 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: Loliver
Date: 2012-10-02 12:17
Hi all,
Long story short, I auditioned for my university orchestra on oboe, and got in, but I have to play Cor Anglais, which is fine. If anyone knows what the part for Elgar/Payne symphony 3 is like...
The problem is that at the moment all my reeds are very very flat in pitch, and I am really struggling to bring them up. They are very open at the tip, which makes response quite bad...
In short, how do I get them to close up without collapsing completely, and raise the pitch without having to use my lips like a vice...
Thanks
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-10-02 12:41
Are your reeds wired? I presume they are which is normal for cor reeds.
Soak them in hot water for around 5 minutes and crow them. Then try them on your cor and shift the wire up (if you can) and squeeze it with pliers to close the aperture down.
If the reeds are still too flat with a narrow aperture, trim about 1mm off the tip and then scrape the top 2-3mm of the tip to thin it down to make it the same strength as before. Don't scrape at the base of the scrape as this will make them play flat again.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Loliver
Date: 2012-10-02 12:55
Ok, thanks. I will try that later.
I'm hoping that, like on oboe, the note 'E' (concert 'A') is a bit sharper than the rest? If not then I dunno what is going on...
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-10-02 13:15
The E tonehole on cors is set much higher (and is smaller in diameter) than it should be so it's in easy reach for RH finger 3, so the tone quality usually suffers on this note and the F vent mechanism is designed to remain open to help it.
Tune to an A or B (concert pitch D or E) instead if your E (xxx|xxo) is sharp.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2012-10-02 19:16
What is the length of your finished reeds?
It may surprise you how short the reed can/needs to be.
52 -54 mm for the most part. All my finished reeds fall into that range regardless of source and shape. I do not gouge or shape the ehorn cane because commercial stuff seems to work well already.
The reed I played on this recording is 52 mm finished.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EBLVrvu3CA
I was taught the trick to intonation is to know the playing test for you instrument in terms of reeds. By that I mean one or two important notes that signal when things are coming into line.
For my Loree ehorn, its the 2nd octave f# and g... they really must not sag (reguire no biting).
Anyway, I learned that from a pro ehorn teacher in the US Natl Orchestra years ago and it serves me well.
-Craig
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Author: Loliver
Date: 2012-10-02 20:06
wow...my reeds are 58mm long...
The main problem notes are 'E' and 1st finger C (its a thumbplate model), with the E being sharp, and the 'C's being dull and muddy, and quite hissy.
I don't make my own reeds, so I have to buy them...and 'make-do-and-mend', but most Cor reeds to me feel far, far too open, and so I have to use my lips like a vice to try to bring it down...
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2012-10-02 20:45
Chris's advice is exactly what I would do.
I play short scrape as well, and all my current reeds are 57.5-58. My wire is sitting around 7-8mm above the thread. It needs to be higher on a cor reed than an oboe reed (if you play on a wired oboe reed) - think proportions! I possibly rely on the wire a little more than I should, but I so far have had no response/tone/tuning issues. Wire on a short scrape cor reed can be your best friend for the opening of the tip!
And, having played on both a Howarth S20 and a Fox 510, I personally found that if I got the E (concert A) spot on, I had to work to keep other notes up to pitch. When making/adjusting your reeds, still work with fingered A as your reference, rather than a concert A.
Have fun! I'm not playing cor this semester and I miss it already... :(
Rachel
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2012-10-02 22:00
If you are buying, I heartily recommend the English horn reeds supplied by Robert Morgan of the Chicago Lyric Opera. http://chicagoreedcompany.com/aboutus.html. Amazingly stable, lovely color, fantastic response, superb intonation.
His oboe reeds are really good, too. But there is just nothing in the world like his EH reeds, IMO.
Susan
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Author: Joseph Tomasso
Date: 2012-10-03 13:43
Do you play on american-scrape reeds? If so, 52 mm is really short for a reed and would likely cause you to scrape so much out of the back your pitch would be incredibly wobbly (both in pitch and tone).
I use Carolyn Hove's reed dimensions (solo english horn of the LA Phil, and besides being the best ehorn player I have ever heard, she is the nicest most positive influence, if you can apply to her yearly masterclasses!). Without getting into too much detail my finished reeds are 57-58 but the top of my heart is around 52-54. This way I don't have to overly define the back of the reed and focus on blending the windows to the heart, and then having a balanced tip (not having to scrape it to oblivion to vibrate).
