 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: kroboe
Date: 2005-09-07 08:47
I am puzzeled to see how many of you guys in this forum who seem to rely solely on ready-made reeds. Over the years I have also tried this solution on some occations, only to be invariably dissapointed. These reeds will always need adjustment to suit me, and in that process they have most often ended up in the dustbin. From day one my teacher started teaching me how to make reeds. I quickly mastered the basics, but it took me some years to get my successrate to pass 50%. Today, however, I know how to make one reed for Brahms, and another one for Mozart. I know which minute adjustments are needed to get the reed just right for the job, and I know when to discard a reed that will be a waste of time. This knowledge comes from working with reeds and cannot be achieved any other way. Sooner or later all oboists will arrive at the same basic conclution, that all things considered , in the end it all depends on the reed. A nice reed will release the musician in you, enabling you to play beautifully, whereas a less friendly reed does the opposite and may even ruin everything for you. Therefore, I think the ability to make and adjust ones own reeds is a neccessity to any serious oboist, whether amateur or proffessional. If you want to play the oboe you have to accept reedmaking as part of the game. The confidence that comes with this is vital, and this confidence cannot be bought. Or what do you think?
kroboe
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-09-07 12:57
In the best of all possible worlds, I agree with you. And I do wish I could make my own (I can adjust reeds pretty reliably, just don't make them).
But . . .
Having got quite a late start in the oboe playing biz (in my case, at nearly 60), I considered how my time with the instrument might best be spent. *Everyone* says it "takes years" to perfect one's reedmaking; and there's the rub: I don't HAVE the years to give. It seemed more fruitful for me to find a good reedmaker (which I have done) and use my time to develop a degree of accomplishment on the instrument (which I am doing).
There is a school of thought, certainly, which encourages younger players to simply concentrate on learning the instrument rather than learning reedmaking. This presumes that later on, they will take up reedmaking. Perhaps many of our board posters fall into this category of oboist.
And finally, I understand that even some very fine oboists have had someone else make their reeds. It seems to me that I read that even Gillet did this -- can't find that reference now. But Leon Goosens and Heinz Holliger, to name two, generally did not make their own reeds, according to Burgess and Haynes.
So, as they say, different strokes (pun intended) for different folks.
Susan
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Author: Demon
Date: 2005-09-07 16:35
I would like to start learning reedmaking as well but my teacher just did not even mention any of it. I am playing okay, passed through some auditions and got accepted into a conservatory (could not have the offer eventually due to non-music factor). So I would like to know how long it takes for an oboe player to start learning making reeds too.
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2005-09-07 17:12
In an ideal world, making reeds should be part of the package when learning to play oboe. Mostly, because the reed has to suit one's facial structure.
There is one thing that an aspiring oboe player has to face: if they want to improve, they have to make their own reeds. No other way! Some of the older pro players are known to not make their own reeds, but any student studying seriously in North America today does not have that option. Most university teachers will stop making reeds for their students after 1st term, or first year.
The main reason behind needing to make our own reeds is simple - our embouchure controls the entire reed. (As opposed to a clarinet/saxophone where there is a mouthpiece on one side of the reed.) And, as our embouchure develops, the reeds will need to change. The acceptable response, resistance, and vibrancy of a reed all generally change as a player is strong enough to support a good tone. So, by making one's own reeds, the changes in the reeds will happen passively over time...almost unnoticed.
Now to the logistics...sometimes sacrifices need to be made. If the student lives far away from a big city where an oboe teacher lives..are they willing to sacrifice time and money so that they can take those lessons (both playing, and reed lessons)? If not, then maybe they don't really love the oboe enough to pursue it anyways. I personally don't believe that it is unreasonable for a student to travel to a big city once a month (once a month is surely acceptable for a high school student!) to study with a teacher.
Having said that, if the oboe is NOT something that a student wants to pursue, and they have decided upon that, then there is no need to get into reeds. By all means find some good store reeds, maybe even some "pro" reeds as they call them. Some teachers have different "policies" according to the handing out of reeds - my personal policy is called "learn to swim." Once a student makes a playable reed, then they are cut off from my reeds. Most of my students see this as a challenge anyways, and indeed *want* to be cut off from my reeds, so that they truly feel they are making their own.
