 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-03-29 14:22
This is probably a question for CJWright, RobinDesHautbois and all experts out there with experience with RDG gougers. I would like to know what you think of this gouger. Eg ease of use, repeatability of gouges, maintenance, features, etc.....
I am re-visiting my quest to get some kind of gouger now that I have some time to do some detailed research.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-03-29 15:07
Having only used one machine, I can only judge by what I see on the web-sites.
Tonight I'll put up part 2 of my post on gouging: principles of gouging using my machine to explain what NOT to get!
The RDG machine seems fine in terms of simplicity of use and adjustment. I'm not sure if it does double-radius. As with most machines today, you'd need serious work to change the shape of the blade.
I like the looks of "Forrests Oboe Gouging Machine"
http://www.forrestsmusic.com/gougers.htm
because of its 1-piece construction. However, I just noticed something funny under the guide wheel... need more info
I also think this one looks promising:
http://www.westwinddoublereed.com/Gougers/Oboe-Gouger-p16.html
for its apparent simplicity of design and ability to change beds.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2011-03-29 15:53
Just in case someone needs it, here is a link to the gouge-wars thread:
http://test.woodwind.org/oboe/BBoard/read.html?f=10&i=13928&t=13917
A great deal of very useful information is on that thread. In particular, Cooper makes a great case for the double-radius gouge, which is not possible to achieve with many machines (e.g., the mechanically brilliant innoledy gouger).
Drew says that a good reedmaker with a sharp knife can make a decent reed from almost any gouge. I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle - well-gouged cane is far easier to scrape down, and a poorly-gouged piece of cane will almost never make a great reed.
The thread makes for good reeding.
J.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2011-03-29 17:11
I think the RDG machine is a fine machine. I've heard people get good results, particularly with a 10.5mm blade in an 11mm bed
The one complaint I have with the RDG machine is the last time I saw one, the rod which the carriage slides along is a bit thin, and could be bendable, but most people are gentle enough.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-03-29 19:42
I am very happy with my RDG gouger. Much happier than with my old GRAF.
I might have to try Cooper's suggestion of the smaller blade. I have an 11 mm bed and blade now, and it usually produces useful reeds even at my Denver mile-high altitude.
One local pro here (Peter Cooper) says he needs a smaller bed and blade and uses 9.5 mm to accommodate the high altitude.
I find the RDG very stable and however its built-in guillotine not suitable for my initial cane preparation. I still use the old GRAF chopper for initial cutting.
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Author: Bryanwalker
Date: 2011-03-29 21:26
I currently am trying a used RDG EH machine and I am not particularly happy with the machine.
I love how easy the gouger is to use. I love the ball on top of the carriage. It makes gouging easy on the hands! (say that with a graf machine).
The guillotine is not its best feature. I find it small and awkward to use, and doesn't accommodate large pieces of cane. I much prefer my reeds n' stuff stand alone EH guillotine.
The biggest issue I have with the machine is the gouge. The gouge ratio is too thick for me, .70-.60. I prefer thinner sides. Also I feel that the RDG machines produce a reed that one needs to scrape to release vibrations. I much prefer to have a machine set up to make reeds that I need to scrape to contain vibrations. With the RDG machine I found that my EH were much thinner than my reeds made on a Ross gouger. Which has changed the way my reeds play (I feel for the worse). I will be glad when I ship the gouger off tomorrow.
If you are looking to buy a gouger I would recommend the Ross, an Opus one or a used Graf machine. Graf machines sometimes come up for sale ( I have one if you are interested in buying a Graf machine).
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-03-29 22:04
Cooper. Don't have the GRAF any more. Sold it ( well sort of ....never actually got paid) but kept the guillotine and planer.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-03-29 22:09
From looking at the pictures and reading people's comments, you should be able to get thinner sides by purchasing a blade with a bigger diameter.
Can you post a picture of you Graf? I wonder if my old clunker might be one.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-03-29 22:09
Bryan,
Have you tried to reset the gouge to thinner dimensions?
I will say, the adjustment mechanism is a little counter-intuitive, located under the carriage and requires multiple Allen wrench adjustments. But its calibrated in what I think are .01 mm increments.
Care must be taken to ensure the blade never contacts the end stops to avoid hurting the blade.
Still, I prefer it to the Graf approach for thickness adjustments.
-Craig
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-03-29 22:27
Cooper W said this in the "gouger wars" thread:
{For all of my undergraduate years I worked on single radius gouging machines (RDG and Ross). Despite attempt after attempt, I could never get the flexibility I desired with the stability I needed, mainly because the sides were too thick and once I began scraping down the sides the reed became unstable. After many many years, I finally switched to a SINGLE (??) radius gouge and the hypothetical "oboe reed heavens opened up and shed its sunshine upon thee." "}
Did u mean u switched to a double radius, after many years and attempts at flexibility on RDG and Ross ?
I see what you mean, if the sides are too think, scraping down is a very manual affair and make the read unstable. If the gouge starts thinner at the sides, then there is definitely less work. Does the RDG or Ross consistently give the thick sides like you described ?
How would you compare the RDG vs a Ross ?
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Author: Bryanwalker
Date: 2011-03-30 00:36
The Ross machine gives you thinner sides. I previously had a Ross EH machine and it came to me set up gouging at .70-.55.
I really liked the machine and foolishly sold it. I liked the Ross machines so much that I may be purchasing a used Ross EH machine soon.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2011-03-30 02:14
Uh, yes. That's a BIG whoops. I meant double radius.
Last I used them both, the Ross had a more vibrancy, while the RDG was as Bryan put it, along the lines of "scrape to release the vibrations". I believe the Innoledy falls in this category as well.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
Post Edited (2011-03-30 02:21)
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-03-30 02:26
Hi Cooper,
With you on the ratio, but I thought the problem was .70 center and .60 mm sides.
He should be able to adjust that so center is .58 - .6- and sides are .45 - .50 mm.
BTW, your comment about a 10.5 blades in a 11 mm bed... would that create thicker sides?
What cane tube diameter is best for that?
-Craig
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-03-30 04:27
Cooper:
You said:
{Last I used them both, the Ross had a more vibrancy, while the RDG was as Bryan put it, along the lines of "scrape to release the vibrations". I believe the Innoledy falls in this category as well.}
Maybe, it is the vocab that I am missing....I think you meant the vibrancy of the reeds made by Ross vs RDG ? "Scraping to release vibrancy", what does that mean ?
Anyway, I dont understand the "vibrancy", care to elucidate ?
Thx
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2011-03-30 05:11
Man, my grammar is going down the tubes.
The Ross gouge had more vibrancy. Meaning as I approached the blank, the reeds wanted to vibrate more and quicker. This directed my scraping to focus on refining these vibrations through a well-tiered tip, good balance, etc.
The RDG gouge produced blanks that wanted to vibrate later, meaning I needed to scrape more off. In this situation, my focus as a reedmaker becomes scraping to get enough vibration out of the reed, but not too much to completely destabilize it and leave it flat and weak.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-03-30 06:12
Cooper:
Is this true for "off the shelf" RDG or Ross gougers, without it being custom tweaked by the vendor for you, for the vibrancy, I mean.
Sounds like RDG with the vibrancy happening later, means a little more work on the blank. Why do you think this is happening to the RDG ?
Is Innoledy similar to the RDG, in that its takes work to get the vibrancy going ?
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-03-30 06:48
Hi, Cooper -
I'm a little confused as well by your 'vibrancy' distinction. It's not like the gouger imparts it's personality to the cane. If the gouge dimensions are the same, the results ought to be the same unless something else is happening that you don't see, like a dull blade crushing rather than planing the fibers (or the guides crushing the cane) or some behind the scenes thing. The cane doesn't know who made the gouger, it just experiences the process.