I also no longer wire my reeds (another suggestion by the amazing Carolyn Hove) and find that if I choose the right shape, dimension, and tie length the opening is staple without a wire. I only seem to need a wire when I overscrape the rails, lose too much of the spine, or have made some sort of error in the scraping process.
If you're buying reeds from someone else I suppose it doesn't matter too much, but I would suggest starting to scrape some as soon as possible to get to know your instrument. I just switched to a Hiniker bocal and find myself changing the blend of my reeds (I don't have to scrape as much to get a singing quality which is great for pitch and tone). I think if I was not making my own I would be really struggling to find my "voice" if that makes any sense.
-joseph
Bachelor of Music, Sax/Clarinet Performance (2005, 06)
Master of Music, Multiple Woodwind Performance (2008)
Master of Music, Oboe Performance (2013)
Gainesville Chamber Orchestra (Clarinet)
University of Florida 2010-2011(Visiting Lecturer in Woodwi
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2012-10-03 23:24
I'd suggest you get the David Weber ReedManual. The dimensions show a range of recommended shortest to longest, thinnest to widest, etc.
My teacher was solo ehorn in the Nat'l Symphony for a lot of years and both he and Weber's advice suggest using wire to control the tip opening is really a bad choice.
It is there to promote resonance and stability on certain notes which can be a really tough concept.
Personally I find the longer reeds cause more induced problems in intonation, color changes between neighboring notes, 3rd octave false starts, etc.
Depending on how much bark is left above the staple, I can actually see a reed of 53 mm to 56 working fine.
But I am not exaggerating on the reed length working at 52. No shorter. It is some sort of boundary.
And finding a reed that works w/o biting is really important. In my experience longer than 54 tends to require a little too much from the chops.
Very little embouchure change should be needed from octave to octave.
Let it vibrate and let the room do its part in the tone production and development. (Listening to recorded samples at various distances is a great teacher about that point.)
And.... ehorn is great fun to play. Really, more so than oboe. It can really wail.
Post Edited (2012-10-03 23:26)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-10-03 23:37
In the UK we tend to use U scrape wired cor reeds - although there are some who prefer long W scrape, but still wired to control the aperture.
I presume Oliver uses a U scrape as they're the most common ones available ready made in the UK.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-10-04 03:19
mine are 55-ish, some shorter, but not by much.
I've never found making EH reeds nearly as challenging as making good oboe reeds, or maybe I'm just lucky that way.
GoodWinds
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Author: Loliver
Date: 2012-10-04 12:22
Well, i managed to get one reed working Ok-ish...but the other two are still a bit ropey.
At the moment in rehearsal, it is not the most fun instrument to play...my time signatures are different to the other oboes (4/4 when they're in 12/8 and vice versa), and a weird scale in the middle of a passage when everyone else is at p or pp...
I'm sure it will get better...hopefully before we have to play it for the man who finished off Elgar's 3rd symphony, Payne or something :/
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Author: oboi
Date: 2012-10-05 06:31
EH reeds are surprisingly much more forgiving than oboe reeds. Compared to my oboe reeds, which are still a horrible work in progress, I've only made a few EH reeds and almost all of them are playable. And no matter how much I scrape they still sound okay (and more or less in tune). I use wire, otherwise they are too open, though. You really need to play with a very open embouchure, so squeezing the reed is a bad bad thing.
That being said, I was making some awful noises when I all of a sudden had to play EH in band at a high level. Well, not so much the blowing but the fingering (everything was like in A-flat major). Blasted finger spacings is still rather wide for my hands. Getting past that (except for the damned low C# a left Eb), it's a treat to play.
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Author: Loliver
Date: 2012-10-05 10:48
The main problem with the reeds I have at the moment is that the opening at the tip is far too wide, and so I have to bite to compensate, and on long notes it is hard to maintain, so tuning goes wild...
The fact that the reeds arrived having opening of around 2mm should have rung some alarm bells, as obviously gap gets wider when wet... so I am reaching the conclusion that my current reeds are beyond saving, indeed one of them cracked when I tried to play it...
So...anyone recommend any good Cor Anglais reeds, that aren't too resistant, and aren't too open, that I can get hold of in the UK...by wednesday...