For students who want to improve, but don't want to study oboe seriously, they have to be aware of the limitations that it brings. A saxophone player, who plays "for fun" might very well sound good, mainly in part to the fact that they don't have to make, and aren't really limited by, reeds. A "for fun" oboe player has to face the facts that playing improvement will be difficult because of limiting reeds. If that is ok for them, then all is well!
D
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2005-09-08 01:31
I too don't have "years" to spend on learning to make reeds. I started late, I'm 50, and I'm working 4 or 5 days a week; I just plain don't have TIME to make my own reeds. And my expectations are low: I'm doing this for my own pleasure. And it pleases me to pay someone else to make reeds for me.
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2005-09-08 09:22
Just don't have the resources and supplies to make them. =(
Too bad.....
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2005-09-09 08:12
... definitely an asset to know how to fix ready-made reeds, and make new ones from salvaged tubes off deceased reeds
... definitely an asset to know to play a bad reed and still make it sound not bad
... definitely timely to build oboe-playing skill, technique and wide repertoire first with lots of practice, rather than use up same time for reed-making
... definitely better to have three trusted, blown-in store-bought or hand-made reeds in their prime all ready for any performance than cut a single new wild one (or beg, crawl or sell soul) just before performance
... definitely better for self-esteem to be able to do it all with polished professional perfection for the love of music rather than be disappointed and dissatisfied with moronic reviews
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2005-09-09 12:14
And on reeds...
Most professionals I know play so well that reeds don't even matter. Yes, even professionals have bad reeds, but amazingly enough they are able to play well on them. So, I don't think it is necessarily so that a "less than friendly reed" stops a player from being musical. Sometimes, the best performances are on so-so reeds, because the player is more aware of everything going on.
And personally, I'd take one of my own slightly wild reeds over a peepy shy store reed any day - there is more possibility of dynamics, despite the pain!
D
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-09-09 13:26
But we make a false dichotomy when we insist that the only alternatives are machine-made, "store bought" reeds on the one hand, and self-made, on the other.
Perhaps in the pre-Internet days, it was nigh unto impossible to locate a good -- and I mean, really good -- reedmaker for oneself. But today, there is no end to the truly excellent reeds available from makers across the U.S. I don't know if the same is true in Europe and Asia, but it is patently true for the U.S.
As I have previously mentioned, after trying several good makers, I have found one maker whose reeds consistently work for me. I order about every two months, and as many as six at a time, depending on my playing schedule. There is naturally some variation among these reeds -- some are miraculous as found, some need a tweak or two, and there have been one or two duds (out of the many that I have received). This is not unlike what one would expect in making their own reeds, I think. Or better.
The good news is that my reedmaker will accept the return of any reed which does not please (actually, he just makes a couple more and sends them to me).
Contrary to being a limiting factor in my playing, these reeds have enabled a quantum leap my flexibility and tone, and have allowed me to become known in my community as a fine oboist. I can only shudder to think where I would be if I were trying, as a relative newbie, to make my own!
Susan
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2005-09-10 02:46
<<And personally, I'd take one of my own slightly wild reeds over a peepy shy store reed any day - there is more possibility of dynamics, despite the pain!>>
oh yes, isn't there that short glorious time when blowing in new reeds (store or hand-made) when the wild voice is still there, and it's just right, and i love it :-) but alas it's too good to last very long
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Author: kroboe
Date: 2005-09-13 13:18
I understand that views differ on this issue, and that people have different opinions based on their own experiences. But, to be able to just order some reeds that will suit you perfectly whenever you need them, that seems almost unreal to me. I doubt that this is widespread. And I think perhaps that it is often also an illusion. Because, I think that with little or no experience in reedmaking, and only by playing on finished reeds, one never realises the full potential of the reed to change the entire instrument, and one never realises how many problems significant to playing the obo that can be manipulated by choosing between differences in reed qualities. Because reed quality affects so much more than just sound. My own experience is that there is no way around this. Reeds are made of wood, a never resting, live material that will keep vital qualities of your instrument as a whole ever changing.