I used a RDG gouger for years until I developed my own and I thought it was great. For a single radius gouger, of course...
Haubois Francais -
If you are thinking of an Innoledy gouger, look at it very carefully. I think it's an elegant design and very well made, But -
As far as I can see there is no way to resharpen the blade without changing the gouge profile. That means that, as the blade wears incrementally with each piece of cane the machine changes over time from a gouger to a contoured splitter. Which it sort of is anyway, given the thickness of the chip it makes.
I like a razor sharp blade that leaves a smooth surface, just like my reed knife does when I sharpen it.
'Nuff said; I'm a competitor and I don't want to be seen as trashing the competition, just pointing out what I see as shortcomings.
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2011-03-30 06:59
Hi Bob,
I understand your opinion, but I respectful disagree. Since different blades have different rates of flare, they cut different amounts of cane off of a single piece. A piece with a wider top and more flair closer out on the sides (I'm thinking the curve like a wider end of an egg) might gouge away cane from the channels more, which when scraping the blank, make the reed vibrate more. A curve closer to the narrower end of an egg might leave more in the channels, and perhaps thicker sides, and thus require more cane scraped away in order to gain sufficient vibrations for my taste. However, by the time I have gained enough vibration, I might have scraped away the structure too much and have destabilized the reed. In this sense, the gouge can change the entire way one approaches scraping a reed.
Cooper
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2011-03-30 08:29
Quote:
LOL "Gouger wars" thread. My God that was a long discussion. That's when I wasn't a DMA student and actually had time!
 Yes, sorry about the label, but I can't tell you how much fun it was watching you and Drew slugging it out I remember reading that thread with a big toothy grin on my face ..
I have the utmost respect for BOTH of you guys, and I learned more about gouging and cane from your arguments that I could have EVER learned from books, theses etc.
This bboard simply rocks. No other way to describe it.
J.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-03-30 10:30
--- I meant to put this post under huboboe's post..... my bad -----
I have to say, after resolving with tons of headaches the problems of my beaten up old machine, Robert Hubbard's looks very attractive, by the pictures on his web-site, anyway.
Saving money for an oboe d'amore so I'll have to put up with ol' clunker! If I were still on stage, that would be a different story.
There's something that just strikes me as wrong with the innoledy, it gouges REALLY quickly, and that yells "ripping" to me.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
Post Edited (2011-03-30 14:56)
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-03-30 10:36
A repairer I used to know, trained in making period instruments corroborated about wood cutting what my late brother taught me about cutting high-density metals. There are 2 angles between the bed (cane) and the blade: the top of the blade and the bevel at the bottom. Both affect not only the shaving, but the pressure put on the material (cane) and the "dig behaviour".
The smaller the cosine between either blade surface and the bed, the less vertical pressure and less dig. The top blade surface controls the dig.
The geometry of cutting is a HUGE area for mathematical and physical study, so I guess anecdotal experience will have to suffice.
For sure, the shape of the blade relative to the curve profile changes the profile of the cane and thus how one scrapes in the end. I tend to think less scraping is better, but its not as simple as that.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2011-03-30 12:44
Quote:
There's something that just strikes me as wrong with the innoledy, it gouges REALLY quickly, and that yells "ripping" to me.
I glanced through the manual for the iNNOLEDY machine. He recommends four passes at four different settings, the last one being a hairsbreadth. Probably has better end results than you think. He also says you can gouge 8000 pieces before you need to sharpen the blade.
There are many, many factors here, all of which will have some effect on the resulting piece of gouged cane:
o wet or dry
o both blade angles - leading and following edge
o hardness and sharpness of blade
o The bed profile
o The blade profile
o Single radius or Double radius
o The speed of the cut
o The depth of the final cut (or of all the cuts?)
o The quality of the cane (of course. Who could forget that?)
Robin, I'm sure you can add more to this list. I deliberately did NOT look at your website before I wrote this, to avoid undue influence. In any event, this is a huge problem with far too many variables. I strongly suspect that the only advice that can be given is:
o Find something that works for you
o Don't change anything
J.
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-03-30 15:32
Your reasoning is quite right (no undue influence). I don't know the machine because I never handled one and the documentation they provide is light at best. Four passes does soften the ripping blow.
There are all kinds of things that can make a blade and/or machine good or bad. Plus, I really get the impression that different people, with different playing styles, of different body physiognomies and different weather patterns simply like different cane!
My observations come from my machine alone: a beaten-up old clunker! Plus I'm incorrigible and fit with what Dr. Leonard "Bones" McCoy said in Star Treck (Motion Picture): "I know engineers, the like to CHANGE things!"
So for me, a plane-on-bed gouger is the best. If the Innoledy works for someone, definitely more power (through fewer headaches) to you!
But to answer the original question: Hautbois Français, you're an engineer too.... if you like to putter around and mess-up things so you can figure out how to fix them, then I'd say get the RDG or the Hubbard.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2011-03-30 15:37
RobinDesHautbois wrote:
> The geometry of cutting is a HUGE area for
> mathematical and physical study, so I guess
> anecdotal experience will have to suffice.
So... since we oboists have such vivid imaginations and no real evidence for anything... I guess that means we can safely go on blaming the gouge for all our reedmaking woes? Whew! That's a relief. For a minute this thread had me worried. Thought I might actually have to learn to scrape. :-)
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-03-30 15:49
D'oooooohhhhhhhh ---- don't go hijacking this thread for scraping..... open a Pandora's box on short vs. long scrape again (aye-aye-aye chihuahua!). ![[whoa]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie10.gif)
But you'll get no arguments from me against learning to scrape adaptively to whatever piece of cane you get..... sometimes fails, but adaptive scraping needs to work no often than not!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2011-03-30 16:19
RobinDesHautbois wrote:
> D'oooooohhhhhhhh ---- don't go hijacking this
> thread for scraping..... open a Pandora's box on
> short vs. long scrape again (aye-aye-aye
> chihuahua!).
Hehehe, no worries, Robin. There'll be no hijacking. Just making a bit of mischief! I get such a kick out of these gouging threads. :-) Anyway... long-scrape, short-scrape... meh... we'll scrape no more once we discover the perfect gouge... it'll churn out finished reeds whole!
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2011-03-30 17:48
yup, gouger with built-in inverse profiling ... scrape off the bark, clip and you're done ...
I think I'll apply for the patent right now.
J.
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-03-31 00:03
Robin et al:
It is not like I am adjusting the Fermi-Dirac levels by fooling with the As+ or B- implant doses for transistors on Si, which I did in my past life.....adjusting a mechanical gouger and completely messing it up would be more like what I end up doing and giving up on it totally. I am going to need to have something simple, that works consistently every time. It is likely, I wont even venture starting out on a double radius.
I am one of those who is a total klutz when it comes to anything mechanical, manual, screws and stuff !!
I am in the middle of reading Cooper's gouger war stories and it is good reading like you said. It rocks !!
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-03-31 00:32
AHA! Cooper, you are hoist on your own petard.
What you describe is not a difference in gougers but a difference in blade profile (perhaps as a difference in the manufacturer's preference).
Let me throw out a couple of terms here for simplicity. Radius is the size of the circular shape of the grind. The 'angle' is angle behind the cutting edge that the radius is imposed on the flat blade. 'Mounting angle' is the slope on the carriage to which you mount the blade. 'Back relief' is a term from metal cutting tools referring to the steepness of the angle behind the cutting edge that allows the tool to cut into the metal without the heel rubbing on the cut surface.