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Author: Loliver
Date: 2012-10-05 16:09
Just a thought...
could part of the problem of tuning be the instrument itself? I should point out that its a Boosey and Hawkes Imperial, and does appear to have been made by someone who has little, if any, engineering skill or knowledge of what a Cor Anglais is... Like pushing the G# key down, which presses on the C/D trill bar, which then bends alarmingly... Also the tip of the first octave key being clipped by the thumbplate every time the thumbplate is pressed, making for some wild notes...
Just wondering if the instrument itself would have any affects on tuning as well...
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-10-05 17:18
I can't say I've been all that impressed with the B&H Imperial cors I've worked on - their oboes weren't bad (although archaic), but I suppose as they didn't make so many cors, there wasn't much in the way of research or development on them.
I wonder what Ward&Winterbourne cors were like?
But what I do like about cor reeds as was mentioned earlier is they aren't anywhere near as picky as oboe reeds and will let you get away with murder.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ceri
Date: 2012-10-05 19:52
I've got a Ward and Winterbourne cor. It has a nice rich tone (particularly in the bottom register) but the written E is very sharp. I got some improvement on it by changing to a Loree crook but it remains problematic. Putting the C key down improves the tuning of the octave E but I haven't found a satisfactory solution for the bottom E so any suggestions would be welcome.
If I tune to the E then every other note on the instrument would be out of tune.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-10-05 21:09
Low E on all cors needs a complete rethink - it's the worst note on practically every cor.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ceri
Date: 2012-10-05 22:05
Is there anything you can do to make the low E more in tune?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-10-05 22:17
The tonehole is already too small to add any tuning wax without further compromising the tone quality, so it's something we have to put up with until someone redesigns the tonehole layout and mechanism for the right hand main action.
Ideally the E tonehole (RH3) should be placed further down the lower joint and made much larger in diameter, but that would create too much of a stretch for the right hand fingers and the low C/C#/Eb cluster will also have to be moved further down as well.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Loliver
Date: 2012-10-09 12:40
Hi all, and sorry to keep banging on about the same topic...
So, I explained my problem to someone in the oboe department at 'that famous oboe shop in London', and they recommended some new reeds, but these are even flatter.... as in a C registers as a flat E when it should be an F... and the tips on 2 of them aren't too bad on the opening front, and they are shorter than my last reeds by about 2mm, but I would the situation is infinitely worse, as now all I can do is play imitating a ferry, as everything is sooo flat...
In a nutshell, anything I can do at all before tomorrow night to try to sound half decent?
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Author: Loliver
Date: 2012-10-09 13:13
Half an hour later....
Oh good, one of the reeds has collapsed at the tip, and it still isnt up to pitch....
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Author: oboi
Date: 2012-10-09 22:46
Do you have a very long bocal? My 2 bocals are less than a semitone different, but definitely makes a difference and I choose the bocal depending on which reed I use. You went to the very famous shop, do they have bocals for rent (or on a trial basis)?
I'm no expert, but personally, if I was experimenting, I'd scrape the tip down a bit lower and clip, and if it is too open after that use reed wire to adjust the opening. Make sure there aren't any leaks in the reed or where the reed attaches to the bocal. And since there seems to be a bit of leeway in how you hold the instrument, that affects a bit the pitch, whether you hold it farther out or closer. Enough breath support too, so it doesn't sag.
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-10-10 04:55
Once, long ago, I tried to use my EH reeds on another person's instrument.
It did NOT work: no matter how hard I tried or what adjustments I made, the pitch was low.
I think the bocal does have something to do with pitch; it could be its inner diameter or its length or both, even the thickness of its walls.
Sometimes I think reed makers should specify the instrument, i.e. either state the reed was made to play on an x-model Loree, or Marigaux, or specify what brands/types of instruments the reed will definitely work on... because I'm SURE that makes a difference.
There is always the factor of the Player, but so many technical variables come into play.
I am sure, though, that you will eventually find the standard that works for you (and your instrument/bocal) and that this problem will fade into the past. In the meantime, keep trying and don't lose your patience or your persistence.
GoodWinds
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Author: Loliver
Date: 2012-10-10 11:14
The crook/bocal I use is a Howarth XL2, which is the middle one out of lengths 1-3. One of the first things I did when I got the instrument was to change crook/bocal, as the original Boosey and Hawkes ones made it sound very tinny. I think I tried Howarth XL1 and 2, and a Loree 1 and 2.
