 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: Marshal
Date: 2009-02-08 05:26
I've heard many different things about staples. Some say they have a big impact on the sound, some say silver is the only way to go...... so what exactly do they do for the reed? Are there complimentary staples that might work better with some instruments and not others? Do some give a more "American" sound? Are some staples more flexible than others? Do some effect pitch, response, etc.? Do you have a specific staple that you like with your instrument?
Post Edited (2009-02-08 05:27)
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2009-02-08 07:06
"Some say they have a big impact on the sound."
To some degree, yes. Silver, gold, and brass all have different tonal properties. In general:
-Silver are the brightest, most brilliant sounding.
-Brass are more mellow than silver.
-Gold are the mellowest sounding
These new corkless staples also have a really different tonal properties, but for the sake of simplicity, I'll stick with regular corked staples.
Another thing which can have an effect on the tone of the reed is the thickness of the staple wall. Some staples have thicker walls, while others have thinner. Thinner are a bit more brilliant sounding, and generally can have more complexity in the sound. However, thicker walled staples are a bit more forgiving of less-than-perfectly-scraped reeds.
"Are there complimentary staples that might work better with some instruments and not others?"
Definitely! Think of the bore of an oboe. For example, Loree has AK, regular, and DM, while Marigaux has the regular, 2001, and the new one with the funny topjoints. They all have different bore shapes, and the inside of the staple is just an extension of that. Finding which staple works best for which oboe is critical, and can make a huge difference in the tuning of certain notes, such as middle C, high A, and middle E.
Two other variables that really must be matched with a staple is the shape and the gouge, both which need to complimentary to each other, and then complimentary to the staple. The inside of the gouge is an extension of the staple, which is an extension of the bore of the oboe. The shape determines how much of the gouge is exposed and at what points.
"Do some give a more 'American' sound?
I'm not sure about this, but I doubt it. It's more about the scrape, and the embouchure formation.
"Are some staples more flexible than others?"
If you mean "unstable" when you say "flexible", then yes, some staples are more flexible while others are more stable, but again, this depends on mixing and matching staples to instruments.
I currently own a Hiniker oboe, and a Howarth XL. The Hiniker is very much like an AK Loree, except better and more even, so for the sake of comparison, what works on my Hiniker would work on most Lorees. In fact, the reeds I make for sale are playtested on my Hiniker.
The staples I like to make commercial reeds on are:
1. Weber Staples
2. Stevens Plain #2 Brass
These two seem like good bore dimensions, and have not to thin of a wall to make me scrape the world's most perfect scrape in order to get a reed just right, but have enough finesse to make it worth while.
Also, for my Hiniker, I sometimes use Chudnow Silver or Stevens Pro #2, which have a slightly thinner wall, and make me really scrape a darn good reed. When I scrape perfectly, the reed is better than a perfectly scraped reed on another staple. But when it's less than 95% perfect, it doesn't turn out well enough to keep, so I don't work with these staples as much.
Cooper Wright
cooperwrightreeds.com
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
Post Edited (2009-02-08 07:09)
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Author: Marshal
Date: 2009-02-09 01:36
Can you recommend any for an old Loree B series and brand new Loree AK (Just bought it in November.) I've noticed some staples will work better with the old one and not the new one and vice versa. My old teacher used to give me his reeds made on glotin staples and they seemed to work well together, but for some reason, I like the reeds I make on rigotti staples for the new AK.
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2009-02-09 06:24
I have taken my caliper to the inner-diameter of the round end of my staples and noticed a significant difference of more than a millimeter between different brands. I also measured the inner diameter of the hole at the bottom of the reed-well of my Loree C model, and noticed it to be significantly smaller than the diameter of the staples.
I don't have my measurements to hand (I'm in the office, not at home right now) so I don't remember the difference - but there is a significant step. SO on to the question:
If I had staples whose inner diameter exactly matched the bottom of the reed-well, would this sound cleaner? Somehow, I think it would! Where can I get staples like this?
J.