On every gouger I have looked at (a lot of them) the mounting angle has been 45º, so we can call that constant. For argument's sake, let's assume the radius remains constant as well...
If the blade is ground at 45º and mounted at 45º the cane will see a circular cutting edge at whatever radius you choose to grind and the heel of the blade will rub on the cane just like the guides. (Think of a rod parallel to the bed and angled at 45º on it's front face.
In practice, that's what the RDG gouger is, although the angle is more like 43º to lift the heel of the blade slightly off the cane, presenting only the cutting edge to contact the cane. (That 2º is the relief angle).
BUT, if you change the angle at which you grind the blade, then the effects you spoke of come into play. As you decrease the angle of the grind (grind the radius 'flatter' on the blade) the contour of the cutting edge becomes more elliptical; the nose elongates, and although the radius has not changed, it takes longer along the length of the blade to reach the edges.
If you decrease the angle of the grind (grind the radius 'steeper' on the blade) the profile becomes less elliptical, fatter and squatter and ultimately square across.
So your egg description is accurate, but how you get from one end of the egg to the other is simple geometry: grind angle.
The hard part is figuring out what profile you want on the interior of the cane to optimize your reed architecture.
Kind of like most other facets of reed making, you either take what comes with the gouger or you experiment with the blade until you find what works best. At that point, measure the angle and the radius and you can repeat it forever. If your profile is not a pure ellipse, that's another story; you can't grind it on my setup but could make a template controlled setup (sorta like a cane profiler) that would give you repeatability. If you grind by hand, I defy you to make two of anything quite the same. (But maybe you've got micrometer fingertips.) ; - )
Attached are photos of my blade grinding setup. You can see that the blade is mounted at an angle to the wheel: the angle of the grind is produced by the angle on the end of the shaft upon which the blade is mounted. (The blade shown was roughed out before heat treat but not yet ground...) The Radius depends on how close the grind is to the centerline of the shaft; the further away, the larger the radius.
For a single radius gouger, size on size is probably the best approach. For a double radius machine a smaller radius or a shallower angle is probably a better choice, though for what radius and/or angle I defer to your judgment, Cooper.
This is a long winded version of what I was trying to say in my first post. Hope it's clearer...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2011-03-31 00:44
That's what I was trying to describe, however you did so much more complete. I think different manufacturers use different grind angles. And if one decided to change the grind angle, you would also have to change the guide to match.
So I would take the stance that different grind angles can encourage and discourage different areas of a gouged piece of cane to be thicker or thinner, thus causing a reed to be more vibrant quicker, or less vibrant until more cane is scraped off.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-03-31 00:51
Cooper:
Thicker piece of cane is vibrant quicker, or thinner ? That would be something u described a Ross. Then the RDG would be ?
Sorry, I am a little confused. I thot the thinner would be vibrant and quicker like u described earlier.
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-03-31 01:11
J. Hoyla -
Your analysis and your advice are right on. It's the finding out what works for you... (grin)
As to the Innoledy gouger, I don't think you can gouge 8000 pieces and the blade suddenly gets dull. It gets slowly and progressively duller with use, like all cutting edges everywhere. If the limit is 8000 pieces, then the first 4000, as you go from sharp to halfway dull might all be ok, but the last 4000, as you go from halfway dull to really dull have to be a nightmare. Can you imagine the the effect effect on your reed making of 4000 reeds made with less than optimal cane? How long do you tolerate a somewhat dull reed knife before you are driven to resharpen it?
Robin -
The relationship of the top angle of the blade and the 'dig' which you describe is accurate, but with the proviso that on every gouger I have looked at the blade mounts at 45º, there is little choice. The guides presumably hold the cane down in the bed, counteracting the lifting effect of the 'dig'. The greater influence, in my opinion, is the thickness of the chip you are taking; the thicker the chip, the more lift. That's why I designed my gouger with an adjustable front guide that allows you to expose more or less of the blade (and the rear guide), letting you to adjust your chip thickness and keeping the rear guide firmly on the cane.
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-03-31 02:13
Cooper or others:
I saw another gouger from www.oboestuff.net. Do you have any comment or input as to features etc for this gouger ?
It looks like they make their own gouger.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2011-03-31 03:17
Thicker would vibrate later, usually.
Thinner would vibrate sooner, usually.
Proportions matter. If you have thicker sides it can change things and make the blank vibrate later. If your internal spine from a double radius gouge is too wide it will vibrate later, etc.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-03-31 03:48
Cooper:
Reeds N stuff, my mistake, the word "....stuff" threw me off.
Good point you made about the ease of blade replacement. BTW, is the Ross blade easy to change too ? The Ross site seems to lead me to believe that I may need to send back the gouger when the blade needs to be changed out and may need to be set up again.....although, I may be wrong.
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-03-31 03:58
Cooper:
Means, I will need to send it back in future, about about a couple thousand reeds. What would you estimate the limit to be for the Ross ? Just to see if it compares with the rest, as others have indicated.
Alignment and stuff, to fool with that can take forever or totally mess it up, if I dont know what I am doing, right ? I know it is wont an impossible feat for those already experienced with gougers.
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-03-31 06:50
Robin -
Thank you for the kind words about my gouger. I don't know if I'm out of line blowing my own horn here, but in light of the comments of ease of blade change on the Reeds 'n Stuff gouger, I'd like to point out that the blade on the Westwind gouger can be removed from the machine, hand sharpened (on the flat back of the blade so as not to change the profile) and returned to the exact same location in the gouger bed in less than 10 minutes. And that's any profile, not just a circular one.
This means that the first hint you get of a fuzzy cut, off comes the blade and soon you're up and running like new.
Cooper -
I agree with you that different gouging profiles will produce different results. It should be possible to optimize to suit you best, but it's a lot of trial and error. I think that's what Tabuteau was about with his legendary all night blade grinding sessions.
Do you really think the guides need to match the blade profile exactly? For anything but a circular (from the cane's and guide's point of view) profile, that would be a tough proposition.
I would think as long as it was a reasonably close fit and holding the top of the cane down and the sides apart, that the rigidity of the bark would keep the cane from distorting even if it weren't touched in all places.
Have we solved the World's problems yet?
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-03-31 10:45
Hautbois Français:
=> again, I have never seen these machines, so my opinion is pure conjecture based on experience with my clunker and pictures on the internet!
The Udo Heng (Reeds 'n Stuff) gouger always left be cold because the blade cannot be reshaped. I see no advantage in having to change the entire blade assembly instead of sharpening. If huboboe's blade need only be polished on the flat side, then there is a huge advantage.
cjwright & huboboe:
Ideally the "guide" (plane bottom) would have the same profile as the blade, but it's not necessary by vector mechanics. What is necessary is symmetry. That's why mine will sometimes grab the cane and swing it to one side: bye-bye cane! There are dents worn-out from rubbing against an improperly shaped end-plate: these dents are a little everywhere, so there's nothing I can do to balance it out...... dents in the guide mean past gashes in the blade!
General:
Removal and replacement of the blade, with minimal loss of calibration is a HUGE advantage: the absolute bane of my current machine. Were I buying, I'd go with Robert's in a heartbeat.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2011-03-31 11:11
I use a Ross gouger - it is recommended to send the machine back to Dan to have the blade sharpened and set properly.
Now having said that - I have owned one for at least 14 years ..... recently I began to adjust the settings my self.
I think the next time I will order a second blade (while I have the first sharpened) and set the blade myself.
It just takes patience and you need a micrometer(s).
