 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: A_person13
Date: 2009-02-23 01:30
Seeing as I'm on the hunt again for a consistent oboe reed,I'm wondering what some of your favorite oboe reeds are to get some ideas.After leaving the oboe for a year or so,I came back to finding my favorite Marlin Lesher reeds to be quite horrible.(One reed was a tone flat,the other reed blew out after one note.Of course it probably is just one of those bad ones in a bunch,but oh well.)
So now I'm in need of a consistent oboe reed provider that won't take too much out of my parent's wallet.And I did try the bigger websites such as wwbw or musiciansfriend,but their reeds all seem to be sold out(except the Gower one,which apparently is a bit too much for my parents.)
So what are your favorite oboe reeds(or just some reeds that you find consistent?)
(Btw,is the Gower reed worth the 21 dollars?)
And no,I have no idea how to make or fix oboe reeds.
Oh yeah,what is the difference between French,American,and German style reeds?
Post Edited (2009-02-23 01:58)
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2009-02-23 03:05
You should get a LOT of answers to this... and they may not all agree!
Even if you buy reeds from ANY source, do find a competent player/teacher to show you how to 'adjust' them to your own playing.
I would recommend a professional reed-maker who offers a return policy; but (as one of them has written), if you have definite preferences about the scrapte, hardness, timber, etc, LET THEM KNOW at the time you order.
A well-made reed can last longer than a 'quickie', so find someone who takes pride in their work.
As to the scrape styles (French, German, American), I will let a more competent reed-maker than myself tackle that one. We all have our preferences: learn what YOURS are before you pay over $20 for a reed.
warmly, with good wishes in your search,
mary
GoodWinds
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2009-02-23 04:00
I'll let someone who's more knowledgeable about it go into the technical details of the differences between reed scrapes, but all you need to know is that you probably want to avoid anything billed as "French" or "German" (this includes the Chartier "traditional" reeds on WWBW.) You want to look for anything billed as "American scrape" because that is, most likely, what you're used to, if what you were playing on previously was Lesher reeds.
Bunch of stuff before we get started on this sort of thing:
1. Bear in mind that none of these are going to be cheap; good-quality handmade reeds are just going to cost between $12 and $20 a pop, not including shipping, and there's nothing you can do about it. Your parental unit will just have to bite the bullet and get used to the idea. ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
BTW, at one point when I was getting started 4 years ago, Gower reeds were the perfect reed for me, but at the time they were only $12, so they've gone up quite a bit. And no, IMO the Gower is not worth the $20 (plus $5 shipping, remember). They are what I would call "adequate" reeds, but they are still factory, mass-produced reeds, and for the same $25 you can get a really good handmade reed.
2. These sorts of lists are terribly, terribly subjective. Since everybody's embouchure, experience, talents, and expectations are different, and since the reeds themselves can vary, even reeds by the same reedmaker in the same batch, any kind of "these reeds are great!" recommendation has to be taken with a grain of salt.
3. Your embouchure changes over time, and reeds that work well for you at this stage of your development may not work for you at the next stage of your development. And vice versa...
4. ...reeds that you order, that don't work for you when you receive them, much to your disappointment, may work for you in 6 months. Put them away carefully, and get them out again in 6 months and try them again. And thus, I would not give up on those Lesher reeds; put them away, and get them out again next fall. IMPORTANT: do not tinker with them, with a reed knife or an Exacto knife or whatever, hoping to improve them. Trust me, it's not the reed, it's your embouchure. I have ruined more what were in retrospect perfectly good reeds through ill-advised tinkering because I blamed the reed, not the embouchure. If you order a reed from a well-recommended, established reedmaker, and it doesn't work for you, don't blame the reed, blame your embouchure. And put the reed away for 6 months, and come back to it later.
A large part of the challenge of finding a personal reedmaker is finding someone whose reeds that they make to make themselves happy also make you happy.
That said...My personal list of reeds that I use, and have used, and that work(ed) well for me. Which means, remember, that these are people whose reeds that work well for them, also work well for me. There are other really good reedmakers out there, and I have tried their reeds, and they don't work well for me, but it's important to remember that that's not because there's something wrong with the reeds--it's just that their reeds don't happen to work well for me and my embouchure. It's a bit like going down to the Salvation Army and trying on pairs of used shoes; the trick is to find a pair that's broken in that feels comfortable on *your* feet.
Fox.
Goodtoneguild (she has an excellent "Rookie" reed for beginners, too)
Tabbytoes.
Cooper Wright (of this board)
Dunkel.
Reedery.
Evans.
Edmund Nielsen (very fast shipping and a wide variety of reeds to suit every need--their Black and Red beginner reeds are good if you're on a tight budget).
