 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: CherylS
Date: 2008-11-30 15:26
A few months back I bought a professional model oboe and I am very pleased with the tone I am able to get with it. However I have realized that some notes play off more than I would expect. For example the top space e plays quite sharp and the forked f is sharper than the regular f.
So I guess my question is two parts. 1) Is this normal? 2) Can it be fixed?
Thanks.
Cheryl
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Author: Ian White
Date: 2008-11-30 16:24
1) No
2) Yes
Talk to the store you bought it from - instruments don't always come from the factory well set up even from the best firms. If you bought it used as a private purchase find a good oboe repairer who should be able to sort it.
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Author: Bobo
Date: 2008-11-30 18:01
What kind of oboe is it? Lorees tend to have sharp middle e's but the forked f's tend to be flat if anything.
Post Edited (2008-11-30 18:01)
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2008-11-30 21:52
Every instrument has its own intonation idiosyncrasies. This is true of even the best oboes. The pitch of individual notes can be modified by a skilled technician, to an extent. Still, every oboist has to adapt to the instrument, to compensate for these idiosyncrasies. So yes, what you are describing is perfectly normal, and somewhat inevitable. But so long as the instrument's problems are not severe, it can be modified, or you can adapt, or both.
What kind of oboe did you buy? And what kind did you play before? It is possible that your previous oboe played the E's flat, and that you are in the habit of lipping them up a bit, and that this habitual adjustment is now causing problems with an oboe that has well-placed E's. This is not at all uncommon when one switches from one type of oboe to another. Several times, a change of oboe has made me more aware of the adjustments I was making unconsciously on my previous instrument.
Regarding the forked F, do you play it with or without the Eb key?
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2008-11-30 23:30
... echo both IanWhite & oboedrew comments, it's really a matter of figuring out the actual source of the problem with yet another possibility ... reeds
the used reeds you may have left over from previous oboe weren't blown in on your new instrument, you've lipped them into shape to sound right in the other oboe, so they're not quite right in the new one -- or the reeds you have are too old and blowing sharpish anyway
do a diagnostic with your youngest (in playing time) or completely new reeds, blow them in first, and then see if you're consistently getting sharp E and sharp forked F (echo, don't use Eb with automatic F res)
remember to play with 'neutral' embouchure for the diagnostic, that is, keep embouchure absolutely stable, do not automatically self-adjust, this way you can discover all the other notes you're going to be lipping into tune as well -- some of which might benefit from adjustment screw tweaking
if you still find forked F is too sharp compared to Basic/Left F on new reeds, instrument definitely needs tuning adjustments to bring both ways of playing F as close as possible in sound on that instrument
if you make your own reeds, good, you could maybe fix some reeds you have at the moment to make them work out just now, and after you've had the adjustment screws finely tuned up, cut new reeds and blow them in on that oboe
if you buy reeds, you may have to experiment with other brands of reeds awhile until you find a reliable combination
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Author: CherylS
Date: 2008-12-01 02:34
Thanks for the information provided.
The oboe is a Patricola Evolution in rosewood. It looks great and sounds very, very nice. Before I had this oboe I was learning on a Yamaha 441. The Patricola has a better tone and overall is better in tune.
Regarding reeds I have had the Patricola since July so I'm not using any reeds that old. I have noticed the intonation errors both on reeds I have bought as well as reeds I have made. My teacher also played it with her reed and sees the same error with the same notes.
She said it could possibly be adjusted by a good technician and suggested several names. The one I recognized is Nora Post. However she also said she didn't think I needed to have it checked. But given that I can hear some of the differences I think it best to have it fixed so I don't start learning pitches that are in error. My sense if intonation is not good enough to detect that some notes, like the top space e, are sharp when they are always sharp. But I do hear the difference in my playing between the forked f and the regular f when I use both fingerings.
Drew asked my Yamaha was perhaps flat on the e and I am lipping it up and the answer is I don't know. I am using a tuner to check the tune. And regarding the forked f I have not tried using the e flat key. I'll give that a try and see what difference it makes. Obviously the instrument has a forked f vent.