There are only a few adjustments to be made: depth - shavings thickness - centering the blade correctly.
Of course if you send the machine back to Dan - he will replace all damaged/worn out parts etc.............
Mark
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2011-03-31 11:17
I gouge about 100 - 200 cane per year - I make about 7- 10 reeds per month.
So I send my Ross gouger back about every three - five years - I like the blade to be very sharp!
Mark
Post Edited (2011-03-31 11:17)
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-03-31 12:30
mjfoboe:
Max blade lifetime for you on the Ross gouger is at 200 pcs of cane gouged per year, is 1000 pieces in 5 years. Min is 100 pcs/yr cane gouged is 300 in 3 years. Is this about right ?
Others are quoting 4000-8000 for other gougers.....or is it an over-estimation of the blade lifetime ?
Robin:
Remember, as a novice gouger, before you got your clunker or even began gouging, werent you also looking for a machine simple enough and consistently gave you the results that you were looking for ? Without having to tinker with the gouger until you got the results you wanted first ?
Huboboe:
I looked at your website for your gouger. You probably make an oboist's "dream" gouger, one that does everything that one can ask for and more. And you are really in the know and very detailed as to the specifics of a dream machine. I notice you are in SJ, off of 17 or 85, do you offer a live demo, if someone is willing to comeby to see you ? BTW, what do you estimate your blade lifetime to be ?
This thread really rocks. In a matter of about 3 days, this has been a very active thread ! I have learnt a lot from those who are very familiar with the topic. Thx for the comments and inputs to everyone who shared here.
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2011-03-31 13:07
you geeks! the amount of time spent writing this thread has produced me many useless reeds instead! =p
Howard
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-03-31 13:14
Hautbois Français:
I bought the old clunker because the opportunity arose to buy for $100 what was being sold on average at $1500. As a music student, you understand the attraction.
Yes indeed, I would have preferred a machine that just worked! In fact, I still do prefer a machine that will just work and I could compensate with shaping, binding and scraping whatever I may dislike in the gouge. My beaten-up old whatever it is has been a learning experience out of necessity.
Be careful with estimates on blade life. 2 factors come into play: hardness of the metal used for the blade and the condition the user considers needing sharpening. In the end, only you can tell that. What I like about "standard" gougers is you CAN sharpen the blade. If you get a machine where the blade comes off and goes back on with minimal impact on the calibration, then there is no worry.
The harder the metal, the longer the life, yes, but the harder it is to hone (fine sharpening). I still think the harder the better; same for scraping knives.
Of course, I cannot over emphasize proper stones: Arkansas hard (the one that looks like milky marble, not the ones that look like stones) or very fine ceramic.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2011-03-31 13:24
No I don't want to imply that 300 - 600 pieces is the max for the gouger.
I just send the gouger back about every three to four years for maintenance.
I cant' really comment on the max use for continuous - heavy use ........... best to ask Dan Ross.
Of course the way you gouge and other factors also influences the life of the blade.
Mark
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Author: johnt
Date: 2011-03-31 15:36
Dan Ross's gouger is very easy to keep in adjustment. He includes the necessary screw drivers (hexagonal) to do this. A tweak each time you gouge cane does the trick. Side to side: easy to eyeball. Or you could use valve gap measuring shims from the automotive industry to get the gap from side to side down to a gnat's posterior, I trow. Dan's gouger also has delerin (nylon?) reed clips vice metal to help blade preservation, a really nice feature. His turnaround time for maintenance & sharpening is about two weeks, pretty good in this day & age. Gouger comes with its own foam lined case & a brush to dust off the machine. It's the complete package @ $950
Best,
john
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-04-01 05:06
Haubois Francais:
I worked for several years in a tool and die shop designing and building cut/form dies that tweaked the wires on electronic components so they would fit in printed circuit boards. The principal clarinetist in my orchestra and an oboist colleague who was a Ray Still student were machining there as well. We spent a fair amount of time talking about what we hated in gouging machines and dreaming of a perfect gouger. Most of the objections were about difficulty of 'setup' - locating the parts accurately - and adjusting things accurately and repeatably.
That's the genesis of this design. I'm glad you like it.
You asked about blade life. When I first envisioned this machine more than 20 years ago, I made 25 sets of many of the critical parts. At that time I contacted the Landwell folks because I really love the steel they use in their knives. They were unwilling (of course) to disclose their proprietary alloy and heat treat process, but they did sell me a bar of steel and I made blade blanks which they heat treated for me. They are the same as the Landwell <hard> knife blades. I haven't counted pieces of cane and, because it's so easy, I resharpen at the first hint of decreased performance, like I do with my reed knife. If you were to just gouge until the blade was truly dull I imagine the blade would equal or exceed anything out there, given the quality of the steel. Actually, until I read this thread I had not seen any estimates of blade life except the Innoledy, and I think, frankly, that 8,000 pieces is a gross exaggeration. Depending on your standards, of course.
As to live demonstrations, I'll be glad to show it off anytime you are in the area. I'm just finishing up a batch of ten - it'll be a couple or three weeks, but if you email me with your schedule we can put something together.
Are you in the Bay Area or will you be passing through?
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-04-01 05:55
Huboboe:
Maybe we should communicate offline, what e-mail do I use ? Some specifics, I would like to cover with you.
From the pix, I couldnt see if you have a guillotine on the gouger. And do I need a pre-gouger ?
I use Landwell myself and use Caswell for the sharpening procedures. I gather from what u said, one can sharpen the blade without havng to buy a new blade or send it out for sharpening and adjustments ? So, this is a completely tweakable machine to one's satisfaction ?
I also think 8000 is an overkill. Knock off a zero and half that is more like what most people will want or need to sharpen any blade. Landwell is a good knife and has served me well for decades now. The only other knife I use is the PA herder, but only as a last resort.......Interesting that your blade is made of Landwell metal !!
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-04-01 13:19
Sent,
Because the PDF writer did not import any videos, you don't see how I split in 2 and in 3.
I just use a thin blade knife for splitting in 2 (needs to be strong enough for whacking - explained below) and any arrow head that you can get from any sports store will do fine to split in 3 (cut the shaft short and put something on the end so you can hit it with the palm of your hand).
I stand the canon (tube cane) upright, just place the knife or arrow on top, then whack the tool with the other hand. It can split in one whack or may require 3-4 whacks, not matter. At this point you couldn't care less about precision. For my part, I'm looking for the flattest slices or split lengths.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-04-01 23:23
Robin:
Thx for the pdf. I will have to slowly plough thru the ton of detail material that you've spent so much time compiling.
BTW, from tube cane to after gouge, what does your yield look like, do you lose about 10-20% ?
Do you pick out each tube cane before gouging ? KI imagine you would. Then what is the criteria that a tube cane makes it to gouging ? It may be already in your pdf, but it is early in the morning, these are some of the things that jumps out at me when I browsed thru your pdf.
I know u spent a lot of time putting the amount of material and pix but it is very valuable stuff.
Thx again !
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-04-02 00:31
You are probably the one who can pull this off...
Automated knife grinder for home use... right up to the last, put the burr on part.
Beveled knife-style. A restore proper angles/basic dimensions, get it shaving sharp and then 3-4 strokes across a ceramic stick hind of thing.
Or perhaps a simpler approach that only works on good knifes from the start. Like my fish-hook and pocket knife sharpeners... kitchen knife, etc. A few pulls and its ready for the burr.
Problem is the beveled dimension does not fit into these common devices.
You obviously have the needed metal working skills out here. Help save oboe hands, please.