Singing Dog.
These reeds all vary widely from each other: a Singing Dog reed is distinctively different from a Goodtoneguild reed, which is startlingly different from a CJ Wright reed, which is completely unlike a Tabbytoes reed. Et cetera.
So, when you're starting out, you need to order one, or at the most two, reeds from each reedmaker, in order to figure out which ones are "your" sound. Some are bright ("shrill"), some are dark (more clarinet-like), and they will all sound different. They will all sound like oboes, but they will be extremely different from each other. So you're in for a period of experimentation.
If you absolutely have to let your pocketbook be your guide, and you need reeds right away, then I would definitely go with the Fox reeds from WWBW. The Standard reeds are a dollar cheaper, and for your purposes work just as well. The Artist reeds are a bit more refined.
If WWBW is sold out of the Fox (which happens), the Selmer brand reed is "adequate", meaning it plays in tune and doesn't sound too harsh.
You can check out reedreviews but again, remember to take the "love this!"/"hate this!" reviews with a grain of salt. It's mainly useful to look for a consensus--if a lot of people all say "love this!" or "hate this!" about a particular reedmaker, then you know where you stand.
ETA: My advice on not tinkering with a reed is directed towards someone, i.e. you who admits he knows nothing about adjusting reeds, and was not intended to mean a teacher or professional who may know how to adjust a reed.
ETA: Then there's the thorny issue of strength. One reedmaker's "Medium" may be another reedmaker's "Medium Soft", and the only way to find out is to order one and try it. All my ill-advised tinkering and ruination of reeds was done on reeds that in retrospect were simply too hard for me. A reed that is too hard, you will not be able to lip up to pitch, it will be hard to blow, and it will strike you overall as flat and stuffy. So if you receive a reed from a reputable, established reedmaker that is disappointingly flat and stuffy--it's not a dud reed, it's just too hard for you. Order a degree softer next time. And put the flat, stuffy one away, because chances are good that in a year it'll be fine.
Post Edited (2009-02-23 04:14)
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2009-02-23 04:05
I would echo Dutchy's suggestion of reedreviews.net . When you go to that website, just look for consistency in what people are saying, and consistently in what people are voting (there's always going to be the rave review, and the dumpster review).
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Author: carrielj
Date: 2009-02-23 14:28
I get my reeds from Goodtoneguild.com. Meg is very consistant with the reeds and she does have a good return policy but you probably won't need to use it. If you order in quantities of 5 or 10 the price just gets better.
After trying many hand made reeds, Meg is the top of the list, I won't order from anyone else.
Carrie
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Author: Vallemar2
Date: 2009-02-25 22:39
the reedmaker; just incredible reeds and incredible service; Kerry sends personal emails and the reeds are great right out of the box; my oboe and I love them
I was using Gower but they can't touch the reedmaker.
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2009-02-26 15:39
locally store-bought reeds
... i'm finding bill roscoe reeds fairly suitable as supplemental reeds just now, they're nice warm tone, mediums just the right amount of resistance for me at the moment ... but the high register from high C up has to be really encouraged to speak, they falter on decrescendos (although could be me reducing air pressure too much) -- and quite a lot of apertures are closed up less than optimum opening in the box -- i prefer to see some gape in brand new reed apertures, i can lip them down myself, there's no guarantee that soaking them will actually open them up, although some certainly do
the goodtone guild reeds we get locally here are all wired and it's a lot of extra fuss to remove -- or tape over -- the wires, and also, can't inspect the apertures and tips due to the way they're hidden in the fluff at the bottom of the sealed packaging tubes, however the few i've tried when nothing else available at the time i was shopping have been OK
for newbies and early beginners, emerald reeds are pretty good and economically priced, although short-lived and tend to collapse sooner rather than later, which means more turn-over -- which is OK for the first 6-8 months or so while working up from soft to medium
pity jones no longer do reeds, they were OK in early to moderate beginners transitional period, although marked tendency to be flat, mini tip clips sometimes helped, sometimes not; perhaps there are still a few hiding out in old stock somewhere in some stores
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2009-02-26 16:43
RE: removing the Goodtoneguild wires. You don't have to remove them--just slide them further down towards the staple, which stops them from acting upon the reed itself, since they're just encircling the staple. I scoot wires up and down all the time.
And if you're removing them only because of the look, sliding them down gives you a bit more leeway to get in there with the corner of a fingernail clippers and snip the wire.
