 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: myoboe
Date: 2009-01-13 15:22
I have experienced over and over again cane cracking when I am tying it onto a staple. It seems to happen often with cane that is wider at that end closer to the staple, but not with narrow cane. (I use gouged, shaped, and folded cane) The cracks go right down the middle starting from the staple end. The cane has been soaked for a long time, often more than a day. What can possibly be the cause ?
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2009-01-13 18:20
You are oversoaking, if your cane is being soaked for a whole day. Once the water saturates the outer bark it will almost always crack. You want it pliable but not saturated.
I thin the narrow ends of my shaped cane before tying from the inside and this seems to help a little. Or it could simply be this batch of cane. check out this previous thread:
http://www.woodwind.org/oboe/BBoard/read.html?f=10&i=11816&t=11764
Soak your gouged and shaped cane in tepid water for ~ 30 minutes only, and try again?
J.
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Author: lbarton
Date: 2009-01-13 22:52
Thin the last 1/4 inch of cane gradually tapering from top to bottom, top still bark, and bottom very thin. This can be done using knife or a coarse emery board laid flat at edge of desk. Thin one blade of cane at time by holding the cane unfolded slightly. You can vary the pressure on the cane with your fingertip and quickly get a gradual thinning toward the very bottom end. Tiny cracks, as long as they don't go up into the part not covered by the thread binding, don't matter much.
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Author: JRJINSA
Date: 2009-01-14 03:48
I used to have the same problem. I was able to resolve it 99% of the time by tying the cane onto the staple using a different routine. I'm not sure of the routine you're using but what fixed this problem for me was this:
Start winding the thread around the cane approximately 2 mm below the end of the staple. Continue winding your way *up* the reed until you get to the end of the staple (mark the end with a pencil beforehand as you won't be able to see the end of the staple behind the closed reed), then cross over, then wind back down towards the cork and tie it once and for all.
Some reed books tell you to start right at the end of the staple and wind down to the cork crossing over after a few winds. This works too but tends to cause the cracking you describe, at least for me it does. So, working your way up and then back down may do just the trick. I'm glad I know this trick because it eliminates a lot of frustration.
Good luck to you.
Jay
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2009-01-14 08:10
... there's another possibility ... you've unfortunately got a bad batch of junky pieces
... but more than a day is 'way too long for pre-soaking ready-to-use cane pieces, so correct that first
... on other hand, haven't found half-hour enough in my cool temperate coastal climate location, 2.5 to 4 hrs hrs works OK
here's how i can tell when cane is fit to be tied, so keep checking every hour
1. cane has sunk by itself, or if supported by other pieces, sink readily when container firmly tapped or gently shaken; if sink reluctantly, not ready
2. air bubbles gone off cane surfaces
3. colour is moderately brownish yellow (wet enough) rather than dark yellowish brown (soggy)
4. out of water, cane looks waxy and semi-translucent, "watery"
5. gentle fingertip pressure to test flexibility, fold closes easily without a fuss, arches are bouncy and sides spread out together, and pop up again when released (over-soaked cane doesn't spread with light pressure, too bloated, so can't bounce or pop back)
... yes, taper the ends, can also use freshly sharpened wedge knife
... yes, start winding from below 47mm, 2mm a bit short for me, i'm finding midway works OK, starting there seems to encourage the bottom half to shape around the broader part of tube while working the cane upwards gradually on the narrower part of tube
main feature of this tying method, just gotta love the cross-over look :-}
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2009-01-14 18:36
A different solution from the desert. We microwave the cane (in water to cover, vertically placed in a small thin jar) for 45 seconds prior to tieing on. We also shave the ends down to a taper.
MA
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2009-01-25 20:10
Also, take your sweet time when tying the cane onto the staple. Give it time to bend.
GoodWinds
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Author: sylvangale
Date: 2009-01-25 22:05
I wondered if microwaving was safe.
My teacher's method is to boil water, turn off heat, then drop cane in. The cane would drop to the bottom by the time we walked up a flight of stairs with the small pot.
