 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-01-07 11:49
Considering this only has the one theme (it's more of a 'Leitmotiv' than an actual piece), would you improvise or add far more ornamentation to the main theme when it comes around for the second (final) time as you'd normally do on genuine Baroque adagios?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Ehafb
Date: 2009-01-07 13:50
I love this piece. Rather than change the ornimentation both time the thme comes in I play it with more dynamic range the 2nd time
Bryan
Bryan
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-01-07 14:12
I heard it earlier and thought of the various trills, mordents, turns, note runs and suspensions that could be added once the theme had already been established.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: hautbois
Date: 2009-01-07 21:06
Hi Chris -- I think that additional ornamentation could be considered acceptable if considered a jazz improv. on a theme. Those who like the work 'just the way it is' might be less offended if they consider your tweaking it a jazz excursion. For myself, I mightm e.g., just give more stress to the first note in the turn when playing it the second time around, et sim. more nuanced tweaking of the written notes, including dynamics and intensity.
Elizabeth
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-01-07 21:52
I'm letting my imagination get the better of me again!
I always hear something and think 'why don't they do [something or other] there instead of just playing it straight?'
My oboe teacher always encouraged me to ornament Baroque pieces as I felt like (mainly on repeats or DS/DC), so old habits die hard. Probably as I hadn't played an instrument suitable for Baroque music for so long (even though I love Baroque music as it's raw), I felt I had a lot of catching up to do. Classical music is too refined for my likings (although I did study clarinet), but I do love the Romantic era as that's throwing everything in and making a good noise with it. But what I like most of all about Baroque was the 'blank canvas' aspect where the printed music serves as a guide - ornamentation added at the player's discretion.
So as Gabriel's Oboe is a neo-Baroque (or Baroque-esque?) theme, I thought 'why not?'
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-01-16 19:30)
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-01-07 22:03
I haven't seen the movie in a few years, and I know it's a modern oboe in the soundtrack, but doesn't Jeremy Irons play it on a baroque oboe in The Mission?
Anyway, Chris, I agree: why not? I don't recall ever hearing it played with additional ornamentation, but maybe that just means such a rendition is long overdue!
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2009-01-09 04:03
I always felt so bad for the Jeremy Irons character (in The Mission) when they smashed his oboe...made the piece all the more poignant.
GoodWinds
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2009-01-09 06:14
<<I always hear something and think 'why don't they do [something or other] there instead of just playing it straight?'>>
i find this piece most challenging to play, it's so simple and yet it demands so much technical excellence and subtle emotional content to make it really come alive when played straight up, the soaring at the end ... well, i love this piece too, it would matter to me that it 'sounds right' and i suspect that might be the expectation of your audience as it's well known ...
IMO technically interesting ornamentatal twinklings wouldn't be a good substitute for emotive and soulful content in this particular piece, but if you can technically & expressively put your version all together, and your reed of the moment allows you to do it thataway, it could be wonderful -- as long as it isn't a paying audience, otherwise, oops ...
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2009-01-10 13:08
I say go for it.
It's not necessarily a Bad Thing to have any audience, even a paying one, shaken out of their lethargy by hearing a performance of an old warhorse that is different from what they've come to expect as canonical. If your paying audience really only wanted you to repeat verbatim the version that they're most familiar with, then they'd have stayed home and listened to it on CD. What they want is to be energized, surprised, woken up; it won't kill them to hear a slightly different version from what's on the CD. It's not a pop concert where they wanna sing along with the star's Top 40 hits and they'll go home disappointed if they aren't allowed to do that.
If you feel like there ought to be ornamentation in there, then go for it. Expand both your and our musical horizons.
I'd be interested in hearing what it sounds like. Can you film it and post it on Youtube?
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-01-10 13:57
Dutchy wrote:
> I say go for it.
