 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: claire70
Date: 2011-04-18 21:08
Another fairly-newbie-reed-maker question...
I am making semi-decent reeds at least some of the time now, that I'm willing to play on in public! I'm aiming for a German-style scrape; if anyone is familiar with Ke-Xun Ge reeds that's what I'm trying to emulate (with varying degrees of success).
My question is that my good reeds sound pretty good in the bottom octave of my lovely Marigaux oboe, and exactly what I'm after, but as soon as I start to go higher (above about d or e), then the tone usually starts to thin out. I'm left with something which is acceptable, not offensive, but just doesn't have the depth and 'oomph' that I can get lower down.
Is there anything I can do to the reed to get it with a more consistent tone throughout?
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Author: OboeGoldCoast
Date: 2011-04-19 00:38
Hi Claire
I too have being having problems with my Marigaux I have fixed it by having a very open staple (Gloitin ones for me), And straight away my flat A , B , C (second octive keys) came in to tune to a point I have no lip adjustment going up the octive to High C.
Best of luck
Nicholas
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Author: claire70
Date: 2011-04-19 07:00
It's not flatness per se that's the problem (although my c an octave above middle c is horrendously flat - but that's not what I'm talking about here!). It's that the nice tone disappears once I go higher.
But I will also try experimenting with different staples!
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2011-04-19 12:46
Claire,
I don't know where you are located - however, I would suggest that if you have any problems with the scale - you should have the Oboe tuned. RDGwoods is who I would recommend. They have repair people on both the East and West coast of the US.
Now about the timbre/tone on your upper notes - this could be a reed making problem. Do you scrape your own reeds?
If yes, then it seems the tip of the reed is unbalanced and/or too thin - if the tip is unbalanced and too thin - the tone quality will be thin and poor in the upper register.
Also could it be you are making your reeds easy to play by relying only on easing/scraping the tip of the reed?
The tip should have a blend in it - with slightly more cane in the center - something like a fan shape. The sides of the tip should be well defined. To ease the reed - you need to scrape in various areas (blend - back) to get the desired results - which is a whole discussion unto itself ..... maybe this could be another thread to be started - or I will start one.
Mark
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2011-04-19 14:31
Claire, flatness CAN be the root of the problem. This is caused by excess pressure and unnecessary strain to push the pitch up, which affects the tone quality. You mention Ke Xun reeds. You are right about their reeds having a certain kind of quality in sound which is very admirable (those that work of course....). When you say D or E, the D and E in the staff or above the staff?
Howard
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Author: claire70
Date: 2011-04-19 14:39
Ermmm.... I'm not sure where this sideline into flatness has come from! I'm not generally worried about being flat (if anything I err towards sharpness higher up - I'm fully aware that this is me not the reed). There is one note on my oboe, the C, that sags a lot (checked out by Howarths at least twice - they say there's nothing more they can do), but apart from that, flatness is not my issue here!
Howard, I mean the D and E at the top of the staff. If I was only losing tone an octave about that, I would be happy!
Mark, I remember reading that thin tips are desirable... But maybe I'm overdoing it. Hmmm. I'll try scraping less from the centre for a while.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2011-04-19 16:11
Sounds like the reeds to me, and this is usually the result of
1. the tip being too thin in the center and thus collapsing on itself. OR
2. The reed being squeezed or bitten and thus sounding pinched. OR
3. Air support not being fully there, so the reed not vibrating properly. OR
4. The reed being out of balance and not vibrating properly on it's own. OR
5. A combination of both.
In order to test #1, just scrape a reed with a thicker center of the tip. Martin thinks of the center of the tip as a windshield clear out to the tip of the reed. I tend to think of it more as an inverted windshield (concave, vs. convex).
In order to test #2, put the reed in the corner of your mouth where you can't really bite, and play it.
In order to test #3, blow harder.
In order to test #4, if the previous 3 pass, then it's probably #4.
My guess is that it's a combination of multiple items. Marigaux is a well built instrument and I'm not sure you should assume that the problem is the instrument first. In fact, I think many good instruments such as Marigaux and Howarth are so well built, that they can easily hide flaws in the reed that don't necessarily show up unless you do something unique, and therefore don't always give accurate feedback. That's why it's better to learn how to hear consistent qualities in the crow, but that's a different thread....
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2011-04-19 16:27
I agree.
The Marigaux is very forgiving .............. It dark core will make a light reed sound full in the lower register.
Be careful when you scrape the tip.
Report back and tell us what happens.
