 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-09-19 11:11
Hello Friends,
I had my second oboe lesson a few days ago. Reed making was the main topic, as well as some phrasing. I was also told to listen to Placedo Domingo.
Anyhow, I'm still not getting this reed making thing correct. My finished reeds are turning out too resistant for my playing style (I think I like a softer reed, to match my flute embouchure). I take a little from the heart to make it softer, and it becomes flat. Then I clip the tip, and it becomes too resistant. Quite a conundrum. Any suggestions?
Drew S.
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-09-19 11:51
Hi ... Welcome to Reed making .............. headaches
There are many ways of loosening up a reed. Each will have a different impact upon the response and tone.
For example, thinning the corners of the tip blend, scrapping lightly on the tip blend, scraping the sides of the heart, fanning the tip, or scraping/deepening the windows etc............ You need to try them all .... lots of trial and error here.
One most frustrating aspects of certain reeds is the hard/flat reed ... you cut to bring up the pitch and scrape to make it responsive. It can become a vicious cycle. If squeezing the opening closed doesn't work etc. Many times I just throw the reed out. It's just not worth the time or effort.
Mark
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2012-09-19 12:04
Can you post a backlit photo of your reed, and (if possible) one with raked lighting, the tip towards the camera?
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-09-19 15:05
Attachment: 001.JPG (109k)
Attachment: 002.JPG (94k)
Trial 2....OK, this worked. They are pics of back lighting and raked lighting. This is exactly the new reed I talked about. It's finished at 69.5mm on a 47mm Chudnow tube.
Post Edited (2012-09-19 15:07)
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-09-19 18:31
Hi,
Two observations: from the photos I think you can scrape/dust more from the sides of the heart in the channels as wel as in the windows. You can also extend/ or scrape the sides of tip on the side of the blend and dust the slope of the blend. What size ........ Make shaper tip do you use? Maybe you should try a narrower shape.
Others may see things differently. Without playing the reed it is diificult to really know.
Mark
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Author: Wes
Date: 2012-09-20 06:28
You are to be commended for trying to make reeds. They have said that after you have made a bushel basket full of them you are probably doing ok.
As far as I can tell, no two people make reeds alike. But on looking at your reeds, I could not expect to be successful with them because they differ in many ways from the reeds I like. I like a shorter scrape, a more defined hump to tip step, a more tapered tip, a better scraped tip, less slippage showing on the sides, narrower near the thread, all extra thread cut off, and that is without even trying them, crowing them, or scraping the back and hump as I like. That is after already deciding on which shaper to use.
If you play in an orchestra, you need to play some long tones very softly and in tune so that you don't interfere with the other players. Today, I played with a group playing a Mozart piano concerto and Fingal's Cave. One had to play long soft high Ds, Cs, and Bs without driving the conductor and the violins out of their gourds. The reed has to be almost perfect for that, which will also work for musical shows.
Please don't feel I'm being critical but that I've offered honest opinions, shich I think you wanted. Good luck!
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2012-09-20 12:32
Drew,
The reed looks good, if a little unfinished - you definitely have the right concept. One thing I noticed is that you have torn a sliver off the edge of the tip. This happens if your knife is not quite sharp enough since it grabs the cane but does not cut, so the cane is pulled loose.
This can also happen if you are trying to adjust the sides of the tip with a convex plaque, which "presents" too much cane to the blade. Try a flat plaque.
I cannot see the other side of the reed but remember that a balanced reed has four quadrants, all scraped the same way. compare often, and consider using a micrometer initially, for consistency.
Overall, it looks like you can take a little more from the channels (especially from the back), and refine the extreme corners by dusting with a very sharp knife on a flat plaque.
Try this, in order:
1. If the reed is still too open (this does NOT seem the case with this reed), squeeze the tip against a flat plaque, and try again
2. scrape the channels of the back to the "catch" area, and try again
3. dust the channels of the heart with a sharp knife, and try again
4. LIGHTLY DUST with an EXTREMELY SHARP knife the corners of the tip and try again
5. LIGHTLY DUST with an EXTREMELY SHARP knife the edges of the tip, and try again.
When I say "try again", I mean it. Play through a page of music, before you decide you need to adjust some more. You cannot replace cane you have scraped off, so make sure the reed really needs scraping before you adjust it with a knife.
Do not be surprised if you have to do this again the first couple of times you play on the reed. When you scrape you weaken the cane fibers, but they recover when given a chance to rest. Using a very sharp knife reduces the pressure on the fibers as you scrape, so the reed changes less between sessions.
Let us know how you get on!
J.
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-09-20 13:03
Drew,
One more suggestion:
WAIT! BE PATIENT!