Thanks again.
Cheryl
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2008-12-01 05:34
Regarding your questions, many oboes are a little unstable in intonation around these notes - you are not alone! First you must rule out poor adjustment as the source of your intonation difficulties.
Please check to see that the small key between index and middle finger RH is fully closing when playing E? Easiest way to check is to finger E with index and 4th fingers, and press upon the small key with your middle finger.
Even if this key is not closing fully the instrument can still seal all the way to the bottom (it closes also with 4th finger RH).
Regarding forked F, one of the screws on the rocker mechanism adjusts the height of the open vent but best to take the instrument to a technician, that's one tricky area to adjust correctly.
On a parallel thread somebody posted a link to an article about Ken Decker's oboe bell, which reputedly improves tone, stability and intonation of these notes in particular. David Weber also sells a "bell adjustment" that does the same, though I think he only deals with Loree standard bore instruments. contact him directly (webreeds.com - look under "Services").
However, the true Nirvana will be achieved when we all succeed in imposing our concept of "E" upon the instrumental world ... stay tuned.
J.
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Author: hautbois
Date: 2008-12-01 16:51
Cheryl -- You may find some relief by making a few adjustments, and, as was advised above, making certain that the pads are covering appropriately. But if this is a new instrument, I would suggest you wait before have any bore or tonehole adjustments made. The wood on a new instrument would still be moving; and, though I don't know where you live for purposes of assessing the climate affecting the instrument, winter, with indoor heating, can have significant affect on the wood. When you have had the instrument a year, then it might be worthwhile to send it to someone like David Weber for adjustment of intonation issues. You may have even more issues by then!
Elizabeth
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2008-12-01 16:54
So I also have a question about intonation; I find that if I "just blow" my very fine oboe is of course not completely in tune, varying by as much as 20 or 25 cents up or down on a pitch, with airflow and embouchure as steady as I can keep them for the test.
And I know that the note position in the chord will affect the pitch I actually want to play, making adjustments in embouchure necessary. But I'm wondering if this is going to end up being more similar to a brass instrument than I had thought, in which essentially a different embouchure setting has to be used for every note!! I don't mean "move your whole face" but "adjust your lips" for every note. True? Somehow I had thought that once my embouchure matured and stabilized, that the pitch variation that I hear when 'just blowing' would settle down.
MA
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Author: doublereeder2
Date: 2008-12-02 03:48
This may sound odd, but you can "train" your oboe to a certain degree. Make sure you play those notes perfectly in tune with a beautiful tone and your oboe will "remember" how to vibrate on those notes.
For the sharp E, you might check to be sure the Bb resonance key is completely closed... might also lower the D key a tiny bit. If the out of tunedness persists, there are some excellent technicians who can fine tune the intonation of your oboe after it breaks in and settles down to where it is going to be. But in the meantime, try as best as you can to play these notes in tune with a lovely tone so your oboe learns what it should do.
And congratulations on your new Patricola!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-12-02 04:04
doublereeder2 wrote:
> This may sound odd, but you can "train" your oboe to a certain
> degree
Your oboe has no memory ... but you do.
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2008-12-02 09:29
training? remembering?
surely these are descriptive personifications, creative license?
... tonewood is wood that has physical properties particularly adapted to sound frequencies
it makes sense to me that producing sound frequencies inside a hollow pipe could compress the wood fibres enough over time to cause them to resonate a bit sharp or flat if notes aren't played in tune regularly
although it could be argued nobody's air turbulence is actually strong enough to do that to tough grenadilla
yet there remains the anecdotal recommendation to 'blow in' a new wood oboe, to 'train' or 'settle' the instrument, one could argue that's got nothing to do with the tuning as blowing in is done for totally different reasons
when we factor in heat and humidity, we know steam is used to shape wood, and we know that wood becomes more plastic and 'molds' faster in the presence of moist heat, and is more stable, rigid and resistant when it's kept dry
we all practice long tones which subject the wood to heat, humidity and prolonged vibrational compression at specific frequencies
experienced people tell us that definitely does something to wood over time, and if tonewood is particularly adaptive to sound frequencies, why couldn't it settle down to 'remembering' sound frequencies?
like A440, spot on :-}
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-12-02 10:34
vboboe wrote:
> experienced people tell us that definitely does something to
> wood over time, and if tonewood is particularly adaptive to
> sound frequencies, why couldn't it settle down to 'remembering'
> sound frequencies?