Mark
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2011-04-19 16:36
What i would be curious at this point is to what extend this nice tone dissapears....since sharpness can be a problem, consider using a wider shape. Over lapping reeds also become thinner towards the top in my opinion with short scrape reeds. (the best ke xun reeds dont overlap, although reeds that don't overlap can give you flatness, even serious flatness for the more sensitive notes) It's also true that thinning the tip too much which will result in the lost of tone, but the shape of the tip contributes too (straighter = brighter, as opposed to more inverted V = warmer). I perfer a straighter tip most of the time. My tips are generally 0.08-0.10 mm but always blending into the heart area. If there is a profound step into the tip, this can cause the thinning of the sound as you describe as well. A gradual blend is very very important! (before you lose your octave G that is....ha...ha....)
Side tracking a "little" from this thread:
The flat middle C is not a problem that you yourself have. (i have heard so many recordings of famous famous people who have that, but perhaps everything else is so good that we don't need to care anymore) General sharpness was common too. I had it for years. I thought it was an instrument problem as well. Brought it to one of the best instrument makers/repairman in the UK/Sweden, he said he did the maximum, and still i had problems. I tried a million types of staples. Indeed, narrower ones will bring the C and G up, bigger ones the opposite. Narrower shapes work very much the same. But really, the ones i mentioned before all brought new problems after they corrected old ones. For example, Chiarugi no. 1 will give you stable and nice middle C's, but they will also bring down the 2nd and 3rd octaves for many French type oboes. Another example: narrower shapes tend to close more quickly and have less energy in sound.
But my conclusion now is that i used to have such flat reeds, and really i was trying to push them so high up (and you know it's NOT very hard with the tuning A) that actually my technique was compensating (constantly pushing everything else as high up as i can and "attempting" to push middle c up, haha) on those reeds and compensating really has its limits. (it can be blinding for many years, even for very accomplished players)
Accoustically speaking as well as intonation wise, there are some notes on the oboe that doesnt sit well OR sits so well that you can't do much about it with physical alteration. Middle C seems to be one of those notes. The only way to alter the pitch of that note is actually to make a reed shorter by way of shorter or longer staples. Once you have decided on a staple you like in general but gives flat C's, try a shorter version of it. At first you might get something like a good C but everything else is too sharp, but keep playing, practising and working on it, you might be pleasantly surprised! Now my reeds are 69-70mm with 45mm Chiarugi no. 2/2+ staples! (Guercio D12, Glotin, and Chiarugi 2 are all very similar and fit basically with the same mandrel) And i have had beautiful Ke Xun reeds (72mm) so old that everything was 20 cents sharp but still had flat Cs. Ha! And i played wonderful concerts with them and no one spoke of the Cs....(perhaps really we shouldnt care too much about it but how can we oboists not....)
On the other hand, that is my oboe and my embouchure and way of playing. These reeds of mine are crap and basically too sharp for a friend's Patricola but perfect for another 2 Marigauxs and a Loree that i have tried. I play a Buffet Greenline. I know people who play on reeds that are 74mm long on a Marigaux 901 that sounds absolutely amazing (but complains too of flat c's and g's). Go figure!
Regards,
Howard
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2011-04-19 16:39
Assuming there is absolutely nothing "wrong" with your playing, i would 2nd everyone's comment about the tip. It really matters not to have an "empty" center of the tip, i.e. the center of the tip MUST be thicker than the sides of the tip, and it has to be once again, gradual.
"..." on wrong because really there is no such thing as wrong if a particular way gives you good results other than a few tiny idiosyncrasies. Observe how Stefan Schilli plays. Call the principal oboe of the Bavarian Radio Symphony wrong! Ha!
Howard
Post Edited (2011-04-19 16:42)
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Author: claire70
Date: 2011-04-20 07:07
Wow, thanks for the detailed comments everyone. I will go and work on my tips and let you know :-)
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-04-20 10:43
Lots of really good advice here. This is one where I'll be reading more than contributing.
I only noticed that when a reed is longer, short notes (A, B, C in any register) tend to be sharper in relation to the longer notes (F, E, D) --- and vice-versa.
I've also noticed that if I unslip a reed because I find it choking, then it starts sagging like crazy.
Important: when I pay attention to the advice HautboisJJ gave on articulation (I notice a building of air in the throat), my sound is MUCH better and tuning is more easily controlled. You can find his demonstrations here:
http://robindeshautbois.blogspot.com/2011/01/wake-up-from-dream.html
Right now, I can only do this playing loudly. BUT in the past I noticed that when I practice only loud and very loud, afterwards the soft playing becomes much easier (tuning and responsiveness).
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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