Reeds need time to "break-in"
I take my time and adjust the reed over a period of 5 -10 days. As you play them usually their attributes change for the better. Many tmes I was ready to throw a reed out .... in a few days and continuous adjustments they became quite good.
Mark
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Author: johnt
Date: 2012-09-20 16:06
Drew,
For a sharp knife, use the Scary Sharp method; wet/dry sandpaper affixed to plate glass nominal one quarter inch thick. 320/400/600/1000/1500/2000 Sharpen dry. Two dozen strokes backwards & forwards with the leading edged dead flat on the glass in sequence I've indicated; then do the trailing edge at at a forty degree angle (the groove on the fleshy part of your thumb will maintain the angle) a half dozen strokes forward only. Same sequence. Leather strop on a plywood backing refines the blade even further. This works & is dirt cheap compared to the cost of water stones today. Use 3M 77 spray glue to affix the paper to the glass. Avoids the mess & concomitant clean-up of water & slurry & you'll have a sharp blade in about three minutes. Email me if you want the dimensions of the paper & glass; I don't have those memorized.
You're on your way; just don't give up.
Best,
john
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-09-20 23:22
I'm with Mark: Give your reeds time to settle in before adjusting them too much or too soon. I'm an 'incrementalist' reed maker so this happens automatically.
Secondly, remember that amid all the specific and detailed advice on how to adjust your reed until it works 'just so', remember that reed vibration is a matter of ratio -- the thickness here and the thin-ness there all combine to resonate TOGETHER to make sound and response. We sometimes forget this in an effort to 'zoom in' and identify which part of the reed isn't working.
This way of thinking usually backfires for me and results in the 'loop of frustration' that Mark described earlier: adjust HERE, re-adjust THERE, then repeat ad infinitum...
I'm working now to build a solid reed from the out-set, with a goal that once I'm happy with response I'll have to make MINIMAL adjustments if any. For years I've made a reed "playable" but am seeing lately that starting carefully and slowly (with LOTS of playing attempts between each and every step) might yield a better (and longer-lasting) product in the long run.
Courage, tenacity, patience and SUCCESS to you.
GoodWinds
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-09-21 04:23
Hi, Drew - Congrats on the lessons - that's a good way to focus your attention on the details...
A couple of thoughts looking at your photos: the surface texture of the blade looks smooth, so your knife is sharp, the most important single thing about reed making. The cuts are symmetrical, so your basic concept and knife technique are accomplished.
You have a skinny line of bark down the rails. That's the blueprint I use as well, with the thickest part of the heart at .50mm to no less than .43mm. More wood than that inhibits the vibration in the back...
What do you hear when you crow the reed? My guess is that it is a bit tippy, more 'Tweeee' than the gargly rattle of the 'ideal' reed, but looks can be deceiving...
I think of the blend as being the most important part of the reed. The back, if you cut off the tip, couldn't possibly vibrate with human wind pressure. The tip by itself vibrates easily and freely but has a bright, harsh, uncomplex sound. The blend is the ramp that channels the energy from the free-blowing tip up to the back and drives the lower frequency vibrations in the back. In order to do the best job, the blend needs to be a smooth ramp rather than a jagged staircase, and that's what caught my eye.
The attached, very badly drawn, sketch shows what I'm talking about. The imaginary line at the base of the blend is, nominally, at 66mm from the bottom of the staple. [Unless you prefer reeds longer or shorter than 70mm. Adjust accordingly]
The blend on the left is what I see on your photo, about the same distance around the arc of the blend. The sketch on the right is the idealized version. You will note two differences, first that the nose on the idealized version extends further out into the length of the tip and second, that the sides of the blend do, indeed blend into the sides of the reed.
That little, tiny bit of cane where the curve of the blend meets the edge of the reed can be the difference between a reed that is responsive and one that isn't. From that point, where the knife is almost vertical to the cane, the shape of the blend should sweep more gradually to the center of the tip. You can then adjust (over time as previous posters have pointed out) the angle, or slope, of the blend to achieve the balance tou are looking for. The more gradual the slope, the more the back inhibits the tip. The steeper the slope the more freedom the tip has until it is detached completely from the back. The trick is to dust the slope of the blend, increasing the freedom of the tip until it balances the back at the level of resistance you wish. If it plays well but is too 'hard', take some wood out of the back and re-balance the tip. And, as others pointed out, do this over time. And leave the reed a bit on the difficult side. As it breaks in it will become more tractible and mellow and your chops will thank you as well.
More on this topic later, but enough of my opinions for now. jhoyla's suggestion of raked light is an absolute must for reed making, in my book. Raking light shows all the surface details that are obscured with direct or transmitted light, though both of those are important, too. And Ron Ford is absolutely right: Martin Schuring's website
http://www.public.asu.edu/~schuring/Oboe/Reedguide.html
is a wonderful resource. I say that not only because he's a great player and teacher, but because the reed dimensions he posts on his site are exactly the same ones I developed over my own long career. <grin>
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-09-21 13:57
Thank you everyone for your input.
