 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: JRC
Date: 2011-06-05 03:31
I cannot help realizing that an oboe is a piece of wood that is shaped in certain way with different size tone holes drilled through at specific locations. Yet, I notice that oboe's playing characteristics change when I play on it for some time. The center intonation (and pitch) settles down to the acoustic limits of specific oboe, it responds to subtle musical demands (variety of different attacks and sound endings), tone color settle down to produce consistent range, and etc. Some new oboes take a few months to settle down to its acoustic limits. Some old rebuilt oboes take 6 months or longer. It is not just settling down to one particular person. Different people can tell an oboe that has been played on a lot by a "good " player. Definitely easier to play and better in tune. One can tell if the oboe is playing its acoustic limits.
It reminds me of violins, a sound box made of wood. Some Strads left in attic for a long time would not play well. They sound "raw" and uncontrolled. If it was left unplayed for very long time, violin makers tell me that it will not come back to playing condition. It will "die".
Would something equivalent happen to oboe? Any one have experience in this aspect of oboe?
I rebuilt a 60 year old Rgoutat that was in a bad shape (not played on for a long time). I got it completely overhauled. Ar first, it played sharp, some almost quarter tone. Its response was rough and untamed. But it had that Rigoutat sound. I kept playing on it for a year or so. The pitch and intonation settle down to 440. Its response is smooth. But it took a year to get to this point. It is still improving.
I would love to collect people's experience on this matter.
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Author: joepie
Date: 2011-06-05 09:52
Hi JRC,
Fascinating subject that you just opened. I have no idea as to why this settling happens, but I too am now very anxious to know .
I own a 30+ year old Marigaux 910, of which my teacher tells me never to get rid of. It has a very warm sound. I only got it last year, and appear to be fortunate to have stumbled upon such a nice instrument.
Post Edited (2011-06-05 10:10)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-06-05 13:37
I think it's more a case of the player gettng accustomed to the instrument than the instrument settling down. All instruments are different and you'll find one that suits someone else may not suit you. There are some things that do settle down with instruments once they are being played regularly but I think it's more to do with the player adapting.
I also found an older Rigoutat I rebuilt to have a fantastic tone, but for me I found the tuning pretty wild (the upper register and altissimo played very sharp) as I wasn't used to it. If I played it over a longer period and became more familliar with it then I'd learn how to tame it.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: JRC
Date: 2011-06-05 16:38
Yes, there is that a person getting accustomed to the response of the wood. But I am referring to the wood getting accustomed to be played upon. In the case of oboe, the effects appear to be less drastic than that of violin. However, in either case, the wood's acoustic response limits are the best the wood can offer.
Yes, Rigoutat, at least most I have tried mostly older ones, tend to be on the sharp side in upper register, but within the range where any better oboe player can adapt to. But I am referring to the wood's change in responses after being played upon.
Yes, the wood does change in its response characteristics beyond a person getting use to it. How can one explain the fact that people recognizing well seasoned and well played upon instruments from brand new or just reconditioned instruments? Seasoned oboe does play easier and better to any better oboe player, not just to the one whose been playing on.
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-06-05 19:51
I'm inclined to agree with Chris. HOWEVER, I also intentionally buy used instruments because I dread that 'settling in' phase.
And I KNOW wood changes with time (and use, or a combination of the two, not to mention weather/humidity...), because my Jarde (70+ yrs old?) is literally curved, and still it plays really nicely.
GoodWinds
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-06-05 20:09
I can't remember who mentioned something about their plastic Loree - either an oboe or d'amore and a wooden one of the same model and vintage which played pretty much identically when new, but the wooden one had developed over time timbre-wise whereas the PVC one didn't yield.
Talking clarinets here, years ago I serviced a Normandy clarinet which didn't appear to be anything special, but when I play-tested it the tone was remarkable and was on par with a Leblanc Concerto or Opus if not better. It was bought used and was from a company in the UK that import pawn shop instruments from the US and the owner at the time (an elderly beginner) had played it non-stop since she bought it when she upgraded from her plastic clarinet. Either this clarinet had something special in it (maybe it was originally intended to be a pro Leblanc but there were some flaws) or being played for several hours a day since it was bought had an influence on it.
This is a topic of debate and probably more intense a topic than comparing the timbre of both wood and plastic instruments - some may agree and others may not as to which is better and why, science may prove or dismiss claims why they play the same or differently, but these things do happen and it's hard to pinpoint exactly what is going on and there's no definitive answer as to which is best.
There's only one way to find out ...
FIGHT!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2011-06-05 21:07
> How can one explain the
> fact that people recognizing well seasoned and well played upon
> instruments from brand new or just reconditioned instruments?
As the resident skeptical scientist here, I have to ask--how well established is this fact? Do we have a well-controlled study of statistically significant number of observations, or do we have a few anecdotes? I can't hope for such a study being done, as it would probably require something like a dozen recently well-played instruments and a dozen rather unplayed instruments of the same make being evaluated "blind" by a talented musician. And you can't just go out and find instruments that have been played or not played, because their lack of being played may in fact be the result of them being inferior instruments to begin with.
When I bought my Marigaux years ago, I had on trial two used Marigauxs from Nora Post of almost exactly the same vintage. On one, the inscribed lettering was still bright with gold, but on the other, all that was left was uncolored indentations in the wood. I assumed the latter had been played more than the former, and it was by far the better oboe (and the one which I purchased). But it never crossed my mind that it was better because it had been played more--I assumed that the other had perhaps just been someone's spare instrument that didn't get much play because it wasn't such a great instrument!