If that were true, we could buy instruments played by the masters and they would be spot on, not by the tuner (which is correct only in a particular situation), but one that is spot on when playing the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. of a chord. After all, they have a memory, and should be able to respond to the surrounding notes, too ...
Or I could buy an instrument played by the masters and be in tune with less work ... or buy that expensive Loree but since it was played by a not-so-good amateur it'll never be in tune ...
As to "settling down"- that I can believe, since the wood is going to go through some humidity/temperature cycles and the bore is going to change for some time.But settling down "in tune" ??? I wish ...
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Author: CherylS
Date: 2008-12-02 12:41
Great information here.
I checked the secondary e key as suggested above. I have a copy of McFarlands's Oboe Adjustment Guide. However his book does not actually say much about intonation. I used it to check the secondary e key using cigarette paper and it does seem correct. Just to experiment I tried moving the screw a little bit either way. That does change the pressure on the secondary key but made no difference to the pitch.
If I'm careful I can play the e in tune I just have to bring it down. I suppose if I practice that enough I'll get better at it when playing.
Thanks again.
Cheryl
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2008-12-02 14:22
Do you make your own reeds?
Try a reed that is a tiny bit longer than you are used to - no more than 0.5 - 1.0 mm. This may help with the E intonation problems. Longer reeds tend to be more stable, somehow.
(I found that this worked for me with a shape that was a touch slimmer.)
Regarding the forked F, you can experiment with the small screw on the bottom C touch. This may be holding your middle-finger touch down too close to the wood. (this adjustment screw is for altissimo C intonation and voicing, but intonation of E takes precedence, IMHO). Does it seem to open the same distance as the other keys? Also, the forked-f vent at the side of the instrument should stand fully open when you finger forked F. Is it stuck closed, perhaps? This can happen in cold weather with a new instrument.
J.
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Author: doublereeder2
Date: 2008-12-03 01:39
Author: Mark Charette (---.sneezy.org - ISP in)
Date: 2008-12-02 10:34
>Or I could buy an instrument played by the masters and be in tune with >less work ... or buy that expensive Loree but since it was played by a not->so-good amateur it'll never be in tune ...
Well, yes I think so to a certain degree - having played plenty of
instruments belonging to both groups.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-12-03 02:04
doublereeder2 wrote:
> Well, yes I think so to a certain degree - having played plenty
> of
> instruments belonging to both groups.
Magic instead of practice ... wonderful.
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Author: borris
Date: 2008-12-03 04:23
What really can affect the forked F, is a correct adjustment of the same small key between index and middle finger RH. It must be fully closed by pressing the D key. Try the same test (not a cigarette paper), now playing the f o r k e d F with index and 5th fingers and press upon the small key with your middle finger. Listen for changes.
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Author: hautbois
Date: 2008-12-03 13:09
To a limited extent, I agree with doublereeder2 -- it is not magic or wishful thinking. But I believe, as the instrument is blown in, that the nature and location of the vibrations has significant affect on the wood, in both the bore and toneholes. It seems likely that using extreme care in playing in tune can create a consistent vibration pattern in the bore and relevant toneholes and affect the wood, possibly in a beneficial way for your intonation concerns. No doubt there is a limit to the effectiveness of this long-term 'fix' process. It is at that time (and I suggested a year earlier) that one could consider tonehole or bore adjustments.
