fact that he adjusts every where I fear to tread!
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Author: Oboehotty
Date: 2013-04-15 16:11
I think much of "adjustments" are a result of your personal method for making reeds. Personally, I use a combination of the David Weber and Joe Shalita approach (both GREAT reed making manuals by the way). A good friend is a direct descendant of the John Mack approach to scraping reeds. She cannot play on one of my reeds (cannot physically get a sound) and I cannot physically play on one of hers. That being said, I would not use my adjustments to get certain aspects of a reed on one of her reeds and visa versa. So, I think it goes back to what works for each individual.
Based on the photos in the Ledet book and some others of Gomberg's reeds, they were very different in structure than what most of us have learned over the past so many years and therefore his adjustments probably won't give the same results on a...shall I say "more structured" reed? Just a thought...
I have always been taught that there isn't one particular adjustment for any reed that will yield the same result. One must know how a reed functions and what part of the reed gives certain qualities/parts to the crow and then adjust based on what you hear from the crow using physics. Just as we won't make the same reed for a Laubin oboe as we would a Loree, etc. No two reeds will respond the same way to specific scraping ideas and adjustments.
Every time we make a scrape there is a positive AND a negative reaction to something else in the reed. Reeds are all about balance friends :-)
Shawn
Professor of Oboe - Youngstown State University
Howland Local Schools - MS Dir. Of Bands/HS Asst. Dir (Marching, Symphonic)
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