Robert,
I didn't get those sketches you mentioned in your post, and I am interested in seeing them.
Drew S.
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2012-09-21 16:27
Boy Robert Hubbard, do you give an excellent reed critique AND explanation of WHY the blend/ramp should be 'more gradual, less stair-step'. I will benefit, as will whoever reads your post and remains on a learning curve. So Thank You.
GoodWinds
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-09-21 19:42
That ain't gonna work either. Email me with your contact info, Drew (and anyone else who wishes) and I'll send it directly to you. Meanwhile I'll open a new thread devoted to figuring out what isn't working so we don't clutter this one up any worse. Sorry for the mess, folks...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2012-09-21 19:50
huboboe wrote:
> That ain't gonna work either.
What kind of file are you trying to post & how large?
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-09-21 19:55
Attachment: Tip and blend.jpg (133k)
Problem solved: the file was too large. Downsized it and here ya go:
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-09-22 04:33
Thanks, I have more cane coming very soon, so I hope to use some of what I've learned here to try and get this together.
Additionally, does anyone adjust the staple before tying on reeds? Mr. Schneider is convinced that adjusting the slope, so that it does not taper much close to the cork, and tapers rather steeply at the tip will help my reedmaking. In fact, he adjusts all his staples, of which he gets in bulk at $1.15 a piece. He had a mandrel specially made for him to help achieve this. He gave me 4 staples to use myself, plus 1 reed he made and 1 he and I made together. I have adjusted my Chudnow CA staples to follow suit, ordering a smaller mandrel at assist (It is a normal mandrel, but the Chudnow mandrel I was using is larger because his staples are slightly larger).
Drew S.
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2012-09-22 14:11
Drew,
I don't adjust my staples .... although .. I choose to use a Glotin staple wtih a less tapered opening.
From my experience ... I found that the greatest variable in my reed making is the curve of the gouge. When I had a new blade made specifically for my shaper tip, staple, etc .......... my reeds become very pitch stable.
Of course .... you still need to make a reed that plays well!
Mark
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-09-22 21:01
Mark -
As you know from other threads here, staples are an important variable in the reed making process.
Chudnow tubes are cleverly designed and elegantly made. They are also way to the large opening side of the spectrum and rounder than most others.
Not necessarily a bad thing, but if you are going to make changes to them they will need to be larger changes to arrive at the same point on the small end than with most other tubes and the opening will always be larger.
You might not be able to get to where your teacher gets, starting from that place. I would strongly advise you to use your teacher's staples until you are comfortable with your final results before you change the staple variable.
Just a thought...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-09-22 22:25
It's not actually to change the diameter of the staple, but the angle of approach of the two reeds. Basically, with a steeper slope at the end, the reed will push itself together more then when it wasn't adjusted. I like the larger diameter of the Chudnow tubes and how it works with my oboe. It's the angle of the reed that is the concern about. The tip winds up being slightly more ovular after adjustment, though the change is minuscule at the tip.
Drew S.
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-09-23 01:37
Fair enough. I was concerned that if there were enough difference that the effect your tubes and your teacher's tubes had on the final result (given everything but the knifework being equal) it might be more difficult for your teacher to distinguish between your knifework and the effect of the tube.
I have had that trouble with some students and have had on occasion to say, "OK, your reeds work, but if you make them that way, I don't know how to tell you how to make them work better".
Whatever (as my son says), I'm sure you'll work it out over time. We all do/did and there is no one right approach.
Except, of course, to make at least one reed a day into the foreseeable future...
Cheers,
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-09-23 03:35
Just throwing a bunch of stuff out there and seeing what people say. I think that's why we continue to post on these boards really. Mr Schneider studied under John Mack, and I think maybe Delancie (however you spell it) as well, and is highly regarded here in Philadelphia. That being said, I never take any one position, no matter how highly esteemed, as fact. There are a lot of variables and a lot of right ways to achieve things. I get new cane Monday, and I will use both staple types and try a few scrapes myself. I don't want to burn too much cane needlessly, so I have a lesson a week from Tuesday, and we'll go over reed making from the start again. Last lesson we started midway through, and I'm convinced I mess them up from the first scrape on. I hope if comes off that I am very grateful for everyone's help on these boards, and that I look up to all of your opinions, and try to add what I can as well.
Drew S.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2012-09-23 07:18
The staple adjusting thing is a something that many reedmakers have done in the past. I know some reputable oboists have special contraptions they use to smash the staple to a different shape. I think since you're new to the reedmaking thing, the best bet is just to find a staple that works, and stick with it. Messing around with different staples and shapes and sizes will just hinder you because it will mean your reedmaking process is less consistent.