I tried to boil water in the microwave and drop the reed in a cup soon after, but they just don't sink like when you use a pot. Maybe I'll give it another try and turn the microwave back on and see how long it take for reeds to drop.
♫ Stephen K.
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Author: myoboe
Date: 2009-01-26 11:42
Thankyou all for your kind advice, learning a lot through this BBoard. I only soaked for a bit over 7 hours in my last tying, the trouble is I am not always free to tie it when it is ready :-( I used to use a spoon to force the cane down to the bottom of the container so it is fully immersed for an even soaking, now I know to check for the sinking :-)
In my last tying, I took greater care in tapering the ends and made sure I thin more towards the ends. I ended up having 50% success rate (1 out of 2 cane), but the failure was not due to cracking this time (only a small crack for one cane), but the problem is air leaking ! It appeared that the sides of the cane were closed at the staple, i.e. 47mm from the bottom, but then further up about halfway to the top, the sides were not closed tightly enough, maybe the cane is not shaped properly so that it bends at the wrong place ?
Just wonder for those who purchase "gouged, shaped and folded" cane and are doing every step right, what your success rate is with those cane ?
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2009-01-26 18:07
<<the trouble is I am not always free to tie it when it is ready ... >>
Ah, there's the root of your over-soaking problem
Schedule your 'tie-on cane' session in a time slot you're free to commit to this task, then put cane to soak just early enough to be ready by then
Another thing i find helps earlier sinking is using extra-fine emery to smooth the insides of the dry cane first, this removes the roughness that permit a large colony of air bubbles to cling as long as they possibly can, very smooth surface releases air bubbles faster -- of course, be very careful not to break the fold while sanding
<<Just wonder for those who purchase "gouged, shaped and folded" cane and are doing every step right, what your success rate is with those cane>>
I can make nearly every one of them tie OK now, and that's with Glotin GSF, but can't say for other brands
anyway, to begin with i couldn't get them to close up the sides consistently when retraining my rusty skills, so ham-fistedness may be part of the problem yet for you, equals you're not yet doing every step quite right if they're not closing, or you've got junky irregular cane pieces, although i doubt that
just double-checking to be absolutely certain here -- you are tying on the cane piece before cutting the fold? You're not trying to tie two pieces on separately?
OK, if you free your mind of rigid rules of procedural rightness and focus instead on achieving the objective by adjusting this and that a tad to get the desired result, you'll find the cane ties on very nicely and sides close too
however, the one important guideline is to tie the cane parallel on the 'flat' sides of the tube's slightly elliptical shape, but as the thread wrap tends to push the cane off that plane, there needs to be a very subtle adjustment in the way you're angling your thumb and forefinger holding the cane in place
against that shift
i find it very helpful to tuck the mandrel against side of belly with forearm, and lay the mandrel & tube on forearm and palm directly in alignment with thumb & forefinger holding the cane firmly in place, it's a bit like a splint, then ever so slightly twist left hand inwards, the opposite direction to the right overhand thread wrap
The other important guideline is to make sure the gaps on each side are equal before attempting to finish the closing wraps to 47mm, if your thumb & forefinger aren't holding the cane firmly enough after initial positioning, they'll go awry as soon as the first wrap and tension is applied
if it really won't close, first try turning the cane over, and if that doesn't do it, then drop cane in hand hot water for 10 seconds, and tube too, and if the mandrel's metal is really cold, heat that up as well, then tie quickly before all cool off, wam cane reshapes better even if fibres are previously warped out of alignment by awkward first attempt at tying
if you had a real struggle to close the sides, after finished with tying and it looks good at last, debark the fold both sides from 70mm up, and then wrap some tape firmly around thread to mid cane section before completely drying and setting the blank for 2-3 days, then remove the tape (some people use wire instead, but it always nips the cane and leaves dents)
the tape acts like a restrictive bandage forcing the sides to remain shut even if the cane wants to spring apart while drying
debarking the fold reduces tension and helps the cane's arc flatten out (which could lead to being too closed later, but training the sides to stay together after having trouble getting them to close during tying takes priority at this stage, reshaping the reed to be more open can be done later)
of course the tube itself must be a regular ellipse, if it's warped slightly out of shape, that will make tying on more challenging
hope some of these tips help work things out better for you
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2009-01-26 22:11
A couple of pointers:
1. Before you tie, make sure your staple is PERFECT - no edges sticking out, or flared ends! If you have either of these problems, your cane is guaranteed to crack. You can take a fine file to the extreme edge if it looks too sharp, but very carefully. Smooth, don't remove metal.