To tackle this you have to have intimate knowledge of the factors involved and how to deal with them. To me the only way has been to make my own reeds, and by that learn the secrets from inside, so to speak.
There is only one opinion in this string that I strongly object to, and that is the statment that professional oboists can play equally well on any reed, and that due to their professionalism they have so to speak risen above the whole reed problem. This is simply not true. What is true is that professionals, due to the sheer amount of practise hours they put down, develope an embouchure and diaphragm strength and stamina to tackle a wider variety of reed qualities than what amateurs can expect to do. But that does not make them less choosey in picking the right reed for a performance. I have seen so many times how principal oboists can fuzz around with their reeds, testing their entire collection to pick just the right reed for this evenings performance. This goes to show that nothing affects your playing more than the qualities of your reed does, and that goes whether you are amateur or pro.
kroboe
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-09-13 13:35
<<I have seen so many times how principal oboists can fuzz around with their reeds, testing their entire collection to pick just the right reed for this evenings performance.>>
Just last week, my teacher was telling me about the first time she went to hear a performance with the bassoonist who was about to become her teacher in her Master's program.
He was the bassoonist for the Chicago Symphony. What she noted immediately was that before him, on his stand tray, he had an extensive array of reeds laid out. As the evening progressed, he frequently changed reeds, choosing the reed according to the demands of the passage at hand. He changed reeds not just between pieces, but during them, as well, presumably to give him the optimum sound for the qualities of the music he would be playing at any given moment.
I will think of this story when I run into a reed which is great low, but balky high, or wonderful for sustained tone, but impossible to tongue.
Just one of the tricks of the trade?
Susan
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2005-09-14 01:08
The only thing I change in my reeds is how much they are refined. When playing in large ensembles, I allow the crow to have a little rattle, just so that I don't have to overblow just to be heard. For chamber music, I make sure that the crow is very clean.
I wouldn't go so far as changing reeds in the middle of the piece, unless it was absolutely necessary. (like if the reed cracked) It's better to make two or three good reeds that you can do a great variety of things on, than to fuss around with 20 reeds than can only do this, and not that. Plus making three reeds is less time-consuming than making 20!
I know that professionals *can* play on almost any reed. Most professionals will be able to play on 75% of the reeds in their box, it's just that they choose the best reed so they don't have to work more than necessary. There have been times in my professional life, and in the lives of my teachers, or other double-reed colleagues, where reeds are not kind, and that the "best" reed in the box is nothing short of abysmal. Despite this, I haven't heard my colleagues perform anything terrible. Yes, there are the occasional blips, but the musician still seems to come through all the mess of reeds and oboe. It's strange!
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Author: absinthe
Date: 2005-09-18 10:05
I think you said it yourself - time.
I've found a reed-maker who is sensitive to my standard, knows my instrument and who produces consistent reeds within reason so I'm happy to stick with that.
I've experimented scraping reed blanks - I can come up with a usable reed most times but they're inconsistent so I'm happier, until much time comes available, to have my reeds made.
:)
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Author: dancingoboe
Date: 2005-09-21 20:52
I have always been making my reeds. I'm an eleventh grader and my teacher had me start making reeds in 7th grade. I think "hand-made" reeds are the best because then you can make them to your likeing. You don't have to worry about getting the reeds to hard or too soft!
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Author: kroboe
Date: 2005-09-26 14:02
Many interresting points have been made on this string. Understandably it seems that lack of time is the main reason why people don't go into reedmaking. Perhaps there are also variations in "culture" depending on where on the globe you live. In my part of the world you would probably keep it to yourself if you did not master reedmaking but still wanted to give the impression of beeing a serious oboist. Most people I know have a small carpentry at home for this purpose. I won't keep on stressing the arguments for getting into reedmaking. To me it's just so obvious. But there are ways of getting around the time problem, or at least reducing time consumtion drastically, and at the same time inreasing your successrate and reducing your expences equally significantly. After 15 years of timeconsuming reedmaking by hand i found that something had to be done. I spent too much time in my reed-carpentry. My former teacher's words kept ringing in my ears: Playing the oboe is 50% reedmaking and 50% playing the instrument. In the long run I found this intolerable. So, 10 years ago I bought myself a profiler, which is a chisel for the outside scrape of the reed. As it tourned out, this ment nothing less than a revolution to me. Suddenly I could make reeds in a fraction of the time it used to take. Reeds that would crow easily came straight out of the machine, and they only needed the usual minor adjustments to be finished. A small wonder! But you still have to master the tecnique of binding the guaged and shaped cane onto the staple, and you have to master the tecnique of adjusting the finished reed to your needs. But the main part of the scraping job during which most reeds's potential are ruined, is reduced to a piece of cake. Just consider the benefit of having two identically scraped blades on the reed to adjust, and indeed of getting reed after reed that in the outset will have identicall scrapes.