![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-04-02 01:03
Thanks for the compliments: I put the stuff up there on my blog in the hopes that it will be useful and/or encouraging to others..... the fact that so many people are reading it is really encouraging to me. (Up to now: 4425 visits from 54 countries --- according to Blogger statistics).
My yield is very high because I tend to keep most of my cane now. It used to be lower (kept under 30%) because I would use only hard cane (smooth when rolling it on my thumb). But this past year, using my adaptive "Euro-scrape" method, I have been able to get very good practice reeds with cane that used to be very bad.... practice reeds, not performance.
=> very low yield is normal and expected, even from the best of producers, though some people have returned bad shipments.
My only real criteria are:
1. flatness: curling inward won't stay on the gouger.
2. age: (very) old is better.... always!
Colour is NOT a good indication, but my favourite is often dark, almost orange (inside) with some brown patches (on the bark). Sometimes, there will be black spots in the cane that gets gouged away.
I discard cane that makes dust when you break it: much too dry.... no "life" left. So far, "green" cane can only be identified when scraping.... I have tried to let it age and even sun-dry it: nothing seems to help.
So now, my yield is closer to 80%, just because I don't care as much about diameter and stuff. The thinner cane with the right shape and my scraping technique suffice for me.
THEN AGAIN: I am not up to your performing standards! Maybe as I get my strength back over a year or two, I will become less permissive with my reeds and more selective with my cane.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
Post Edited (2011-04-02 01:36)
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-04-02 01:07
Robin:
I'd like to watch your video about splitting in 2 or 3. Can you try e-mailing it like before ?
BTW, what are your center and side measurements that u get from your gouger ?
Most people average at 0.58-0.62 in the center and 0.45-0.5 in the sides. I assume, of course, a 3 measurement average, top, middle and bottom.
Robin, Cjwright, Huboboe, mjfoboe, johnt, jhoyla, Oboe_craig and others who wish to contribute:
1. Perhaps, others would like to contribute to this center and side measurements that you are getting from your gouger or what you have set the measurements to be, and if there are deviations, by how much ?
2. What diameter are you using, 10-10.5, 10.5-11 etc....for oboe reeds I mean.
3. What kind of yields are you getting from the tube cane, assuming that you have picked what you want to go on the gouger ? After pre-gouging and gouging, will you get a close to 100% yield, or you lose some at gouging ?
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-04-02 01:27
I'll put my videos on my web site and send you the links in the morning (night for you!). Same e-mail address as for the PDF?
For the thicknesses, Cooper wrote a fantastic reply to a similar question I had over the summer:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=10&i=15967&t=15898
Right now, with my hand-made profile, I'm getting 0.57 in the center and 0.40 on the sides. You can get thinner sides with a bigger blade and thicker sides with a smaller blade (diameter): you don't have to risk ruining a good blade.
In my Montreal days, we used to prefer 0.6 to 0.63. Now that I think back on it, it was all just bragging and no sense: everyone complained that their reeds were either too hard or too unstable --- it seems from some discussions here that the more you scrape, the more you lose the cane's natural stability.
It was almost by accident that I discovered I prefer 0.57: last spring, I was running out of cane and my machine was in a really bad state. So I used the only cane I had left (0.57) expecting it to be bright, buzzy and wobbly.... instead I got a perfect reed with a dark rich mellow sound! The experiment has repeated itself sufficiently.
=> The only Internet reference I found on German scraping also prefers a gouge of 0.58
The cane I bought from Roseau Chantant (shaped to experiment with different shapers) is not as thin on the sides. His cane selection is meticulous, so very high quality, but the sound is always brighter and a little bit more harsh (to be more exact, less mellow).
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-04-02 01:34
Robin:
The same e-mail because it accepts up to 50MB attachments which is great, but not much of other things that I use this server....damn thing is in a language that I can hardly even read, and translations are even worse, totally incomprehensible !!!
Thx for the inputs again. Lets see if the others will contribute too.
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-04-02 01:44
I have read Cjwrights responses to Robin....talks about the blade being centered. One question that jumps up, is over time and how long does a blade stay centered without having to be adjusted ? It would be painful to have to adjust the blade every so often, like say tens of reads even, dont u think ?
Other than sheer eye balling and using some kind of vernier or ruler, how does one make sure that the blade is centered and not tilted on its sides ?
Post Edited (2011-04-02 01:47)
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2011-04-02 02:24
Reading though this thread, one can't help but wonder what, say, Ramm used to do. Because he certainly wasn't playing around with modern tool steel and micrometers.
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-04-02 04:37
Hi, gang -
First off, Oboe Francais suggested the very thing I was talking to Cooper about offline yesterday. I defer to him and to those who have actually played with gouge dimensions. I've always tried for the classic 45 - 60 - 45 gouge, and I need to learn more especially about double radius gouging. I'm going to start a new thread so we don't have to navigate so far down this one. Please join in. (How could I prevent it???)
Oboe Francais: Hey, I'm an equal opportunity praiser. Landwell makes a really fine knife, the best knife I have used - until I designed the one that will be unveiled at the IDRS in June. Look on the website soon.
You can check how well your blade is centered by gouging to completion without turning the cane. Then measure the sides for evenness...
Craig: Don't know if you were talking to me or Robin, but I'll think on it. Do you know the carbide blade sharpener called the Samuri Shark? It sharpens blades, scissors, etc with an angled carbide scraping blade. (Google it). It might be your answer. I'm not fond of aggressive sharpeners for finish sharpening because they are hard to control and wear out the blade too rapidly, but, as I said, I'll think on it.
Robin: I make a splitter out of a 3 bladed arrow point but I dull the edges quite a bit both for safety and because I want it to split along the 'grain' of the cane, not cut across it.
Mike: Yup, Ramm didn't have fancy tools. Check out the engravings in the front of the Barrett Oboe Method. It's a couple of generations later than Mozart, but the tools are probably the same: scrapers of different dimensions.
I'll start that new thread now. See y'all there...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-04-02 05:18
Re: sharpening techniques....
I would gladly trade off up to 75% of a 'normal' reed knife's life for a more efficient approach to sharpening.
I hone using 10 -25 strokes frequently during reed making but really kind of resent the time to do basic sharpening of the metal.
I do it, and only make say 250 - 300 reeds per year, but still, I am just saying.
The simpler $10 tungston thing or a $200 machine would be a God-Send.
And I can tell from your posts you are the man for the job.
I will be happy to alpha and beta test as needed...
Post Edited (2011-04-02 05:19)
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-04-02 05:58
Robin:
I looked at your video clips on splitting and, Lo and Behold, you have my 3-blade splitter and my pregouger. All you need now is my gouger... (grin)
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-04-02 12:14
It seems I love to play the Devil's advocate because I KIND-OF have to agree with you on that, Mike
Listen, first off, the fact that we have these sophisticated tools makes our lives easier, period. However, I get the distinct impression that modern reed makers are trying to scape-goat something --- anything --- for the inconsistent results we get with reeds.
On Twitter during the holidays, someone had linked a museum-library artifact of a baroque oboist in some French court requesting the Duke (or whatever noble) purchase at least 6 dozen reeds a year for him because there is usually only 1 good reed per dozen. The tools certainly make life easier, but we're still hearing complaint after complaint.
For my part, I really have to wonder how trustworthy the difference of 0.01mm is on a very living material. Profiles and curvature description, yes for both gouge and shapes, I have seen the difference, but overall measurement... absolutes don't cut it in my mind.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-04-02 13:56
Cooper talks about a 10.5mm blade on the 11mm bed and people using the RDG having great success......excuse my ignorance, what will this do ?