2. 7 hours is about 6 hours too long, IMHO. Over-soaked cane becomes extremely plumped with water and will CRACK when you tie. Been there, done that, and learned an expensive lesson.
3. Take your dry unshaped cane and place on a flat surface, shiny side down. If it arches up in the middle, throw it away. The blades will stand apart and there is no remedy. Don't waste your time.
4. If you close the folded blades with saran wrap, a piece of drinking-straw or similar BEFORE you place it on the staple, you will find that it centers itself quite nicely (wiggle it a little).
5. If you tie your blades at the slightest angle, the convex side will not close properly and will leak. It is the geometry of the staple + the geometry of the blades themselves that provide the tension that keeps the blades closed.
J.
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Author: myoboe
Date: 2009-01-27 14:20
Wow, appreciate the detailed explanation. I agree that I should be more organised with scheduling a time to do the tying.
I do tie on the cane piece before cutting the fold, in fact I only do the tying as my teacher does the rest for me at this stage. I am not really ready to do the scraping bit, the tying is more than enough for me to cope with and I would like to spend more time playing music.
Just wonder how long the tied cane should be left to dry before the scraping. In my case, sometimes it is only after about 20 hours and sometimes a bit over a day that my teacher does the scraping, don't know if that is long enough.
When you say debark the fold both sides from 70mm up, I presume this is done before the fold is cut open which should be done after the drying, can you pls confirm ?
Can I ask where you purchase your Glotin GSF from ? I have noticed on a website, they sell narrow and regular shape Glotin GSF, how do I pick which shape to use ?
Thankyou very much !
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2009-01-27 18:29
<<Just wonder how long the tied cane should be left to dry before the scraping. In my case, sometimes it is only after about 20 hours and sometimes a bit over a day that my teacher does the scraping, don't know if that is long enough>> ** it might be, in your climate**
20 hrs drying time wouldn't dry out or set up my blanks here in my climate zone, i allow 3 days, but it's all relative to temperature & humidity
<<When you say debark the fold both sides from 70mm up, I presume this is done before the fold is cut open **yes** which should be done after the drying **yes, but ... ** can you pls confirm ?>>
i debark the fold right after tying, while the cane is deeply wet, and before drying that new reed blank, and i keep fold intact while drying the blank, i've found this method reduces 'aperture gape' later
** yes but...** i don't ever clip open the fold until i'm cutting a new reed and i've thinned the tip section just enough that the fold fibres begin separating by themselves ... but other reed-makers have other preferences when they like to clip the fold open, always go with what your own reed-teacher likes to do
<<Can I ask where you purchase your Glotin GSF from ? >>
Forrests in California, but that's not a specific recommendation to you, merely informing you of my personal choice, i like the middle column bulk discount options. With volatile Cdn/U$ exchange rates just now, it's always very tricky timing purchase orders to get enough supplies "closer to par" before the next tumble, and still keep my annual international purchases under the ceiling imposed by customs
With your ISP Hong Kong, think you should thoroughly explore your local suppliers, Asian and perhaps Australian sources first, more likely to be economical to you, and while you're learning how to make reeds, economy is topmost priority due to high wastage from learning errors, so student or average quality cane is appropriate choice -- ask your reed-teacher
Have read mixed reviews about Chinese supplies of reed cane, but if you do business only with double reed specialists, they're more likely to be selective of good cane quality
-- in any 10pc batch of standard glotin, there are nearly always some pieces with excess curvature one side compared to the other, or pieces the shaping is off centre, or pieces the sides are 'rippled' -- not completely flat, nonetheless with appropriate tying and cutting techniques, these can all be made successfully into OK student practice reeds, but only if one abandons the rigid notion that a reed isn't acceptable unless it's perfectly perpendicular to the tube -- although the goal is always improvement towards such perfection
<<I have noticed on a website, they sell narrow and regular shape Glotin GSF, how do I pick which shape to use ?>>
Assuming your tubes are standard, just get regular shape for now, unless your own teacher specifically recommends you only use narrow, in which case, ask for reasons why
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Author: myoboe
Date: 2009-01-28 15:10
Thankyou very much for your responses, interesting that you mention "aperture gape". This is the first time I have heard of it and I have just noticed that some of my old finished reeds (which obviously are dried) have very wide openings and the sides have come apart (open down to about one and a half cm), is that what I am seeing "aperture gape" ? Can they still be used, or they should just go into the bin ?