================================================
SAFE AND NON-DAMAGING Instructions for measuring the diameter of the hole at the bottom of the reed-well:
Take any long, round, cone-shaped piece of wood (such as a tapered chopstick) and insert into the reed-well until it stops on the inner ledge. Mark the chopstick level with the top of the reed-well (e.g., make a pencil mark or a small nick with a razor-blade).
Now insert the chopstick GENTLY into the hole in the reed-well floor until it stops. Make a second mark.
Set your caliper to the distance from the first mark to the tip of the chopstick. Subtract this distance from the second mark, and make a third mark on your chopstick - this is where the chopstick stopped inside the hole. Measure the diameter of the chopstick at this point and you have the exact diameter of the hole.
J.
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Author: hautbois
Date: 2009-02-09 14:04
Just as you sense the advantage of a staple with a bottom diameter which conforms to the top of the bore of your oboe, I have always felt that the performance of the reed was better if the top of the staple was very thin, and created the minimum of ledges which could obstruct the flow of the air. That is one of the advantages of the Stephens Pro 2 staple for me == that it has a thin wall. And on other brands of staples (I used mostly the Chudnow CA staples) I have actually chamfered the top of the staple a little to diminish the ledge. Going further yet, I have also champhered the reed end of bocals, and have been pleased with the results. (There is actually a tool for this, though I cannot recalll where I got it a few decades ago.) My sense is that the sound becomes much more liquid and flowing.
Elizabeth
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2009-02-09 14:20
Old Loree B series - Weber staple. Cover a bit more than thinner-walled staples.
AK Loree - Chudnow staple. Helps with the sagging low Cs, and sharper middle Es.
Regarding matching your staple opening with your reed well opening, I don't think this necessarily has positive effects. If you look down a Loree (and many oboes today) from the bell up, you'll see that the size of the diameter of the top joint is quite smaller than the size of the top of the topjoint. In fact, one of the critical features of the de Lancie model Loree was the difference in size between the two joints. Similarly, there is often a difference in size between the bottom of the staple and the opening of the reed well, which plays into the entire acoustical scheme of the oboe. Talk to Alvin Swiney more about all of this as he knows all when it comes to acoustics.
Tom Stacy commonly does the champhering of every bocal he gets his hands on. My feeling, as stated before, is that if you've got a very good, consistent, clean scrape, it's generally better to go with the thinner walled stuff. And I fully agree, there's something more liquidy, almost chocolaty that comes out of a thin walled staple that can't be reproduced on a thicker walled staple.
Cooper
cooperwrightreeds.com
Edit:
Two afterthoughts. Rigotti staples tend to be a hair flatter in the upper register. This could be due to the narrower shape of them. (Just take note so you know the tendancies of your current staple!)
If you're curious about playing with your staples a bit, try cutting a very small piece of electrical tape, (maybe 1mm wide, 10-15mm long depending on how far you want to go up) and insert it into the bottom of your staple. This will change the rate of taper in your staple, and will sometimes reveal insights into acoustical properties of the staple and further effects down in your oboe.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
Post Edited (2009-02-09 14:51)
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Author: johnt
Date: 2009-02-09 16:42
Cooper et al.,
Yes, I've seen Tom & Mark Chudnow do this with EH bocals & oboe staples (chamfer). He/Mark also "straighten" EH bocals slightly with the bocal fully inserted into the ferule of the top tube, maintaining that the air flow tends then to have less of an ell to circumvent, thereby enhancing the sound. The bocal still has a slight crook in it.
Comments, Chris P.?
Best,
john
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2009-02-10 10:40
Cooper, hi,
Thanks for the tip about inserting electrical tape - although I think I'll look for something a little less sticky and elastic. Perhaps one of these re-usable page tags you can buy in office-supply retailers.
On my standard-bore 3 year-old Loree (QI 23), the bore-diameter of the bottom of the top joint tenon and the bore at the top of the middle joint well match exactly, to within .05 mm according to my vernier caliper. I'm very surprised that your oboe is not the same! I have never heard of an oboe where a step was introduced deliberately at that point.
The bore diameter at the joint of my oboe is exactly 10.00 mm.
