 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: Theyoungoboist
Date: 2011-04-19 04:04
So today I had an unfortunate oboe playing incident. I played a passage too long without breathing, became extremely light headed and actually fainted. I woke up on top of my oboe with a cracked reed. :(
I have had a history of fainting in my lifetime (along with migraines) so I might be more prone to this sort of thing. As far as I can tell my oboe is ok, and I'm fine besides a small bump on my forehead. The nurse did all the tests and they were fine. I would just like to prevent as many physical issues in my playing career as possible.
I've heard that the oboe can cause problems because of the high pressure? I'm not exactly sure about the details and was wondering if anyone else knew. Also, are there any other heath issues that can arise from playing the oboe or any other instrument for that manner?
Thanks,
TYO
http://oboeadventures.tumblr.com/
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Author: claire70
Date: 2011-04-19 07:07
I wouldn't say it's the high pressure, it's the fact you're not breathing properly. The way it works is that normally when you breathe out, you breathe out carbon dioxide. When you play the oboe, because of the tiny reed you only get rid of a tiny bit of that carbon dioxide, so you have to physically make yourself breathe OUT again before you take the next in-breath. If you don't, you'll faint because of too much CO2 in your body.
If you really work on breathing out properly and controlling your breath, then you should be fine. But if you ever feel even slightly dizzy then stop playing straight away until it passes.
There are all kinds of myths about oboists who go crazy because of the pressure in their head. I think they're nonsense! If anything I think oboists probably are pretty healthy because of the way playing increases your heart rate. (Evelyn Rothwell died a few years ago at the age of 90-something, so it didn't do her any harm.)
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-04-19 13:53
Assuming you are playing free-blowing reeds, learn to exhale more.
We have to rid the blood of carbon dioxide which builds up rather quickly.
The fix is to breath out before taking in more air, because its the exhale that rids the CO2.
While you are at it, learn to exhale deeply, quickly and very quietly.
In the event you get red-faced from reeds too stiff, you must find different reeds that don't pose that problem.
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Author: oboesax
Date: 2011-04-19 13:59
My daughter (who is 15) said that the principal oboe player in her youth orchestra fainted about 2 months ago during a youth orchestra rehearsal. The girl had been playing an A, tuning the wind sectional, for about 15 minutes straight, then just fell out of her chair with her oboe. She'd been playing the A without a break, and probably, as the previous poster discussed, wasn't breathing, or exhaling, properly.
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-04-19 15:13
15 minutes is WAY too long to be tuning. I hope the conductor got a clue.
GoodWinds
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-04-19 15:17
Oboe Craig is right on with the explanations.
There is a medical phenomenon that occurs with oboe players and others who hold their breath while exerting pressure, that can cause fainting. (I think it's called the Valsalva maneuver...) BUT with correct breathing and a responsive reed you can overcome any potential danger to yourself.
I ALWAYS encourage young oboists to get going on lessons right away, with a professional or highly-qualified teacher. Learning to breathe right is so KEY to good (and safe) playing.
I notice that with long passages, my heart rate drops, and I've a chronic nasty health thing going on. I am convinced that playing the oboe is BETTER for me than not playing, and yes, it can (if played correctly) contribute to longevity!!
mary RN
GoodWinds
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-04-19 15:26
First off, let me assure you that yes you CAN continue playing the oboe.
I used to get migraine headaches on average once a week untill I got married. (Ironic, because some people might say the opposite!) I also used to get dizzy spells while playing (only close to fainting, never fully). This was mostly in hot overly humidified rooms.
For me, many things were required to get over it:
1- reeds made on bigger staples
2- bigger shaper (e.g. RDG -2)
3- European scraping style (harsh crow)
4- practicing sitting, not standing
5- cooler temperature
**** for #3, recall that the main reason is that I have a loud voice due to lots of air and lots of pressure: I need a reed that can take it.
OboeCraig and others like him will give you the best advice concerning breathing techniques with American scrape reeds.
But in all cases, be assured that this is something you can do, provided you don't decide you'd rather do something else.