What tube cane diameter should be used, for this set up ?
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-04-02 14:17
Found this on oboecane.com about bed and blade ratio:
" The side thickness is directly related to the bed/blade ratio. If you have a 10.5mm bed you will need a blade with a greater diameter to have thinner sides. Eg. If you desire sides (measured on a shaped piece of cane) to be 20 thinner than the centre. For a 10.5mm bed you will need a 11.4mm blade and for a 10mm bed you will need a 10.9mm blade. "
In Cooper's post, the 11/10.5 will yield a THICKER side ??
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-04-02 14:49
This is an interesting thesis on Ferrillo gouger but also compares others, RDG, Ross, Opus1 etc in brief, that someone wrote in 2010:
http://etd.lib.fsu.edu/theses/available/etd-05102010-090145/unrestricted/Kistler_K_Treatise_2010.pdf
Post Edited (2011-04-02 14:56)
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2011-04-02 15:28
My center gouge is .58. about .45 on sides ......
I prefer 10.5 diameter cane.
I use multiple suppliers and batches of cane.
I agree with everyone - the quality of the shavings tell quite a lot about the reed outcome. Nice shavings - no dust and no straggly pieces.
The yield varies - it depends how picky your are in the selection process. It best top be very selective - so the yield varies - not a 100% - maybe 75% on a good day.
Mark
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2011-04-02 16:01
That is indeed a very fine resource.
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2011-04-02 16:58
Once the blade is centered - it usually doesn't move.
If it does - on the Ross gouger there are two adjustment screws.
You would just test the finished product with a micrometer(s) to check every once in a blue moon - or if you can see problems - or your reeds are not functioning properly.
I had an adjustment problem about two years ago. It made my reeds funky to say the least ................
However, since I bought my micrometer - I now feel quite comfortable adjusting the gouger. On the Ross gouger - It really is no big deal.
Mark
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-04-02 20:07
Thanks for the tip on Samuri Shark. I did mean you due to your other works, but Robin or me or anyone who can figure this out will be helping many reed makers.
Might make a couple $ in the process as well.
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-04-02 20:29
Ditto Mike's response. What a great body of information.
Are you aware of any such 'papers' that use audio to demonstrate reed variables?
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-04-02 21:07
This is a most interesting resource and I will link on my blog. Thanks for pointing it out. It is amazing how the drawing from Barett, the pictures and my gouger look the same! THANK GOD the double bevel (all the pictures on the thesis) have been replaced!
One note, using the comparator to adjust the carriage height is not as precise as it looks. You cannot use the same principle between the blade tip and the carriage base in a way that simple arithmetic would guarantee the center thickness you want. Especially in those old machines where the blade holder by no means provides dependable calibration.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-04-03 02:09
Robin:
I got your videos thx. Like said, it is a series of still pix put together and no sound. But, it gets the point across.
wmv files are fine. avi has a strange thing sometimes it does cut off towards the end, if u hv language option, sometimes it suddenly switches. Only in avi all these uexplanable bugs happen. mpg though large are a little more reliable.
BTW, I was wondering if you hv a bed/blade measurement for your gouger ? The std seems to be 11mm/11mm. And what diameter tube cane do you use in your clunker ? What are your center and side measurements that you use ?
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-04-03 08:49
Very legitimate question --- and thanks for the info on file formats!
Yes my bed has an 11m very precisely (according to my Mitutoyo radius gage). I'm favouring bigger diameters (10.5-11.0mm) because my reeds tend to be naturally more open (weather? scraping style? binding style? combination?). It's OK because I need spring in my reeds, but the wider cane, theoretically, should help my endurance.
But remember, these diameters are an average of what's in the shipment. A difference of 0.5mm measure with a caliper can look like a huge change in the arc.
My gouger works fine with all diameters: cane is grass, so it is rather pliable. I don't think contraction or expansion during the gouging process (if your canon has a different diameter) hinders the cane at all, especially if you soak it for 30 minutes as huboboe recommends. Leave the gouged cane age for a few weeks before shaping and binding and whatever effects will have dissipated.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-04-03 13:07
I can't describe my blade diameter because I use a different profile that what you'll get from any maker. Because my blade was badly damaged and I could not find anyone who was willing to fix it (before my internet life), I decided to do everything by hand.
I started with God-Knows-What diameter blade: ground a hollow into the bevel and just got rid of the gashes using my Mitutoyo radius-gage to get the best curve and symmetry I could. The result is an oblong shape over a double-bevel that gives me a broad center of 0.57mm and sides (on the ears) of 0.40mm
I really recommend no one else ever do this unless you are really poor or really masochistic! It is an adventure in learning, but that's all. Gouger makers have special tools that will do a much better job.
Needless to say, the resulting gouge over the years is nowhere near the quality you'd expect from a vendor: I still managed to make reeds that my teacher, some performance majors at the master's level and young professionals envied.
We can talk ad-nauseam about a perfect circle or one oval being better than another, but I think I like the advice of someone, somewhere up-there in the thread: find something that does a decent job and leave it at that. Use binding, shaping and scraping to compensate for what we might THINK is a gouging issue.... we could well be wrong!
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-04-04 00:00
Robin:
Say you had to buy one, which would you choose ? What are your considerations, besides price ? This doesnt neccessarily mean the most expensive is the best.
From my readings, is there a need to get a matching pre-gouger or can you use the pre-gouger that you already have, meaning of another make and brand ?
BTW, what kind of radius gauge have you got ? From your pdf looks like you got a Starrett the kind that machinists use.
How about micrometers ? At the minimum, does one only need a dial micrometer to do the the side-center-side measurements ? Or is there a need to measure other things on the machine, then the dial micrometer is of not much use. Then what measuring instruments would one need ?
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-04-04 00:11
Hautbois Francais:
No, No, NO! oboecane.com is misinformed. Never a larger blade diameter than Bed diameter!
Take 2 quarters or other round, identical objects, stack them on top of each other then slip the top one a few centimeters or so up and see the resulting shape between the two. It's a crescent.
A size on size at 10.5 - 11mm single radius gouge gives you the approx 45 - 60 - 45 classical dimensions.
For a double radius gouge you need a smaller blade so you can displace it sideways as well without obliterating the sidewall dimension.
For more on this, let's go to the single/double radius thread...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-04-04 00:19
Huboboe:
Thx for the "misinformation catch".
You said a size of 10.5-11mm single radius, are you talking about a bed size ?
On a 11mm bed and 10.5mm blade, what diameter tube cane should you use and will that yield a THINNER or THICKER side ?
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-04-04 06:23
Hautbois Francais:
I did say 10.5 - 11mm, but I forgot you aren't a mind reader. I was referring to size on size: 10.5 on 10.5 or 11 on 11 will give you, depending on the width of your shape, a 45 sidewall (or close to it) for a 60 center.
Cane is never perfect of course, but I assume the bed diameter matches the cane diameter.
If you gouge single radius, 11mm cane, 10.5mm blade at .50 in the center, you will have a cylindrical section at .50 - .50 - .50. I put in the decimals we usually leave out to keep it all in mm)If you gouge a bit thicker at .60 in the center you will still have narrower sides than center, but not as narrow as .45.
I don't have CAD software to be exact, but tomorrow for fun I'll draw it at 10X scale with a compass and measure the result...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-04-04 14:45
Huboboe:
Then, I will wait anxiously for your drawings. Forgive me as I am really trying to understand this:
You said that the 11mm bed (or cane) and 10.5mm blade, do u mean if I want the center at 0.5 then i will get a perfect 5-5-5 (leaving out the decimal to save on typing) cylinder ? If I want the center at 0.6mm then my center would be thicker than 0.45mm, eg 48-60-48, is this correct ?