>
> It's not necessarily a Bad Thing to have any audience, even a
> paying one, shaken out of their lethargy by hearing a
> performance of an old warhorse that is different from what
> they've come to expect as canonical. If your paying audience
> really only wanted you to repeat verbatim the version that
> they're most familiar with, then they'd have stayed home and
> listened to it on CD. What they want is to be energized,
> surprised, woken up; it won't kill them to hear a slightly
> different version from what's on the CD. It's not a pop
> concert where they wanna sing along with the star's Top 40 hits
> and they'll go home disappointed if they aren't allowed to do
> that.
>
> If you feel like there ought to be ornamentation in there, then
> go for it. Expand both your and our musical horizons.
>
> I'd be interested in hearing what it sounds like. Can you film
> it and post it on Youtube?
Well said!
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2009-01-11 19:37
... don't get me wrong, i'm definitely not against the idea, just think it would have to be very well done, everyone is inspired in different ways to express themselves musically
as examples of 'soul in it' - just reviewed Romano's solo for 2007 UN Convention, and Kwak's performance also on youtube -- both were very well done, both had soul in it, although personally, eyes closed, my limbic brain automatically responded more to Romano's
while one is focused on delivering ornamentations, playing energy for the piece is being directed into glitz and bling rather than emotive content, unless one is really skilled or well practiced at putting it all together, and hey yes, by all means, go for all of that, definitely expand musical horizons
<<as long as it isn't a paying audience, otherwise, oops ...>>
comment intended to remind us of copyright issues, composer's still alive
and also, going public domain with twinkling Variations on youtube could become an issue there -- but difficult to challenge, no doubt
when all's said and done, this is somebody's else's copyright composition, not one's own to rework any way one likes just because it's so wonderfully inspiring; as i've already said before, just trying to play it straight up and also be inspiring is technically hard enough to achieve (well, that's from my playing skills perspective, obviously more advanced players would see it as a piece of cake)
Sarah Brightman had to go through hoops to get the song Nella Fantasia OK'd -- both are gorgeously inspiring, but the music wasn't her own composition to put the words to it, so she respected copyright
let me say it again
<<IMO technically interesting ornamentatal twinklings **wouldn't be a good substitute for emotive and soulful content in this particular piece **>>
emphasis on 'substitute' and 'this particular piece'
read the youtube comments, what moves people like this?
The composition itself, yes, and the musicians are putting soul into it as well, so that's what's carrying over to the audience and that's what the audience wants to feel
it's not possible to canonize emotional-devotional-spiritual feeling content
-- one can play the melody twice with technical excellence and different expression, and vary it with ornamentations, all of which can be stylistically canonized in the future, but if the other 'intangible' content is missing ... dutchy already said it <<What they want is to be energized ... >>
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-01-11 19:58
I don't know when I'll next play this at a dinner or another function (probably not for a while yet), but I'll try to make a recording of it and somehow upload it when I do.
There's a concert band version but I've only ever done the wind 5tet version.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2009-01-11 19:59)
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2009-01-12 06:41
There's a Wind Quintet version? Cool!
I have played a variation posted here a while ago with a string quartet - it was beautiful (the arrangement, that is). A few days before our performance I caught the film "The Mission" on the box, and watched it all the way through. The theme changed subtly throughout the movie, with different soloists and different accompaniments.
IMHO, if you are playing the piece in its normal configuration (i.e., playing the theme through twice, with a cadence at the end) there is little need for ornamentation. There is plenty to be done with color, intensity and dynamic variation without the need for ornamentation. The audience will not be as familiar with the theme as we are, and the repetition serves primarily to reinforce the beauty of the theme in the ears of the audience.
2 ag.
J.
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2009-01-12 17:21
Well, addressing the issue of potential copyright infringement...in jazz, it's expected that the performer will embellish and improvise, and nobody gets upset that the composer's copyright was infringed--you don't expect Duke Ellington to be performed every single time just as he wrote it, you expect the performer to make himself free with it, artistically speaking.