I don't know what it is, but over the past month my oboe playing has improved massively, but I seem to have lost all ability to play Cor well, even though I practice them both as much as each other. I'm trying not to lose my patience, but I am bricking it as I have 6 hours of rehearsals this week, all of which on a reed which works well for about 1 hour, then slowly rises in pitch.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2012-10-10 14:49
Keep your pliers handy and give the sides of the reed (at the wire) a squeeze to open the aperture up if it starts going sharp. When reeds close up they will go sharp.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Loliver
Date: 2012-10-12 13:42
Hey all....
Bought some more reeds, and 1 of them seems to close up ridiculously fast, and the other 2 I can't close and will not play at all, even after using methods described above. If I get them moist and then try to squeeze them shut, all I get is that both pieces of cane just go dead straight, so I end up with gaps at the sides for the last 3mm, and they still won't make a sound....
so...is there anything I can do, or should I just...well, I don't know...
Thanks for all advice so far....
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Author: Loliver
Date: 2012-11-17 16:09
Sorry to resurrect an old-ish thread...
Hi all,
need some help with Cor Anglais reeds (still)...
Anyone know what I can do about Cor Anglais reeds in general, as I've tried about 5 or 6 makes, and have not got on with any of them at all. Everyone seems to be under the impression that Cor reeds are much more forgiving, but I find them the worst I've ever come across, beating Oboe and even Eb clarinet in terms of sheer anguish...
Problems- If the reeds are too open, I have to bite ridiculously hard to close them, and I can't sustain this for very long, and tuning becomes wild as my lips tire.
Sharpness- If a reed looks alright, it never is, as it starts off ok, then gradually rises in pitch until all notes are sharp, even with the softest embouchure I can make, which verges on the ridiculous
Reed collapse- Again reed looks ok, then just fails completely after a matter of minutes...
Breath resistance- The ultimate killer for me.... I thin the tip as I would an oboe reed, and whereas on the oboe reed it works 80%+ of the time, it has never worked on Cor reeds, and it has no effect at all, and only causes the reed to collapse. I did try a slightly softer reed, but could never get any of the 3 up to pitch at all, so I'm kinda stuck between reeds that I can play, but are very sharp and some that are very flat...
Upper register impossible- Essentially any note from G# upwards is impossible without biting massively, resulting in me having to finger the note a semitone lower (i.e fingering thumbplate+1st finger+2nd octave key to get C# etc...)
Warbling on low notes- normally I could get away with this, but in orchestra I have several entries on low D or C# at pp, and I just get evil stares from the conductor everytime...
Tone quality- I would say...dull, murky, cloudy...any negative adjective really...
Anyway, sorry for the long post, and essentially a long rant, but it's just...infuriating...particularly when the other 3 oboes chime in with 'Cor Anglais is so much easier than oboe', although one doesn't anymore as I let her try it, and now she has sympathy for me...
Also, I should point out that I have none of these problems on oboe, and its not the instrument, as I have exactly the same problem on the 3 Cor Anglais' I've ever played (B&H Imperial, Howarth S40 and S5).
I don't know if my technique is wrong, it probably is to be honest due to having to compensate for too hard reeds, but someone said that your Cor Anglais embouchure should be as soft, if not slightly softer, than yours on oboe.
If anyone could recommend a make that I could try that may be a bit easier to use, that would be awesome (preferrably from somewhere where I can order them and get them quickly rather than having to get them made in 3 weeks or something, and yes I know this is asking a lot)
Thanks for reading it....
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Author: Wes
Date: 2012-11-17 19:13
Try putting the reed in a paper clip overnight to close it down some. You might find that a Loree 1H bocal is compatible and sounds good. I require an EH reed for my Loree to crow Cs on the tip and the thread edge but I'm sure that many would not agree. I like a 55mm length, use a wire mostly, and make a American scrape on a -1N RDG shape. Yes, I've tried making them without wire, but it is easier to use a wire for me. My teachers never helped very much on EH.
Good luck!
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Author: Loliver
Date: 2012-11-17 19:17
Thanks! Will try that
I think the idea of the reds being easier to handle is due to them being more 'open', but I find that all my air just goes down the middle and the sides don't vibrate at all...am I the only person to ever have such issues with this instrument??
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