Forrests is also where I am getting my GSF cane from, I have purchased the Hand Select processed cane and the Rigotti regular shape cane. The staples purchased are Forrests/Stevens #1 Oboe Staple, Brass, 47mm which is natural cork. Can you comment on whether this combination of staple and cane is suitable ? The Hand Select cane is narrower than the Rigotti cane and seems to suit my oboe better (mine is a Yamaha YOB841 which according to the specification is optimized to match "American" style reeds.)
As a beginner, I am really overwhelmed by the choices of reed, cane and staples. Don't think it is possible to try them all out.
Forrests sells three types of thread, I have used them all and found that the Tex 138 / 165 yard spool is the strongest. The other two breaks too often when I pull hard during tying, did you have the same problem before ?
In Hong Kong here, only the bigger musical stores sell oboe reeds. However, the trouble is they are out of stock quite often. Sometimes they have stock but not the medium soft type. I bought some medium ones before but could not make even one sound out of it. Even when the stores have medium soft reeds, the quality is not very consistent. I recently bought two (cost about US$11 each), one closed up after about 3 sessions of practice and the other one was flat. There is no brand name on the casing, but the shopkeeper said it was from "UMI", think in the US. The store keeps getting their oboe reed from different suppliers, I had bought from that store reeds from Prestini and Rico before, the storekeeper said those suppliers could not supply them anymore.
Since the HK$ is pegged to the US$, exchange fluctuations do not affect me much.
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2009-01-28 18:03
<<some of my old finished reeds ... have very wide openings ... is that "aperture gape"?>>
Yes, when the two arches form an opening bigger than 2mm, dry, it's 'gaping', but that in itself is not necessarily a bad thing, dry and new, unless it won't flatten out to 'optimum aperture' when moistened, usually the recommendation is to hold and press moist reed along centre line with fingers, but i prefer to do that 'munching into shape' in warm moist mouth (not with teeth! use lips & tongue only)
my theory here is my fingers aren't the same shape as my embouchure and that's where the reed has to be played
<<and the sides have come apart ... open down to about one and a half cm (15mm) ... can they still be used, or they should just go into the bin>>
Depends, these reeds are dry, yes? Well, each reed has its own quirks, some open topsides will work, others will never be satisfactory, use your own judgement on an individual basis for each reed
-- very generally speaking, it's not unusual for the sides to open up and still be OK, particularly with a brand new and young reed that's not yet fully blown in, so don't reject them just for that; and again, they should close readily once moistened and you've applied embouchure pressure
When you've blown in those reeds adequately, more than likely the sides won't open up in drying after that, because the reed is re-shaped to the embouchure you use to play them
you seem perfectly A-OK with the tubes and cane you have, unless your reed-teacher thinks otherwise
all reed threads will snap if pulled too hard, the trick is to use the right amount of tension without overdoing it for the thread being used, stick to the thread that matches comfortable tension for you
If you don't want to waste the spools of that easily snapped thread, you could still use it if you cut off double length, fold over, and pull through beeswax several times to coat & stick both strands together before tying as usual
Reeds, med-soft -- be aware that med-soft will collapse within maybe 10-12 mins of steady playing, so a good solution is to rotate 3 reeds every 5 mins or so (halfway time to imminent collapse)
But as you've explained, just getting enough reeds in the first place is your main challenge :-|
Medium reeds could be dusted down a bit more by your teacher to make them work for you, then they'd be med-soft too :-)
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