The profiler is an expensive piece of machinery, but I have not regretted buying one for a second! For, have no illusions, the reed problem will follow you as a shadow for the rest of your life, or for as long as you will play the oboe. So, if you want to make the trying life of being an oboist slightly easier on yourself my recommendation is to get yourself a profliler.
kroboe
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2005-09-26 14:46
Well, this is a different story. Making your own reeds from profiled cane is much easier. You should have started the thread with that information. I use Jones profiled cane and it works pretty well. I understand that Reeds and Stuff have a profiler for sale as well. I would recommend profiled reeds to any oboist. Many bassoonists use profiled cane.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: kroboe
Date: 2005-09-26 18:07
Well yes, you are probably right, I realise that this is another topic, but the piont I initially wanted to make and still maintaines is that mastering the art of reedmaking is fundamental to an oboist as I see it. Using a profiler is a great time-saver for the accomplished, but still something I would hesitate to recomend to a beginner before he/she has been handscraping their reeds for quite some time so that they know what it is all about.
kroboe
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2005-09-26 20:24
We disagree on this. Why make it more difficult for a begiinner? It takes a fair bit of scraping before the reed would be at the same state as a profiled reed. Understandably the finishing of a reed is finer work but most first attempts at reedmaking aren't very close to good reed specs. ie...heart way too heavy or light and unbalanced etc. Why have a beginning reed maker do more of the reed making process than you actually do? Perhaps I misinterpreted your reply.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: kroboe
Date: 2005-09-26 21:26
Well, I may be wrong, or perhaps just oldfashioned, but I think one should learn a skill like reedmaking thoroughly from the ground before starting to make short cuts. To me using a profiler is in a way making a short cut . I'm not shure I would know what to do with a profiled reed if I did not know how to make them in the first place. But as I say, this is just my opinion, and you are free to think otherwise.
kroboe
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Author: oboist
Date: 2005-09-26 21:56
just my 20 cents
I am strongly belive that any serious double reed player has to make his reeds.Period.I also belive that before you go to make your own reed your sence of tone must be pretty much developed.
The other think is that you going to sound same way on any kind of good reed just because your inner hearing will direct you to particular way of sounding-something that you yourself call "perfect tone".
Playing oboe is not chip hobby,so there is a lots of money must be invested in reedmaking,but results worth it!
I also think that anybody who is learning how to make his reeds must spend 2 hours each day at his reedmaking desk-otherwise choose yourself something different than playing double reed insrtument.
I myself play modern and baroque oboe,english horn and shalm,supplying my own reeds for all those butiful instruments.I am not using profiler-here i a bit oldfasioned,but i manage to make a handful reed in 15-20 minutes.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2005-09-27 04:39
Ah! Shall we agree to ban all reedmakers-for-hire, then? Mandate stiff fines for selling or conspiring to sell ready-made reeds, and jail time for repeat offenders? Classify pre-gouged and profiled cane as a controlled substance?
I just don't see the need to be so terribly doctrinaire about this issue.
If I were a young person who wanted a career as an oboist, I would certainly want to learn reedmaking.
But youthful career-seekers are not the only oboists in the universe. I would even venture to say that youthful career seekers are a distinct minority of oboists, in any milieu.
And because, in the United States alone, our schools and conservatories annually turn out more phenomenally gifted musical performers than will ever find positions in any orchestra, many of these give up the "serious" pursuit of their instrument until much later in life
So, what are we to do -- the underachievers and "rebeginners" who comprise the majority of oboists in the world?