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Author: johnt
Date: 2009-02-26 18:16
I've never been able to understand why Meg puts wires on her reeds. Tom Stacy doesn't even do it with his EH reeds. If the reed is tied properly, straight up & properly oriented congruently to the x/y axes of the staple oval with complete closing of the reed on both sides one turn before crossover at the top of staple , then the reed should be fine, with no leaks. Of course all this presupposes that the cane has been properly gouged & shaped. To me, the wire is just an added bother in a process already fraught with the requirement for painstaking attention to detail. My 2¢
What say ye, Cooper?
Best,
john
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2009-02-26 20:28
People who put wire on EH reeds do so to change the acoustical nodes on the reed in order to make the high notes sit up better. If someone uses wire to pinch the openings up more, then the wire is already too tight to function in this capacity, and works counteractive. I have heard both Tom Stacy and most recently Carolyn Hove speak negatively about wire on English Horn reeds, specifically because they see people using it to squeeze open the sides. If someone is having EH reed opening problems, then there is either something wrong with the gouge or something wrong with the scrape. (most often the latter).
Mr. Weber instructs to add wire 4-6mm above the string, just barely touching the sides but not squeezing them.
Having said that, one would assume that wire would be added to oboe reeds for same function (as is the case with short scrape reeds). Meg's reeds are a completely different design than my own, and I imagine her air/wind/embouchure is also very different from my own. She obviously finds this necessary but only she would know why. However oboe reeds should not need wire for the opening.
Last note: The reason why EH reeds need extra support in the high register is the extra width of the reed, and the amount necessary to be take out of the back.
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Author: Bobo
Date: 2009-02-26 20:48
Pedro Diaz at the Met doesn't use wire either:
Quote:
Regarding wire on an EH reed: I don’t use wire, for too many reasons. Would you use wire on your oboe reeds? I don't oppose the use of wire, however and once in a while I will use it.
http://www.pedrordiaz.com/english_horn_tips_
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2009-02-27 04:18
I understand from a more elderly professional that wire can be a great asset to EH reeds -- if one knows how to use it.
GoodWinds
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Author: sylvangale
Date: 2009-02-27 04:52
I think goodtone guild offers a pretty good bang for your buck when you buy in bulk. The reeds are pretty consistant and the wire, if you choose the wired reeds, can be slid down or twisted off.
Edmund Nielson reeds are also another inexpensive reed option if you can only buy in small number.
There was a time when Meg of goodtone only offered wired reeds, but she started to offer non-wired out of peer pressure <g>. I think she picked up the wiring of reeds from when she went on to study and perform in Europe (bio). The purpose of the wire seems to be for longevity of the reed, as the reed closes with age you can just pull the wire up. The alternative would be pliers or a new reed.
Goodtone reeds are in the focused/dark category of reeds, which so many are.
I prefer reeds with a touch of that farting bedpost charm and a dash of sweet velvet.
Though my flatulent source of reeds shall remain a secret. 
♫ Stephen K.
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Author: A_person13
Date: 2009-02-27 08:11
I always feel so humbled by the responses on these boards.They all sound so experienced.But anyway,out of impulse,I decided to buy some French type reeds out of impulse from ebay.According to the maker,it shouldn't affect playability,but I don't know who to believe really.
I've had an interesting experience with the reeds,where I usually get a lemon in a pack,but oh well,it works in a pinch.
It looks like Goodtoneguild has many recommendations,and I was actually looking into them.I'll definitely try those out especially if they have a darker sound.
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2009-02-27 12:59
Not to rain on your parade or anything, but...Frequently, "french-type" is code on eBay for "European scrape". If you've been playing on American scrape, you may find them horribly shrill and difficult to control. The seller's promise/disclaimer that their being "french-type" "shouldn't affect playability" means nothing more than "you'll be able to get a sound out of it." Which you will, it just might not be a sound that you'll want to repeat. [evil grin]
Just sayin'.
I would definitely go with either goodtoneguild or Edmund Nielsen.
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Author: Vallemar2
Date: 2009-02-27 14:56
I find the good tone guild reeds stuffy and resistant; hoping they will break in but I only got the medium soft (#3) and was surprised how much harder I had to blow than with comparable medium softs.
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2009-02-27 16:09
Yeah, me too. Try moving the wire down; that's what I do sometimes. Just scoot it down towards the staple. The wire adds resistance and actually raises the strength about a degree, so your Medium Soft with a wire is actually working as a Medium. Slide the wire down.
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Author: Vallemar2
Date: 2009-02-28 12:38
Thanks Dutchy; I bought five of them so was hoping to get them to work!
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Author: A_person13
Date: 2009-02-28 20:46
aw gosh...I was excited for some new oboe reeds.Oh well,I'll know when I get them.
And thank you for mentioning Edmund Nielsen.I remember seeing his site,but couldn't remember the name.