Also, the addage "a sound mind in a sound body" implies excercise!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2011-04-19 16:00
Robin gives a list of items that helped him get over his headaches. No doubt it worked for him, but I don't think it's necessary for everyone to use bigger shapes/staples and European scrapes to get over dizzying spells/migraines/fainting. I think the key here is more airflow through the reed, which can be accomplished through balance and different scraping.
I had a girl who used to get really dizzy, so before every lesson I'd take her through a routine of stretching and jumping jacks. That seemed to help get the blood flowing better and warm her up. No doubt Mary the RN could give you better advice, but perhaps a longer warm-up would help.
Also, practice during your long tones inhaling and exhaling. Inhale and play 6 beats, and then exhale (without inhaling again) and play for 4 more beats. Experiment with inhaling only a little and exhaling only a little. I think one of the hardest things to teach a student is that inhaling and exhaling doesn't need to be a "big-bad-wolf" affair, and more often than not, just a whisper in either direction can get you through the next period. I'm playing the 3 Romances right now, and it's critical for me to not only mark my inhales and exhales, but how big and how small my inhales should be.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2011-04-19 17:35
I once blacked out for a minute in a concert. Has never happened since. Natural but good "oboe" breathing is really important. Everyone's previous comments are dead on. Keep going and best wishes!
Howard
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2011-04-19 22:44
I actually started learning (well teaching myself) circular breathing at a young age for this reason. I wasn't passing out or anything, but I knew that breathing out was an important part of oboe breathing. The circular breath allows me to breathe out all of the bad air before breathing in good air (either normally or circular). This became very useful in Strauss and Schumann!
Learn to breathe out properly, and remember that you don't have to take big breathes in like flute players would. I often test my young oboists to breathe in and out, and then play without breathing back in to show them how long they can actually play with very little air. Learning to take only enough air in will allow you better time for breathing. Good luck!
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-04-19 23:47
I mentioned deep exhales earlier, but Ron puts the icing on the cake with the minimal breathing comment.
Nice.
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-04-20 00:44
exercise and breathing work-outs are ALWAYS a good idea.
Just stay within your own personal limits, no heroics!!
mary RN
GoodWinds
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-04-20 00:47
I tend to breathe in too deeply, and have to exhale big as well. But I am aware of this and I like to have a nice fat air column to work with, so it is a personal choice.
And for asthmatics, you can't beat the oboe for helping this condition.
Who was it that recommended exhaling through an empty staple, just to 'focus' the breath and see how long a phrase can be?... nice exercise.
Good for my beginner student. Thanks!
Kudos to all you healthy breathers out there.
mary
GoodWinds
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Author: plclemo
Date: 2011-04-20 02:39
It is called the Valsalva maneuver. I have a shunt in my head and when I hold my breath too long or try to lift heavy objects or strain in any way, I get a severe headache and I get very lightheaded. The neurosurgeon warned me that this might happen playing the oboe, but I have kept it from happening by proper breathing. The very first time I attempted to play an oboe, I got an excruciating headache and I nearly passed out. But that hasn't happened since. Apparently, I am a quick learner!
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Author: Theyoungoboist
Date: 2011-04-20 03:03
How do I breath out properly. Everything I've learned (articles, my teacher, ect.) has emphasized breathing in properly.
TYO
http://oboeadventures.tumblr.com/
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Author: claire70
Date: 2011-04-20 07:02
If your teacher is not teaching you to breathe out, they are not a good teacher. (Sorry to be blunt.) I presume they are a general woodwind teacher rather than an oboe specialist?
Basically you just want to practise breathing out as quickly and forcibly as possible before breathing in again. First you should do an out and then an in at the same time - doing an out, carrying on playing and then doing an in is more advanced so can come later. When I teach, I write an o for an out breath sign on students' music, next to a tick for an in breath, to remind them to do both. (I do it on my own music too, out of habit, but it's useful as well!)
Breathing out before you breathe in is counterintuitive, as your body is telling you to breathe in. But you MUST do it!
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Author: Jeltsin
Date: 2011-04-20 07:27
I like this subject and many of the intelligent comments. Most subjects here are about reeds and for me it is sufficent if I have some reeds that are good enough and I usually have some.