Should we have another rule to disallow adult oboists who, because of family and work responsibilities, are hard-pressed to find time to even practice the instrument two hours a day? Must we who are not "serious" oboists (kroboe's words, not mine) always feel badly about our love for music, and for the instrument? Must we refrain from doing as well as we can, because we cannot do as well as we might?
I can assure you, I will never be a threat in the Gillet competition, and the Cleveland Orchestra will not be looking me up if their most recent candidate for the principal's position goes the way of the last three.
But I can also tell you that there are two community orchestras who are absolutely thrilled to have me as their oboist -- a thrill surpassed only by my pleasure at being able to do it for them. With my store-bought reeds.
Susan
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Author: kroboe
Date: 2005-09-27 08:54
hi susan,
Controversial issue, this one. There are pros and cons, and we all have to find our own way. I just wanted to point out the advantages as I see them, of making your own reeds. But I never ment to say that people playing on store- bought reeds were not "serious" oboists. Sorry about that. Considering the difficulties of playing the oboe I guess we must all be pretty serious about what we are doing.
kroboe
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2005-09-27 11:35
Making a reed in 15 milnutes? This sounds good but is it true? You are saying that you soak a reed, shape it, tie it on and scrape it in that time? Sounds very fast to me. I am assuming you don't leave the reed overnight before scraping it and you don't gouge your own cane. John
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: oboist
Date: 2005-09-27 12:43
I haven't say I make it in 15 minutes from gouging it!
I gouge in one sitting 100 or so pieces of cane.I let it dry.Than I shape, tie,and scrape reed till it play ok in 15-20 minutes.It is true:))))
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Author: felixity
Date: 2007-12-20 20:00
how early is too early to start learning the art of reed making? any opinions?
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Author: Bobo
Date: 2007-12-20 22:09
I started playing when I was 10 and started learning how to make reeds when I was about 12. Personally, I think that for people who begin young it is near criminal not to teach them reedmaking as soon as they can play reasonably well. It's such a big part of playing the instrument, if you can't do it or don't like doing it, play the clarinet or the flute! For those who start much later and do it for fun, I think store boughts are fine. When I see a high school kid who gets into county bands/orchestras but whose teacher hasn't taken the time to teach them to make reeds, I think it's just wrong.
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Author: Phil Freihofner
Date: 2007-12-31 10:23
ohsuzan wrote:
...
> And finally, I understand that even some very fine oboists have
> had someone else make their reeds. It seems to me that I read
> that even Gillet did this -- can't find that reference now. But
> Leon Goosens and Heinz Holliger, to name two, generally did not
> make their own reeds, according to Burgess and Haynes.
>
> So, as they say, different strokes (pun intended) for different
> folks.
>
> Susan
I also recently heard from a pro bassoonist (who plays in Los Angeles for the film industry) that Goosens had a reedmaker. But he also said that when his reed-maker retired, Goosens was forced to do so also! I don't know if this is true or not. Does anyone else know?
I don't know what I'm going to do when my source for gouged cane retires. I've tried various brands with miserable results. I'll probably have to buy a gouger and try to pay or otherwise coax the current source to let me know what settings he uses. I pray he retires in good health, but he seems like the type to work until he drops, at which point it will be too late to learn his method. Maybe the settings can be reverse-engineered.
There are people who can make reeds in 15-20 minutes (from gouged cane). I've met several. But I don't particularly like to play on their reeds!
One "pro" who did make very good reeds (took him more like an hour) made me a few. I was paying him $35 an hour but he insisted on delivering one reed per $35. I did it because I was in the middle of a contract and working fulltime and more at that same rate (computer programming) and didn't have the time to both work on reeds and practice. He quit after about three reeds saying that it made him crazy to make me a really good reed and then have to give it up.
http://adonax.com
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Author: OboeAgain
Date: 2007-12-31 18:27
John, do you make "American" scraped reeds or "European" scraped reeds?
Also, does has anyone had experience with the Reeds 'N Stuff profiler for oboe reeds using the "American" scrape?
Walter
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