How about having 11mm bed (or cane) and 11mm blade, what happens then ?
All tube cane come in a range, do you mean if I have a 10-10.5 tube cane I wont be able to fit it in a 11mm bed ? Even I have a 10.5-11 tube cane on a 11mm bed, it will either fit snugly on the bed or not. Is this correct ?
Does it mean when u pre-gouge, the bed needs to also fit the tube cane snug ?Meaning, u cant put a 10-10.5 tube cane on a 11mm bed on the re-gouge ?
Post Edited (2011-04-04 14:48)
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Author: mjfoboe
Date: 2011-04-04 15:36
If the cane is too narrow or to wide - you will not get the proper gouge.
I tried gouging some very narrow cane diameter 9.5 or less. The proportions were off and the cane useless. The same goes for cane that is wider than 11mm.
The machines are set up with a range of 10 - 11mm. I find that 10.5 is just right. For example, if a person wants to work with narrow cane he/she most probably will need a separate set up.
Mark
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-04-04 23:51
mjfoboe (Mark):
Is your Ross gouger bed set at 11mm and blade at 11mm ?
I gather you are using a tube cane between 10.5-11 rather than 10-10.5 ? So, which kind do you buy ? Or both tubes will work, as long as they are between 10-11mm ?
On your Ross, did any accessories come with it ? Like the hexblade screwdriver, brush etc. RDG adds on a bunch of stuff. Now, I am wondering if westwind includes the neccessary accessories for maintenance.
BTW, on another matter, what kind of pre-gouger do you use ?
Thx for the info and input.
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-04-05 05:56
Hautbois Francais: Apologies for promises not kept. I'll try to post a drawing tomorrow, but it might be Wednesday.
Sorry.
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-04-05 16:30
So, at this point, after all the discussions, if I were to buy a gouging machine from anywhere in the world, huboboe's machine is the one I'd get without any hesitation.
All my measuring equipment is Mitutoyo, but that doesn't matter: international standards are supposed to keep the big names in line. What to look for in a radius gage is that it gives you an arc of at least 45 degrees. Look at the pictures in the PDF of my blog, you'll understand.
Again, the PDF of my blog shows 2 kind of "dial-micrometers" (in reality, they are just comparators mounted on a base with different standard pins). I think you only need the vertical, in-line version, not the perpendicular version. A caliper is very useful, but not imperative.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-04-07 00:05
Robin:
Westwind gouger,would you care to share why you'd buy it without hesitation if you need to replace your gouger ? What do u like about it or not like ?
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-04-07 00:21
I lean to the Westwind because they have apparently answered my concerns for ease of use and adjustment.
The only thing I'm fearful about the Westwind is that it does have a number of removable parts --- without seeing, I could worry that there is a risk of decalibration.
BUT:
I think I read that Robert is an engineer, if not, he certainly communicates like one and he has convinced me of the integrity of his work.
What I do like is:
* replaceable beds for oboe, d'amore and E.H.
* mechanism to remove and replace the blade with minimal loss of calibration (if any)
* the height adjustment does not depend on a double-wedge
* simple construction to facilitate calibration yet capable of customization
* single or double radius gouging as desired.
I'm also sure that Robert would sell me 2-3 blades with different grind angles. On request.
The only other one that comes close is Forrest Music's own because of the fewer parts, but I have yet to be convinced of ease of adjustment and blade removal.... Westwind has a clear upper hand.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-04-07 02:52
Robin:
Is there a need to switch back and forth to single radius and double ? As you said, "single or double radius gouging as desired."
What would be the advantage, if you already make good reeds with your double radius, why would you want to do single radius ?
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Author: RobinDesHautbois
Date: 2011-04-07 10:22
Quite right on that question.
The answer would be "none". When you've found a setup that works for you, keep it.
Unless you love to experiment or if you're selling or if you found that 2 or 3 setups work and produce different results that you like for different repertoires etc. But this is conjecture.
I'm just impressed that his mechanism supports this feature.
Robin Tropper
M.A.Sc., B.Mus., B.Ed.
http://RobinDesHautbois.blogspot.ca/music
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-04-08 04:24
Robin: To allay your fears of components 'decalibrating', all the parts except the guillotine are located on dowel pins, so you could take the entire machine apart and reassemble it without losing registration. All the precision relationships are accomplished at the manufacturing level. After assembly, the only adjustments to be made are those that affect the gouge dimensions.
More after the weekend - I'm going to my mother's 96th birthday party tomorrow thru Sunday...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-04-08 11:37
Huboboe:
Single radius and Double radius feature. Is this something that one can change oneself ? Is it a worrisome to change it out, how about re-calibration etc. ?
I am wondering, if someone is already used to double radius, and making consistent good reeds, then why would one want to go to single radius and potentially fooling around with a new animal or completely re-learning a new process of doing things, esp if one has never used a single radius. Maybe not an issue, to convert to single radius way of doing things, I dont know, so I need to hear from an expert in these things.
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-04-08 17:59
Hautbois Francais: If you are gouging single radius and liking it I can see no reason to change except the maxim that the grass is always greener...
I'm not an expert. I've always been a single radius guy, but since a lot of players swear by double radius gouging (@#*&#!! GOUGER!) - actually, when I designed the gouger, one feature was the ability to move the blade to adjust the sidewall thickness, and that lends itself to the double radius offset.
To gouge single radius you set the blade ass'y (blade and guides) on the centerline.
To gouge double radius you need to swap the blade ass'y for one with a smaller radius and gouge at some offset distance from the center line. (How much smaller/how far offset - see the Single/Double radius Gouging thread. I've been trying to get the double radius guys to give me some idea.)
The possible results are increased a lot, and the ability to adapt your gouge to the cane is increased in either mode.
Adjustments are .02mm/turn of the adjusting screw, so you can make a change in seconds and return to the original in seconds if you aren't happy with it.
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: Oboe Craig
Date: 2011-04-08 20:31
Robert,
Given all the info on the need for asymmetrical blades for double-radious-gouges (to avoid pulling/tearing the cane loose, etc...), have you considered adding an offset blade design option to your setup? Or would you? I am single-radius these days, but having the extra control on the same machine would seem desirable.
Cause misery loves company and I don;t see why we should not be cursing your model like we do the others...:)
-Craig
Post Edited (2011-04-08 20:31)
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-04-08 22:24
Craig: As built, the blade lives indexed against the back wall of the guide block, with the center of the blade radius centered on the center line of the guide radius. (Is that enough centers?) To be asymmetric one could shim the blade with a bit of cigarette paper, or I could join the ranks of curse-able machines and install a couple of fine pitch setscrews in the back wall to land the blade against. That would probably produce a blue streak or two...
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-04-08 22:35
Huboboe:
You must have internet access at your mother's. Hope she had a great 96 Bday celebration.
Back to gougers. Does the setup in double radius have to be precise to achieve the desired results ? Offset from center line ?
Would u say your machine has already been set up and optmized for single and now in process of adding a new feature with the double ? In your specs that you expect to ship, we would expect a single radius set up ? if we want to add on you would include the double radius setup, which involves buying extra blades (and whatever else needed ??) at some extra costs ? Or your machine will come with both single and double and blades included ?
I like the fact that one can take care of the cane sidewall if one chooses at the onset, rather than trying to thin down the sides by scraping. For the single, you take what you get.
Thx for the great inputs as we all try to understand your new machine.
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2011-04-10 05:43
Bob,
Are you sure you meant 0.02 mm per turn? That would be 50 turns == 1 mm offset.