I have practise breathing as a singer, as a flute player and now as an oboe player, and I think it is all about controlling an air column by the diaphragm. I try not to think about exhaling or inhaling (especially) but instead to loose the diaphragm support which for me result in that I exhale the remaining air. As a flute player it is important to inhale a lot of air but not as an oboe player. I would like to think that the air in my lungs differ between empty - half full, not between half full - full (not true of course).
Everyone (especially girls) sometimes or always breath with their shoulders instead of using "diaphragm breathing". The "shoulder breathing" never let you get rid of much of the excessive air and may be dangerous when you play the oboe.
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Author: oboesax
Date: 2011-04-20 11:54
I would second this recommendation to learn to circle breathe. My 15-year old daughter learned it last summer at music camp (on saxophone). She spent a lot of time working with a straw. One year later she can use the technique fairly well and it helps greatly in pieces such as the Strauss oboe concerto, which the previous poster noted. I've noticed that her sound and volume has improved a lot during this time as well. However, her oboe teacher did not teach her this technique as he can't circle breathe, even though he played for 20 years in one of the top military bands. Either teach yourself, or find a musician who can show you--it doesn't have to be an oboe player.
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-04-20 13:16
I teach it as 'backwards breathing'; like Claire says, you have to train yourself to breathe OUT at the end of a phrase before breathing IN.
Some books (Gekeler) teach you to breathe out, then a few measures later, breathe in. I find this distracting.
It is a BIG change from your 'normal', but once you get the hang of it, your playing (and your body sensations!) will improve dramatically.
GoodWinds
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-04-20 13:20
diaphram breathing is a GIVEN because you can't really breathe effectively with your shoulders moving, anyway. My piano teacher taught diaphram breathing -- kudos to her. I appreciate voice teachers who emphasize it, too.
There are exercises where you place a book on your tummy while lying down, and make sure you move the book toward the ceiling... No Oxford Dictionaries of the English Language, though, you might get a hernia
GoodWinds
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2011-04-20 13:41
As a flute player first, as Jeltsin says, I often find myself taking in too much air. While this is great for long phrases, it also means WAY too much CO2 to have to get rid of!
I use a combination of 'backwards breathing', as Mary puts it, which I often find useful in band, and the Gekeler idea of spacing out the inhaling and exhaling. I find if I have specifically notated this (I use a 'V' for in and a 'O' for out) it isn't distracting. Flute playing has helped a little in this regard, as we use so much air, we are used to specifically practising the breathing spots, or else we simply can't complete the phrase nicely.
Certainly the exhaling has helped the lightheadedness I first experienced, as well as realising that a good tone is not so much about the hardness of your reed - a free-flowing reed has so many more benefits.
There is a choir warm-up we used at school that I am currently using with my flute students who do not take in enough air - I believe it strengthens the diaphragm. Inhale over a period of 4 counts, hold for 4 counts. Repeat twice WITHOUT exhaling first - you will be amazed at the amount of extra air you are able to squeeze in. After you have recovered from this process, try the whole thing in reverse (exhaling). It is amazing just how much 'waste' air we subconsciously hold in.
I find this one of the more challenging parts of playing oboe compared to other instruments - good luck!
Rachel
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Author: Theyoungoboist
Date: 2011-04-21 02:33
My teacher is specialized in oboe and English horn, so I consider him to be excellent. Breathing out has never been addressed as a problem, I have always had a harder time breathing in properly and supporting.
http://oboeadventures.tumblr.com/
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Author: Jeltsin
Date: 2011-04-21 07:13
During the time when I was taking singing lessons, one exercise was first to inhale air, then try to get the feeling as if you get surprised or scared by something and then start singing. What you actually do when you get the surprised feeling is that you set the diaphragm under press as it should be when you sing, play flute or play the oboe. What I try to do is to loose the diaphragm pressure which for me results in that I exhale lots of air.
Rachel was helped with her flute playing and I usually starts my oboe practise with playing the flute for 10-20 minutes.