And thanks to everyone else who answered too.On a somewhat related note,is it plausible to learn reedmaking by yourself without any experience with whittling?
Sorry for the ebay link btw.
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2009-03-01 02:00
Scraping bamboo for oboe reeds is a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TECHNIQUE than wittling (whittling?). So that experience is unnecessary.
However, if you want to become a capable reed-maker (or even adjuster), study with a good teacher. You can look at films or read books, but nothing beats having a professional there who can adjust your technique or offer explanations.
GoodWinds
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2009-03-01 03:54
If the eBay reeds turn out to be duds, don't throw them away--put them in the Junk Box and hang onto them. Later on in your oboe career, you may get good at adjusting reeds, and then you can haul them out and tinker with them, and you may actually get a useable reed out of it.
We all have a collection of dud reeds that don't work for us. Some of us have bigger collections than others; I went through a period of eBay reed experimentation myself (she said ruefully).
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2009-03-02 08:14
two things
1. anybody can learn anything they want and become an expert at something, all by themselves, if they apply themselves to it -- remember that american style reed-making was originally invented by a guy called Tabuteau who could think for himself using his experience of *different* reed-making techniques which he *transferred & adapted* until he was able to make a new style of reed with the tone qualities he wanted
-- but, the learning or experimental curve is always full of trial & error, and there's much wastage of expensive and dwindling natural resources (oboe cane)
-- today, a reed-teacher is any student's fast-track, very helpful
-- but not absolutely essential IF the student is already very handy with knife-crafting other small things in wood, these are transferable fine motor skills
2. Reedmaking 101
Pre-requisite -- demonstrated ability in gross & fine motor skills using knives
(an example of fine motor skills -- whittling)
it's unwise and unsafe to assume that today's pampered and over-protected kids are competant in knife skills of any kind -- for example, who needs to bother learning basic kitchen knife skills to prep raw food from scratch when conveniently packaged individual meal portions of all kinds are so readily available?
oboe (or French horn or tuba ...) embouchures aren't built in a day
neither are fine motor knife skills
reed-making demands refined knife skills
and it doesn't magically happen overnight
so why waste oboe cane on knife klutzes?
build their basic knife skills first on something cheaper and more readily available
do that before entering reed-making class
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-03-02 15:36
As GoodWinds has already observed, whittling and reedmaking are entirely different skills. Experience in the former is not transferable to the latter. The tools and techniques are different. In fact, I have had students whose prior experience whittling proved detrimental to early reedmaking efforts. Because the skills superficially seem related, the whittler sometimes has difficulty accepting that he must unlearn much of what he thinks he knows in order to begin making progress as a reedmaker.
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2009-03-02 18:22
I've never supervised a child learning to make reeds, but I do crafts on Wednesday nights with a big group of church kids, from ages 4 through 6th grade (that's 11 years old), and my experience is that you can ordinarily expect kids from about age 9 to have an adult's mastery of fine-finger control and hand-eye coordination (depending on the kid's attention span, of course, a rowdy 9-year-old will not be as good at patiently assembling a craft as a quiet 9-year-old).
Now, I apply this to things like using scalloped-edge scrapbooking scissors and fancy holepunchers, painting small crafts with acrylic paints, and stringing beads, but it seems like the hand-eye coordination skills would be similar for reedmaking.
So I'd think that a kid (or adult) who was motivated enough to sit there and pay attention to exactly how the process was achieved and to copy the teacher precisely would be a success at reedmaking, whether he had prior whittling skills or not, the same way it's the kids who pay attention to my demonstration of the craft ("glue *this* to *this*, then punch *this* out...") that have the most success.
Post Edited (2009-03-02 18:23)
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2009-03-03 00:29
I don't know about all this whittling/reedmaking and such, but I'd say it certainly helped me. I whittled/carved soap for close to 7 or 8 years before I began reedmaking, and I would say it helped my knife technique.
One of my current students is a surgeon, and he has excellant knife technique. I would GUESS that his experience with a scalpel has taught him something.
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-03-03 01:30
cjwright wrote:
> One of my current students is a surgeon, and he has excellant
> knife technique. I would GUESS that his experience with a
> scalpel has taught him something.
In such cases, I think it's important that we not confuse correlation with causation. The surgeon does not scrape with his scalpel, and few parts of the human body have a consistency like cane. Therefor, it is unlikely his skill with a scalpel directly contributed to his technique with a reed knife. A more plausible explanation is that his reedmaking technique and his surgical skill both stem from certain natural aptitudes, such as dextrous hands and an analytic mind. Skilled visual artists and video gamers have had similar success as reedmakers.