The Stickler,
J.
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-04-12 22:34
Mr. Stickler: Yes, I meant .02mm/turn. The mechanism has a total range of 40 turns or .8mm, designed originally to accommodate the range of cane thickness worldwide described in Ledet's book ' Oboe Reed Styles'.
Used to adjust sidewall thickness it is easily possible to crash the edges of the cane stops, but the adjustment is so slow that one would have to be careless to do so...
The known .02mm adjustment makes it easy to try something new and to return to your known starting place in moments rather than hours
H.F.: The machine can be set up to your specs, but is essentially the same machine in any flavor. The adjustments work identically side to side and up and down. The difference between single and double radius gouging would be the user's choice of bed/blade&guide radius, since the adjustment will accommodate more than any necessary side to side change.
I am assuming (and hoping this BB will provide enough input for me to be more assertive in my beliefs) that a single radius machine will have size on size bed and blade/guide sets, whereas the double radius will have a smaller blade/guide radius which can be offset without stepping on the sidewall dimension.
I haven't spent time describing the other adjustments, but for the sake of completeness, here they are: the blade is indexed against the back wall and on an adjustable pin whose function is to accommodate blade wear as the blade changes length with sharpening, rather than to set gouge thickness or chip thickness. You would not expect to change that adjustment until you had sharpened the blade a number of times.
The front guide is adjustable so as to expose more or less of the blade to the cane, thereby giving a thicker or thinner chip thickness without changing the final location of the blade (which determines the gouge thickness). That way you can take more of your softer cane and less of your harder cane get the cleanest chip possible.
Both of these adjustments are .25mm/turn, relatively crude compared to the fine adjustments, but
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-04-12 22:39
Well, I finished the thought in my mind, anyway:
...suited to their purpose.
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-04-12 23:25
Huboboe:
Say for example, I want to go from a single radius to a double radius using your machine, that would mean first of all to get a smaller blade. Seems like it wouldnt be rocket science to do a blade change, but as far as adjustments, what would it take to have the machine ready to go ? Are there some trial and error runs that one needs to do to get it up to, at the very least to the ideal 45-60-45 cut and properly centered ?
I am just trying to understand the operational aspects of your nice dream machine. If the machine is too flexible in terms of adjustments, then there would be too many knobs to fool around to get it to work the way u want and lots of trial and error runs.
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Author: huboboe
Date: 2011-04-13 05:14
H.F. - First, the blade and guides (IMHO) need to be the same radius. If you put a smaller radius blade into your guides, only the nose would cut on the first pass. then the edges would prevent further cutting. If you put a larger radius blade into the guides, it would make a cut such that the rear guide would no longer be in contact with the cane. I think of the blade and rear guide as if it were a horizontal shaft, with the nose of the shaft angled and sharpened to scoop out the interior of the cane and ride upon the cut surface. (The front guide adjusts as described above).
There are only four 'knobs to fool with': two for set up and two for gouge adjustment. Gather 'round, chillins'...
For set up, with the blade off, adjust the front guide so that it is flush with the rear guide. (I lay a yellow pencil along the guides.) Then mount the blade and adjust it so that it just cuts the paint on the pencil. This makes the blade and rear guide resemble the sharpened shaft described above.
Now raising the front guide slightly will increase the chip thickness. As you gouge you can optimize your chip stroke by stroke.
You are ready to gouge. Drag the carriage slowly backwards through the bed in the fully down position to be sure the blade clears the cane stops.
With a single radius gouge, gouge one piece to completion without turning it. Measure the gouge thickness at the bottom of the cut. Adjust as necessary to get your desired thickness. Measure the sides. Adjust as necessary to center the blade. Gouge another piece of cane. Tweak your thickness and sidewall adjustments to optimize your gouge. Turn your cane end for end to insure symmetry.
For a double radius, do everything as above, but adjust your sidewall thickness to your desired dimension on the thin side of the gouge. When you turn your cane end for end you will get the same sidewall on the 'thick' side.
To arrive at 45-60-45 with a single radius, size on size cane radius and blade radius should result in those dimensions, or something close to it. (11mm on 11mm, 10.5 on 10.5, etc.) For a double radius, you will need to play with a couple of pieces of cane until you find the sidewall that compliments the center thickness.
And I (once again) assume the 'gouge thickness' of a double radius gouge refers to the thinnest part of the center gouge, not the central spine. Though I will hazard a guess that, with the additional mass of the 'spine', the 'center gouge' can be a tad thinner than .60. We'll find out by doing.
Lastly, the guides are mounted on the carriage with dowel pins and the distance from the dowel pins to the bottom of the rear guide is constant, so swapping blade/guide guide assemblies from single to double radius and back should make very little if any difference to the gouge thickness. BUT - swapping from double to single radius will require some attention because the double radius blade is offset, and the larger, single radius blade might crash the edge of the cane stop on the 'thin' side! So use care and center the carriage first with the double radius blade. Then finish gouging that piece with the single radius blade and all will be well.
When you sharpen the blade by honing the flat side, you will shorten it by only .6 of the amount removed from the flat by sharpening. This means that, until you have sharpened the blade several times, all you will need to do is remove, hone and replace the blade without touching the other adjustments and you will be gouging the same dimensions. As the blade becomes shorter, a tiny tweak om the mounting pin adjustment will compensate and a single trial piece will allow you to regain your chosen dimensions.
I went to my local plastic store and bought a series of colored circles (is that 'coloured' in Canada, Robin?) at 1 inch to the mm. I bought enough circles to photograph 11 0n 11, 10.5 0n 10.5, 10 on 10 as well as 9.5 and 9 doubled on 11, 10.5 and 10. I'll start a new thread with photos of these tomorrow and we can see if anyone has further contributions to the ongoing question: what's a good blade radius and offset to pair with a given cane diameter?
Robert Hubbard
WestwindDoubleReed.com
1-888-579-6020
bob@westwinddoublereed.com
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-04-13 05:36
Huboboe:
Thx so much for the detailed descriptions. However, it will sure help if we had a picture to look at, labeling the parts you mentioned eg the guides, the 4 knobs etc.
Then what you have written will come to instant light without too much effort to decifer or to imagine what your machine looks like. Most of us, I am sure have not seen your machine.
I have enclosed a sample picture of a Ferrillo machine, which I took out of someone's thesis, some labeling of the parts you mentioned will help a heck of a lot, short of a live demo at your place !
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Author: oboereed1109
Date: 2011-04-14 13:35
I've owned an RDG machine since the early 80's. I bought it on Lou Rosenblatt's recommendation. He said I would pay more money for it, but I wouldn't regret spending the extra money. I've never owned a Graf machine, so I can't compare it. But, I will say that it is very consistent. It is an excellent machine!
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Author: hautbois francais
Date: 2011-04-15 00:00
Oboereed1109:
I've been waiting a while to have someone contribute about the RDG or Gilbert machine.
Besides being consistent, is there something that you NOT like about it. Someone on this thread, said something about the guillotine on board being too close to the gouger or not fitting longer cane or something like that. Might have been Cooper that said it.
Do u have a 11/11 mm bed/blade machine, or is your custom ?What are you gouged side-center-side dimensions ? What diameter cane do you use ?
Maintenance ? How often do you have to sharpen the blade ? Or how often do u have to buy a new blade ? I noticed that RDG has replaceable blades. Problem with alignment and centering ?Do you have the machine going of center ? After how many runs on the machine before it needs to be aligned ?
Would appreciate if you could share your valuable experience with the RDG.
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The Clarinet Pages
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![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif)
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