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Author: Jeltsin
Date: 2011-04-21 08:27
I found your choir warm-up very interesting, Rachel. I have sent it to the conductor of the choir I still sings in and I will practise it today before I play the oboe.
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Author: WoodwindOz
Date: 2011-04-21 12:16
Another good exercise I learnt from choir days, which may or may not be relevant to this case, but is useful all the same, is to inhale for a set number of beats, say 8, then exhale on a syllable such as 'sss' for the same number of beats. This gets the diaphragm moving in equal amounts and speed in both directions.
I guess the issues for some of us are not necessarily being aware of the need to exhale (which we know), it is having the physical awareness and capability to be able to do it.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-04-21 12:54
In that case, I recommend the exercise breathing with a staple, I think Craig said it was good for people with asthma too, but you'd better check with a health pro.
I don't know if this will help with fainting or not, but it will help develop the muscles for inhaling and air control. It should also open the throat which, in my case and most of my colleagues way back when, tended to be constrained.
Take the staple from an old broken down reed. With that staple in your lips, breathe in as much AND as forcibly as you can: concentrate on expanding the lower rib cage (your belly, but also your lower back will bellow).
When you think you can take no more air in, inhale even more.
When your eyeballs are about to pop out, forcibly push out all the air (again through the staple). When you think you have exhaled all the air in your lungs KEEP GOING, you still have more: crouch and scootch as much as needed, but keep pushing out.
When you're starting to get dizzy, that's when you did it right. The first few times should make you cough and you'll only be able to do one cycle at a time: that's good!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-04-21 17:11
I would say, breathe IN with your mouth but not through the staple, then breathe out through the staple to 'focus' the breath. If after 15 seconds you still have breath left, then exhale the rest completely, not through the staple.
Just a fine tuning thing; what you want is AUTOMATIC good breathing, so whatever repetitive exercise you use to get there, DO it.
GoodWinds
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Author: Pattyoboe
Date: 2011-04-21 19:12
At a concert one night, when playing one of the English horn solos in American in Paris, everything started to go black. I didn't fully pass out, but I could no longer see my music. Got through the solo, relaxed, and everything was fine. I started having this happen more and more frequently ... and I was exhaling as well as inhaling as I normally do. I can still experience this sometimes. I've never crashed to the floor, but having everything go black is a wee bit scary!
It seems to be related to sort of "locking" my air at the top part of my lungs as I try to control things very carefully. I don't know how else to explain it, but that's how I'd describe what I sometimes do. It's a sort of tenseness ... while trying very hard to breathe properly and then control everything it sort of backfires! So it has to do, for me, with relaxation, with not "locking" air at the top of my lungs ... things like that. In addition, I sometimes have to release a bit of air even while I take a good breath, before playing the first note.
Not sure if this makes sense to you ... but it's not always about exhaling in the way some are describing.
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2011-04-21 19:46
I wished there was a "like" button beside Pattyoboe's post, getting addicted to those things! I had similar experiences but i found out later that my nerves played more of a role in that. These days i have a simple philosophy, easy but stable reeds + breathing that requires no explanation + looking good when playing (you'd be surprised!). It has come a long way!
Howard
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2011-04-21 20:06
How To Breathe Out:
Go to a table and put down all your reeds, staples and your oboe. Now go to a window or mirror.
Open your mouth as if you are about to say Ahhh ..
Keep ALL your wind passages as OPEN as possible - no backwards pressure from any part of your airway.
Breathe as much air onto the glass as you can in one quick shot - try and mist the glass as much as possible.
The push must come from really low down in your body - try and push the air out with your intestines. Really.
Breathing in is the opposite - one quick shot, down deep into your body. Imagine you are trying to distend your back passage with air - that's how deep you should go.
Practice this five times, every opportunity you get (every time you walk past a mirror).
[As described and demonstrated by Prof. Nick Deutsch (Frankfurt) at a recent wind-players assoc. weekend here in Israel]
When you are playing the oboe, it is all about maintaining pressure/wind-speed through a tiny aperture. When you are breathing out or in, it is all about expelling or inhaling a volume of air. Two different techniques. My advice is to get these basic techniques down pat, before you try for circular breathing.