The idea that whittling uniquely prepares one for reedmaking is a myth in need of debunking. It can be a hinderance to aspiring reedmakers with backgrounds in whittling, who must learn to sharpen and wield their knives somewhat differently. Perhaps more importantly, it can be discouraging for the larger group of aspiring reedmakers who have been led to believe their lack of a whittling background puts them at some disadvantage.
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2009-03-03 18:05
LOL it's silly season again, is this cabin fever, SADD or what ???
... whittling certainly isn't the only way one can develop fine motor skills with a knife, whoever got the mistaken impression it was? {:-o
It's just AN EXAMPLE
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-03-03 19:45
vboboe wrote:
> LOL it's silly season again, is this cabin fever, SADD or what
> ???
>
> ... whittling certainly isn't the only way one can develop fine
> motor skills with a knife, whoever got the mistaken impression
> it was? {:-o
>
> It's just AN EXAMPLE
There is nothing silly about this topic. Perhaps you don't teach? To those of us who routinely teach beginning reedmaking, this is a reasonable concern. Too often students are afraid to start reedmaking because they've visited forums such as this and read careless statements such as "Pre-requisite -- demonstrated ability in gross & fine motor skills using knives."
Nowadays, young oboists' views are often shaped by online resources for several years before they begin private lessons. The suggestion that all knife skills are roughly equivalent and that experience with any sort of blade prepares one for reedmaking is not helpful to teachers.
Knives most often cut. Reedmakers scrape. The motion of the blade is fundamentally different. The method of sharpening is fundamentally different. Even the goal is fundamentally different. When whittling, the goal is to make an object LOOK a certain way. But the looks of a reed are of secondary importance. And we're talking distant second here. The goal is to make the reed vibrate a certain way.
Whittling does no more than painting to prepare one for reedmaking. Psychologically, a squeamish or timid student may benefit from having handled a blade in the past. But we must not confuse this psychological edge with skill.
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-03-03 19:59
By the way, if anyone following this thread is wondering why the reedmaker sharpens and wields his knife differently from the whittler, carver, or woodworker, or if anyone would just like some further reading on the topic, there's an excellent little booklet called "Reed Knife Sharpening" from the makers of Landwell knives. It's under fifty pages, costs about ten bucks, and is an excellent overview of the topic.
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
Post Edited (2009-03-03 20:01)
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2009-03-03 22:13
It's perhaps unfortunate that the word "whittling" is universally used when journalists and other writers are describing an oboist making a reed.
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2009-03-03 23:49
I disagree with Drew on the topic of the benefits/consequences of whittling.
Granted, not all "whittling" hobbies are the same. And there is something to be said about the differences between "whittling" and "carving".
As a young boy, I did both whittling and carving in that order. I began whittling things out of sticks and wood, and later moved to carving more intricate things, usually with soap or some other material. I would say carving soap gave me a good concept of physics (even 10 years before I ever took physics in high school) of the angle of the blade, the concepts of friction, shaving of layers, and using the burr of the knife. (Later when I went to learn about such forces in physics, it just confused me however.)
In any case, if you've ever carved soap, used exacto knives or other razor sharp blades to make small models or objects, I believe the experience with sharp blades against surfaces does give you information relevant to scraping, and further helps you to understand differences in the fibrous texture of cane.
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2009-03-04 01:33
I too did a bit of carving as a child: only with wood, never with soap. If carving soap involves more of a scraping motion, then we may be at least within the same chapter, though not quite on the same page.
But I think we must be cautious when basing pedagogical precepts on anecdotal evidence. Hence my earlier remarks about confusing correlation with causation. A quick analogy below, and then I must get back to my own reedmaking!
I played the clarinet for a year before picking up the oboe. I could claim that my prior experience with the clarinet helped me with oboe fingerings. But I also played the violin and the piano, and I played a lot of video games, and I learned to type, and so on and so forth. There's not much reason to give credit to the clarinet, except that it bears a superficial resemblance to the oboe. Yet for that reason alone, many well-intentioned music educators make the mistake of requiring a year or two on the clarinet before switching students to the oboe. It's the same sort of logical fallacy that leads to the equation of whittling with reedmaking.
Anyway, looks like we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I must pull myself away from this wonderful debate and knock out a couple more reeds before bed.
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2009-03-07 00:10
I didn't mean to open up such a can of worms!!
Crafts are as individual as musicianship, so forgive me for starting a row over whittling! I have great respect for woodcarvers, I knew a great one in Africa. As to whether or not he could make oboe reeds would depend a LOT on his interest in learning new things.
Some of us are good at that; others prefer the Familiar.
happy reed-making out there.
GoodWinds
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