So, really, if we want to establish this "fact" of oboe seasoning, we should get sets of pairwise matched instruments that are of essentially comparable quality as judged by oboe expert A, and then put one of each pair in storage for a year while the other gets played regularly. At the end of the year, have oboe expert A reevaluate them and see if there's a discernable difference.
Of course, before we do this experiment, we need to decide what constitutes "fair" storage conditions--what relative humidity, what temperature? Because we could certainly conceive of brutal storage conditions that would ruin any instrument.
When I have the results of this study before me I'll start thinking about answers to the question of how one can explain this "fact."
Mike
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-06-05 23:04
Fight?!? I vote for Research.
How do you plan to measure such a thing, Mike?
Where would you collect 'quality' instruments?
I'm curious to see what your experiment would look like (as I too was trained to be skeptical and scientific about things, once, long ago...).
How would you decide which variables to eliminate?
This could be FUN.
GoodWinds
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-06-05 23:46
Mike - I like your idea of storing one instrument and playing the other. But for the test to be truly valid we need to set it up as a double blind study: the owner marks them in a way unknown to the judge and they are delivered to the judge by someone also unaware of the identity of the instruments...
Seriously, although I'm sure there is a large component of learning the subtleties of the instrument over time, there is also the 'breaking in' period in the mix. I don't thing anyone disagrees that an oboe starts off new as stuffier than it will be after a few months of playing. I'm not so sure it reverts over time if not played, but I've got no basis to make that judgment.
A string repairman friend told me there's a eccentric-weight vibrating gadget you can attach to your new string instrument which will substitute for playing and hasten the break-in period for that instrument.
There's no question in my mind that Something happens as an instrument is used, but just what I couldn't begin to speculate beyond the observation that the instrument will play more freely.
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: JRC
Date: 2011-06-05 23:49
So, so far no one actually confirms the "blown-in" effects except me, perhaps.
I thought my overhauled old Rigoutat was "blown-out", specifically blown sharp about a quarter tone, according to a well known repair tech. After a year of playing on it. It came back. Not just to me. To any oboe player playing on it. I remember my students used to tell me that my oboe plays easier than theirs even though they have more expensive brands. Most of my students' oboes were actually better: better intonation and playability in every sense. They use to say that oboes may be like horses, they need to be "blown-in" like wild horses need to be tamed.
Anyone has similar experience?
Post Edited (2011-06-05 23:55)
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-06-06 05:42
So happy to know there's still room for some MYSTERY in the music world!!
GoodWinds
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-06-06 05:54
JRC- I agree completely that an instrument gets 'blown-in". I'm just not convinced that they get 'blown-out'. I play Lorée CR-75 which I bought in the middle '60s and it still plays as well as ever. Marc Lifschey played it a few years back while he was still alive and commented, "Yup, it still has it."
Now it may have changed over time and I may have changed to accommodate it, but that doesn't explain another sophisticated player feeling like it was still a good instrument.
Yes, Goodwinds, there is still mystery and black magic in the music world...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: Oboelips
Date: 2011-06-10 18:11
My teacher always taught that you could 'blow notes in' to your instrument. Whether or not it's the instrument or you making the adjustment is unknown, but if you work at it, it will happen.
I do not subscribe to oboes being 'blown out'. I think it's possible that they 'die' if not played. Last year my Rigoutat was in the shop, and we rehearsed for a ballet. For this rehearsal, I played my 'spare' oboe, a 90-year old Loree. After the rehearsal, the ballet master singled me out to compliment my beautiful oboe sound. That old oboe still 'has it'.
I do notice that each time an instrument comes back from the shop, I have to 'play it in', to feel 100% with it. It takes about a week of nightly practice. Is it me? Is it the instrument? I don't know.
I'm in the midwest, and always buy used (with the Rigoutat, it was several years old, and had belonged to a pro, who I am sure, knew more about oboe selection that I do!) but with our erratic opposites of seasons (snowy, often sub-zero winters, hot humid summers to rival the south) I don't want to have to break in an oboe.
But, as we all know, "Some oboes are not good oboes."
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Author: JRC
Date: 2011-06-19 10:08
Just came back from meeting new musical friends in Italy. Met some string players and pianists. One of them was in business, selling restoring and ... violins and the concertmaster of a major Italian symphony orchestra. He told me a very interesting story that is very much related to the subject.
Violins change the playing characteristics based on who's been playing the instrument. He knows a famous violin repairman and restorer in Italy who is also very much sought after in NY as well. He often gets requests to tune up a violin that is perfectly repaired and adjusted, and usually very expensive one, because it just does not respond "just right". It sounds much like voicing of an oboe; touching up here and there to improve the instrument's responses to delicate musical expressions like intonation, playability, dynamics,....
Often, that famous repairman does nothing to the instrument but just lend it to a good player to try it out for couple of weeks. Then give it back to the owner. He told me that this works magic every time. The violin improves! The customers get satisfaction and make the repairman more precious and sought after!
The story is that a violin does change its musical responsiveness based on who has been playing upon it. Good players do improve the instrument's responsiveness and bad players do suppress the instrument's musical responsiveness. Some violinists would not let any one touch his/her violin, especially a bad player, for that reason. I do have similar experience with oboe in the past, not to a degree that violinists are talking about. But indeed have the similar affects.
I hope to put together a list of measurable physical parameters that may have affects to this phenomena, such as looking at the sound in frequency domain before and after in some sort of controlled manner. It appears that I will need to parameterize "musical responsiveness" into measureables. Another words, what do we mean when we say this instrument is better than the other when we play on it, and answer it with something we can measure, like pitch, intonation, loudness, tone color, etc. If any of you folks have any idea, please post. I would like to learn.
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