This year I am Professor Schuring's Graduate Teaching Assistant, and having studied with him, played next to him, and made reeds for him from time to time over the past four years, I feel that I have a good grasp on his concept of reed-building, tone production, and how it relates to his approach to the oboe. If you have questions about his diagram, you can email me privately and I'll do my best to help you "fill in the blanks".
In the mean time, while everyone has made many, many suggestions such as "dust this" or "scrape that", I'll go on record, that all of these comments have a time and place for these techniques, depending on the structure and scraping style of the reed. The single most important thing that you could pick up from visually looking at pictures is proportions. It's important to find the approximate proportions and lengths of the different reeds, as they more often affect the level of pitch and resistance of the reed than thickness. If you have a reed or two that you really feel comfortable on already, try to match as many variables as you can (staple, shape, gouge) and then measure out measurements (tip starts at ...., heart starts at.... tip starts at...). Be specific, and be very precise with your critical eye, ("Okay, the side of the heart starts at ... but the middle of the heart starts at... the lower bottom corner of the tip starts at ... but the middle of the tip ends at ... and the middle of the tip is shaped like a triangle or dome or etc.) Feel free to mark on the blank with a pencil to mark these measurements.
Good luck, and welcome to the always-unpredictable world of reedmaking.
Edit:
Short story: Once upon a time I had time and I blogged a lot. Then I became a grad student. The end.
Relevant blog entries that might be of use.
July 27, 2007
December 27, 2007
November 5th, 2009
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
Post Edited (2012-09-23 07:36)
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Author: DrewSorensenMusic
Date: 2012-09-23 13:36
It was mentioned in my last lesson that if I had some money to burn, a Micrometer would aid my struggle. In truth, I think Mr Schneider uses one on every reed he makes, to measure the heart at least, maybe other parts as well. We've only had one reed making lesson so far, so we're still getting into it. I'll see what I can do about getting one. Right now, I'm opening Hairspray at a local theater, which runs until November 4th. Maybe some of that cash will make itself into one.
A few things that may be the issue that I will try and remedy in my next reeds:
1. The initial scrapes. I think I've been scraping too flat, so I'm thinking to start more at an angle, so that the spine is prominent.
2. The blend. I am having so much trouble with this. How steep of an angle. How deep of a triangulation. One thing that I can't really tell in the part of the blend closest to the rails. In pictures it makes it seem like the scrape does not have a gradual increase into the heart. I'm wondering if this is correct, or if the heart is blended into the blend, closest to the rails.
3. I will worry about the back when I get these two things working. At least I'm scraping the back slightly to start, but after that I'm convinced my mistakes are the main two above.
I just read the blogs, July 27, 2007 is particularly helpful, or at least a new concept for me. I have a contour plaque coming with the cane this Monday. I'm wondering if that change won't be the thing that's needed. I feel like I have a whole heap of shapes and supposed knowledge in my head about what happens when you take cane from x, y, or z, but it's not coming out in my reed making. Truly a frustrating art indeed.
Drew S.
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2012-09-23 22:33
I second Cooper in his comments about measurement and proportion. I arrived at my set of ideal measurements after measuring my best reeds for several years. They were all very similar in proportions, in the heart thickness, in the tip measurements.
Now I hog off wood to those approximate measurements and then worry about finishing and balancing the reed.
As I mentioned earlier, since the blend is a mechanical coupling between the tip and the back, you need to have both of them in place before you can discover what steepness of angle, triangular (or domed) shape, etc, will couple them the way you want. Rough out your reed close to your finished dimensions and then start more refined operations.
I tell my students that the edge of the tip, all the way to where it meets the edge of the blend at the rail, should be as thin as the corner of the tip. So actually, the fan-like blend really extends beyond the drawn dimensions in the charts all the way to the corners in a sweeping arc. The differences in the area beyond the pictured limits are too small to depict graphically, but the blend really is a continuously thinning surface from the heart to the corners with most of the thinning happening in the area that looks, in the drawings, like a triangle or dome. There should be no distinct demarcation between the 'tip' and the 'blend' but rather a distinct change in the slope of the blend.
This continuously thinning slope lets the tip vibrate at whatever frequencies the oboe is asking for, and those vibrations, transmitted along the blend to the back, drive the back in sympathetic resonance at lower frequencies.
Any interruption of the smooth slope of the blend such as lumps, chops, stair-steps, etc act in favor of some frequencies and against others, resulting in less than balanced overtones in the sound.
The corner of the blend shouldn't be cliff-like, because the edge of the back has been thinning, as shown by the bark along the rail which disappears just as it meets the blend.
Frustrating, yes, but patience and repetition will get you there. Your knifework already looks good, and that's the hardest part for most of my students.
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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