Elizabeth, thanks for the info. There was a case where I had a new staple with a tiny ridge or flare at the very tip, which caused my cane to split on tie-on (wasted two pieces before I cottoned on). I filed the edge down and tied on again, and the resulting reed was actually beautiful. I never made the connection with the thinner tip edge, however. It is a simple thing to do, so I'm going to experiment more!
I'm running out of different color thread, so it is hard to keep track of all my reed experiments as they work slowly through my bull-pen. Come to think of it, I think I saw a photo of Coopers reeds marked with a dot of coloured nail-varnish. Good way of keeping track.
J.
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Author: Bobo
Date: 2009-02-10 13:59
Cooper,
I use an AK model Loree and am mostly using AK nickel staples on the theory that someone at Loree must have done some work to match one to the other. My understanding is that the bore dimensions of the AK staple are conically continuous or at least matched in some way with the bore of the top joint. Do you know anything about this? Also, which Chudnow staple do you recommend? I ordered one regular Loree staple just to compare and was amazed at how small the opening was, much smaller than any other staples I've ever used. I was amazed by that. I tend to like thin walled staples but the AKs are not so thin, they do have a kind of rounded oval shape that is less rectangular if you will than many other staples I've used and I find that that makes it harder to center the cane on the staple and maintain its position when tying. I've had good experiences with Pisoni and Glotin staples as well.
Post Edited (2009-02-10 16:08)
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Author: PlatinumPisces
Date: 2009-02-12 08:17
This question scares me...
Eh, I say its all an illusion and its in your mind half the time. I mean, I use the chudnow corkless staples. I recently switched from the silver ones to the bronze ones. My theory is that the bronze ones would work better since the density of the metal (yes dork moment) is less than that of silver. Although its not an order of magnitude or anything, but in such a small plane of error (the staple) it makes a bigger difference I assume of course.
I just think its all in our minds TO AN EXTENT. I know that my DM staples wont work on another oboe (ive tried), yet I have to significantly "re do" my scrape on the DM staples... I got tired of that and stopped using them.
My old oboe teacher was a reed making master. She used regular old Steven's #2 tubes (i think) and scraped them for an AK oboe. She tried it on my instrument and she loved it better on there than my oboe after a few more scrapes. Who knows, I think you have to scrape not only for your oboe but for your staple.
I can leave more on the heart on the corkless ones I have found out. (Alot of people tank these staples or say degrading things to me, I have no problem telling them to go eat s*!t, I dont take that, haha). On the regular staples, i have to lighten up the heart a bit. Its all a fun game of try this, and try that. I think that many people have THEIR own certain way to scrape which in turn when THEY find a staple that THEY think its amazing its because THAT staple fits THEIR scrape and ultimately their instrument.
Im done.
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Author: oboemoboe
Date: 2009-02-12 16:09
" (...) and the new one with the funny topjoints"
It's called the M2. (I've tried one! While it feels like the complete opposite of my Royal, I must admit I quite liked it, and could easily and quickly get used to it! Does anyone on this BBoard own one? Any comments?)
Cheers!
O
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2009-02-12 17:02
Yeah, I played it at the IDRS convention. I think it's so different that my Made-For-A-Loree reeds just didn't work well in it.
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2009-02-18 07:39
So how many times can one 'recycle' a staple????
I think some of mine came from the last century.
GoodWinds
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2009-02-18 17:46
... i find two things bother me most about recycled staples, we're talking standard brass here
1. the tarnish & corrosion that happens inside the tube as it's used and ages, in the past what i've done is pull a long rolled narrow strip of fine emery back and forth through the tube until it looks shiny & clean in there -- but of course that makes finely grained shiny surface inside the tube, instead of a bumpy corroded surface before emery, and that corroded surface was originally a shiny & smooth surface so the sanded surface isn't as good as new anymore -- any other suggestions?
2. the cork gets so dark and dirty-looking, it's euw gross! again, the thing i do is use cotton-bud with isopropanol to clean it and then regrease the cork which is very dehydrated from the isopropanol cleaning; but after a few times of doing that with the minimum isopropanol possible to do the job, the cleaner eventually dissolves the glue, so it's not saving staples in the long run, once dry or unglued cork chunks off the bottom end, staple's no use anymore
so it seems inevitable must replace about 10-12 new staples every year ...
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