As for short-term fixes, in addition to the useful key height and screw adjustments recommended above, try not placing the bell completely on the middle joint, just putting it on enough for the Bflat lever to engage, and lengthening the entire oboe. This can lower the E (but may create other changes in your instrument's intonation). In doing that you may have to adjust the screws which affect the closing of the Bflat key and the resonance key (if you have one) on the bell. In addition to the adjustments which you should check mentioned by others, make certain that the Bflat resonance key is tightly closed when you are not playing Bflat. Although a floppy resonance key there will not raise the E (it can actually lower it, but in an undesirable fashion), it could affect the forked F.
And with any adjustments you make, check to see if you are favoring one octave of E and forked F over the other.
Elizabeth
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-12-03 13:23
hautbois wrote:
> To a limited extent, I agree with doublereeder2 -- it is not
> magic or wishful thinking. But I believe, as the instrument is
> blown in, that the nature and location of the vibrations has
> significant affect on the wood, in both the bore and toneholes.
> It seems likely that using extreme care in playing in tune can
> create a consistent vibration pattern in the bore and relevant
> toneholes and affect the wood, possibly in a beneficial way for
> your intonation concerns. No doubt there is a limit to the
> effectiveness of this long-term 'fix' process. It is at that
> time (and I suggested a year earlier) that one could consider
> tonehole or bore adjustments.
If you're changing an instrument (adjusting it) - it's not magic. If you think "playing it in tune" (whatever that means, since any good player automatically sharpens or flattens their pitch to make it match their ensemble and music), then it's "magic". Those vibrations are just that, and the instrument body hardly vibrates at all - the AIR COLUMN inside the instrument vibrates and "leaks out" to allow others to hear the sound.
If you're playing a new instrument carefully and listening for the intonation quirks then of course you're going to start compensating - and after a good amount of practice it becomes instinctive. It appears as if the instrument's intonation is better - but it's YOU]/b] who is better at playing with the correct intonation. Don't give credit where it isn't due - give YOURSELF the credit.
As you get better, your instrument selection will get better - what you listen for with "young ears" is going to be refined over time. Do the instruments selected by our idols play better than ours? Perhaps - but if that tendency exists at all it is because they select better instruments (or make different tradeoffs) than we do, not because they have "magic breath".
Maybe we would all like to believe that there's some magic involved ...
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2008-12-03 16:56
People used to accuse Paganini of having sold his soul to the Devil.
Just sayin'... ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
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Author: doublereeder2
Date: 2008-12-04 04:22
Mark Charette: " If you're playing a new instrument carefully and listening for the intonation quirks then of course you're going to start compensating - and after a good amount of practice it becomes instinctive. It appears as if the instrument's intonation is better - but it's YOU]/b] who is better at playing with the correct intonation. Don't give credit where it isn't due - give YOURSELF the credit.
As you get better, your instrument selection will get better - what you listen for with "young ears" is going to be refined over time."
So why is it that when the local high school gets a lovely new Loree and the not so great kid plays it for a year - it plays sharper and brighter?
As for instrument selection - hopefully we all improve our choices - but then if the oboe is not well played, it loses something. Just my opinion as a professional player and teacher of more than 30 years.
As for magic breath - yes, actually I am convinced my teacher did have that - as a result of years and years of his hard work ;-)
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2008-12-04 16:30
Quote:
So why is it that when the local high school gets a lovely new Loree and the not so great kid plays it for a year - it plays sharper and brighter?
Wow, where do you live, that the school district can afford a Loree for student use? Where I'm from, you're lucky if they even *have* an oboe available (usually a Bundy or Selmer), let alone a Loree.
ETA: ![[whoa]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie10.gif) <--- actually not blue but green with envy
Post Edited (2008-12-04 16:33)
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Author: wrowand
Date: 2008-12-04 18:50
When we play a good oboe player's instrument and it seems to play easily in tune, I think it's because he or she was very careful in choosing that instrument, and whatever intonation problems it may have had have been fixed to an extent that allows the instrument to play in tune.
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