And in pop music--which, let's face it, this piece is--every performer who covers a song always adds his own "take" on it. You can line up virtually any two covers of any pop standard from the last 80 years or so, and hear two different songs. Frank Sinatra and Bing Crosby, all those other "crooners", always added notes here and there in the course of their interpretation, and nobody pointed their fingers at any copyright infringement. Rosemary Clooney, people like that, you sit there with the sheet music, following along, and they're singing notes that aren't there.
Also, as regards posting it on Youtube, I believe the "fair use" guidelines cover it. There's a handy Fair Use checklist here. I believe it's covered under "Research" and "Scholarship" ("What would this piece sound like with ornamentation?") and "Transformative or productive use (changes the work for new utility)", and under "User owns lawfully acquired or purchased copy of original work" and "No significant effect on the market or potential market for copyrighted work", "No similar product marketed by the copyright holder", and "Lack of licensing mechanism".
Really, I'd like to see him do it. And posting it on Youtube is the most sensible, accessible way for us to hear it. There are all kinds of mashups of music posted on Youtube, most of them in even more flagrant copyright violation than something like this. It's not taking the bread out of the mouth of Morricone; it's not profiting from it. It's actually using his work to explore musically, which I think is perfectly fine, on a level of those people who record music scored for one instrument with a different one--Purcell's Trumpet Voluntary, anyone? 
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-01-12 17:32
Dutchy wrote:
> Well, addressing the issue of potential copyright
> infringement...in jazz, it's expected that the performer will
> embellish and improvise, and nobody gets upset that the
> composer's copyright was infringed--you don't expect Duke
> Ellington to be performed every single time just as he wrote
> it, you expect the performer to make himself free with
> it, artistically speaking
In most cases there isn't infringement because the establishment pays a royaly fee to ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, et al. to cover the "covers".
Posting a whole piece on Youtube is most certainly a copyright infringement; Youtube is an experiment in determining the broad outlines of infringement and penalties.
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-01-12 17:53
Dutchy wrote:
>And in pop music--which, let's face it, this piece is--every
>performer who covers a song always adds his own "take"
>on it. You can line up virtually any two covers of any pop
>standard from the last 80 years or so, and hear two different
>songs. Frank Sinatra and Bing Crosby, all those other
>"crooners", always added notes here and there in the
>course of their interpretation, and nobody pointed their
>fingers at any copyright infringement. Rosemary Clooney,
>people like that, you sit there with the sheet music, following
>along, and they're singing notes that aren't there.
Ah, yes... but pop crooners are true artists, whereas we classical musicians are mindless automatons sworn to faithfully realize the intentions of the composer.
(note facetiousness)
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-01-12 18:08
Mark Charette wrote:
>In most cases there isn't infringement because the establishment
>pays a royaly fee to ASCAP, BMI, SESAC, et al. to cover the "covers".
>Posting a whole piece on Youtube is most certainly a copyright
>infringement; Youtube is an experiment in determining the broad
>outlines of infringement and penalties.
But, just to clarify, the infringement would be the result of the unlicensed performance (or, in this case, recording and online distribution), not the addition of ornaments.
Has a composer ever sued a performer for copyright infringement by over-embellishment? I'm no lawyer, and my knowledge of copyright law is certainly incomplete, but I'm not aware of any such cases. Anyone else know?
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-01-12 18:14
oboedrew wrote:
> Has a composer ever sued a performer for copyright infringement
> by over-embellishment?
Embellishments would just be a derivative work
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2009-01-12 18:52
Quote:
Posting a whole piece on Youtube is most certainly a copyright infringement;
Then there are an awful lot of people out there infringing: a search for "gabriel oboe" turns up tons of people posting versions of it, both commercial clips (including but not limited to the JamesThePenguin clip which has 1,385,818 views by now) and folks in their living rooms playing it into their webcams, or in a recital hall.
And not all on oboe, either: Trumpet.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-01-12 19:21
Dutchy wrote:
> Quote:
Posting a whole piece on Youtube is most certainly a
> copyright infringement;
>
> Then there are an awful lot of people out there infringing:
Yes, there are a lot of people infringing. Your point? That quantity makes it right? That quantity makes it less likely to be caught? Or that composers have no rights? Or that those rights are stupid anyway?