J.
Post Edited (2011-04-21 20:07)
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-04-21 22:49
Yikes....
Sometimes it helps to do several 'cleansing breaths' before a stressful solo (learned it in Lamaze classes with my wife..:))
I have come to believe aside from CO2 buildup, adrenaline can contribute to problems including 'blacking out'. I am much calmer now but used to get a real 'high' out of solo pressures. Sometimes it worked for me, sometimes against.
I have grayed out a few times, long ago, spring-time allergies etc., but also from adrenaline, I think. It makes one hold a breath and not realize it.
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-04-21 22:57
I guess it's worth a try, Robin. If it helps you, go for it!
But in my understanding, the vacuum in the chest works to cause inhalation anyway. People with restrictive lung disease (emphysema, asthma, COPD) don't have trouble breathing IN, but breathing OUT.
GoodWinds
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-04-21 22:58
that's absolutely true: stress (adrenalin) makes one holds one's breath and not realise it.
I am SO HAPPY to hear that you enjoy the benefits of your LaMaze training, Craig. 'Cleansing Breaths' rock!
GoodWinds
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2011-04-21 23:01
I second that; breathing correctly has never prompted me to even try to learn circular breathing. Well, I did try, but not very hard, as I have very limited occasion to use it. Like, never.
Perhaps when I play more clarinet/bass clarinet I'll try to learn circular breathing again...
GoodWinds
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-04-22 00:37
There are many good comments in this thread. I think the most important is the need to expel stale air before you breath in. This prevents topping off a lungfull of stale air with a bit of fresh: you still have a lungfull of stale air...
Ron has a very good point: you don't need to use a lot of air to play. But there is a difference between breathing before starting or after ending a phrase and breathing in the middle of one.
I teach my students to take a deep breath when time permits and to exhale most of it before playing. Then in the middle of the phrase, when a quick breath is necessary you will have a minimum of stale air and lots of room for fresh air.
Most of all, use the longer periods of rest to breath normally and refresh your oxygen. The more highly controlled breathing you do while playing will not deplete your oxygen supply as long as you do breath deeply when you get the chance.
Taking several deep breaths and then playing loudly (or blowing hard) is an invitation to graying or blacking out. Just breath normally before you play, and remember to exhale before playing. A little experimentation will let you see how much to save; take a full breath, exhale half of it and see how long you can hold a note.
At risk of going overly long here, note that the urge to breathe is triggered by your lungs sensing the buildup of CO2. As long as you keep more fresh air than stale in your lungs you won't get that panicky GottaBreathe! feeling.
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-04-22 01:00
One more thought: breathing while playing is a lot like breathing when speaking. You don't even think about when to breath in a spoken conversation. And when you read aloud, the commas and periods are breathing clues you also don't think much about, because they define the natural pauses in the context of the words.
Musical phrases are very like the patterns of speech, and when we play the phrasing in a conversational manner, the breathing pattern won't be noticed by the listener - or by you, unless it requires a special effort to get through the passage.
Think of your music as being composed of questions and answers. The musical equivalent of a paragraph is called a period, and a period is (usually) made of an antecedent phrase (question) and a consequent phrase (answer), or sometimes two consequent phrases (answer/answer or contemplation/answer).
As you practice, ask yourself where these groupings occur and breath normally there, just as you would in a spoken conversation.
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-04-22 02:01
OH that was a good point!!!!
My principal teacher, Bernard Jean, was well known in the province of Québec both as a performer and teacher, but I don't know how he was known elsewhere, especially in non-French places.
At any rate, he made a deal about planning breaths.... not only where to breathe in but also where to breathe out. What I mean by that is that breathing OUT served 2 purposes:
2. it is a partakes fully in the character of the piece
1. it helps to plan the most efficient places to breath IN.
By breathing out, somehow the air is fresher at the next inhalation. This helps with endurance. In my case there is also a psychological effect because I'm really not comfortable with small breaths. I tend to panic when my lungs are not filled at capacity: a big problem when swimming... I HATE the water!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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