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2009-01-12 23:58
My point, as I said earlier, is that I believe the "Fair Use" guidelines cover this, that he's within his rights to experiment musically with this.
And he could also comply with the Fair Use guidelines even further by posting only a portion of the work, not the complete work, as is outlined in the guidelines. Even a few measures, ornamented, would suffice to give some idea of what it would sound like.
Post Edited (2009-01-13 00:01)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-01-13 01:19
Dutchy wrote:
> My point, as I said earlier, is that I believe the "Fair Use"
> guidelines cover this, that he's within his rights to
> experiment musically with this.
In private, of course.
> And he could also comply with the Fair Use guidelines even
> further by posting only a portion of the work, not the complete
> work, as is outlined in the guidelines.
Certainly, if US law applies and it's within the guidelines. A performance outside of an academic setting is always suspect, though.
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2009-01-14 18:53
But if the performance was done gratis, no money asked of the audience, or at home with no audience, would it be infringement? As I understand it, the payments to ASCAP et al are to cover monies earned by playing the pieces. If no monies were earned, is it infringement?
As a composer, I'm interested. I'd be delighted if someone would post a performance of one of my pieces on youtube, because it might increase sales of the sheet music, assuming it was properly credited. If it weren't properly credited, I'd have a problem with it, and frankly I have no idea what my publisher would think. (No, it's not oboe music; it's brass music.)
MA
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-01-14 19:04
EaubeauHorn wrote:
> But if the performance was done gratis, no money asked of the
> audience,
Yes, It would be a public performance, and copyright would be violated. Whether or not damages would be collectible would depend ...
> or at home with no audience, would it be
> infringement?
No.
> As I understand it, the payments to ASCAP et al
> are to cover monies earned by playing the pieces. If no monies
> were earned, is it infringement?
Yes.
> As a composer, I'm interested. I'd be delighted if someone
> would post a performance of one of my pieces on youtube,
> because it might increase sales of the sheet music, assuming it
> was properly credited. If it weren't properly credited, I'd
> have a problem with it, and frankly I have no idea what my
> publisher would think. (No, it's not oboe music; it's brass
> music.)
You own the work - you can essentially authorize anyone to do anything with it. If you don't go after anyone (and make a history of knowing but not telling people they need permission) and then someone makes a fortune off of your music, you might have a hard time going after the person for compensation. A simple system like telling people they need your permission for a public performance or that they're not allowed to record and rebroadcast for money might have some bearing in court if you sue for damages.
You may have already made an arrangement woth your publisher precluding free and/or public performances, depeneding on what you signed in a contract. In the case where your rights have been assigned, the publisher might have a right to go after you for both violation of the contract and damages due to non-sales.
It always depends ...
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2009-01-16 17:07
Interesting. One needs to either have a lawyer or be a lawyer for this copyright stuff.
What about performances that were recorded in a public venue before I assigned the copyright to the current publisher? Can the current copyright holder prevent dissemination of the previous recording?
MA
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2009-01-16 17:26
EaubeauHorn wrote:
> What about performances that were recorded in a public venue
> before I assigned the copyright to the current publisher? Can
> the current copyright holder prevent dissemination of the
> previous recording?
It depends ... which is why you and the publisher need that lawyer to review all your contracts! There are sometimes nasty - or pleasant! - surprises.
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Author: canuckduck
Date: 2009-03-09 00:48
Last time i performed this piece (with a concert band), i did indeed treat it like a baroque piece, but with taste. Listeners seemed to think it was beautiful, so I'd say it worked just fine.
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Author: Ebclarinet1
Date: 2009-03-12 19:55
I've done this piece on d'amore, transposing the oboe part up a minor third, and IMHO it was much better, more Baroque sounding and the notes that needed emphasis were ones better on d'amore. Give it a try.
Eefer guy
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-03-13 00:05
I like the sound of that!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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