 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: razafu
Date: 2008-07-25 18:03
Hello, thanks for the forum.
I have acquired an old Kohlert and Sons oboe, apparently rosewood, and it's in poor shape...however, it is not cracked in any place that I can tell. It is inscribed on the bell
V.Kohlert's
Sons
Groslitz
Czecho-Slovakia
262685
There is a stylized, five-point star engraved above the serial number.
The fingering system and keys are similar to the Rosewood oboe shown in figure 1 at http://acoustics.open.ac.uk/pdf/paper19.pdf
However, the bell is shorter and wider.
It will need new springs, corks, etc. and a pretty good working over to be playable. All of the keys and interactions seem to be intact (just need new springs and a good oiling and new cork, it appears.) My question is, how much can I expect to pay to have it restored? Will it be on the order of $1000 or more?
I haven't played the oboe in 20+ years, but now that I'm semi-retired I would like to "get my chops" back and participate in some local community bands and ensembles. This is a beautiful instrument except that it hasn't been cared for in many many years.
Thank you again for these forums!
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Author: razafu
Date: 2008-07-25 22:08
Update:
I spoke to a very nice gentleman who specializes in restorations of woodwinds, and he advised me that he had more than he could handle as far as restoring antiques.
He advised me that if I was inclined, I should try to restore the instrument myself (I have some limited training in instrument restoration, but not enough to be confident about this restoring this horn.)
If anyone has any references for oboe restoration, I would very much appreciate it. We agreed that this appears to be an oboe from the 1930-1940s era, pre-WWII.
I am most interested in restoring this horn to a playable condition.
I'm not interested in restoring it for profit, only for playability.
Thank you again for these forums!
Post Edited (2008-07-25 22:10)
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Author: razafu
Date: 2008-07-26 18:43
Hello again. I have left the horn to be restored with an estimate of $550 for restoration.
Considering that I paid less than $100 for the horn, I think that is a bargain.
The repairman inspected the horn for about 45 minutes, and was confident that it is playable after restoration. However, it will tune to the German higher tone (I think he said it appears to be tuned to a 445 A at 68 fahrenheit, as opposed to the American 440 at 72 fahrenheit.)
We discovered a small crack in the bell, but it shouldn't affect the playability we think.
In the meantime I have rented a Linton student oboe to get my embouchure back in shape (after twenty years of not playing, only a few minutes on the Linton has me worn out!)
Well, thanks again for these forums, they are very encouraging to someone of my age who is returning to music after a long absence. PS I'm best at playing the flute / piccolo, but the oboe is what I love to play (actually, the English Horn, but oboe is a close second.)
If anyone has any insights about playing a 445 (instead of a 440) I would appreciate it.
Thanks again for the website!
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2008-07-26 19:18
445 huh? Well you could always play some duets with a flautist. Just tell him you are tuned to 440 and you'll be okay :-)
Seriously though, there are pro reedmakers out there that can help a little. You'll need to ask for a reed to be made on a "long" staple, say 48mm or longer, and tuned below the normal C crow. You'll still have some intonation problems (some notes will be more out of tune than others), but it will help you keep in range.
If you have an oboe store nearby you should take it there to try some staples in the reedwell of the instrument, to make sure they fit without leaking (some old oboes have different diameter wells).
Your ISP says you are in Texas. Stephen Hiramoto of North Texas Oboe Reeds and cane may be able to direct you to a local reedmaker with whom you can experiment. Google for his website.
J.
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Author: razafu
Date: 2008-07-26 19:46
Thank you very much for the reference!
I'm a half-hour drive from Denton; the local music store here in Dallas referred me today to another UNT alum for lessons, and your reference led me to Stephen's website and some local information I had been searching for (with no success until now!)
Since I play flute also, I know exactly what you mean :-) just push in the cork a bit on that flute and we'll be ok :-)
Maybe with a few more years practice, I might be able to make my own reeds (my feeble attempts back in the '80s weren't very successful...I've always had to rely on others to make my reeds because I wound up butchering them--or my instructors from back then took pity on me and supplied a reed.)
Also, thank you for the suggestion about the reed-well of the instrument...I hadn't thought of that!
Thanks again!
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Author: razafu
Date: 2008-07-26 21:15
Thanks again for the reference.
I was a bit hesitant about my taking up the oboe again, but I am in good hands now.
Thanks also to woodwind.org for a great and informative website!
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2008-07-26 21:48
Hey, howdy, welcome to another renewbie :-)
... A-445 ... and at cool 68F? What's the average annual temperature of your geographical location, would that be above 72F or below 68F most of the year? That's the temp your oboe's going to be playing in, will make a difference to the physical effort needed to make it play in concert pitch all the time
doesn't really matter being in concert pitch when practising on your own this early on, unless you've got a teacher, different problems there, and playing in tune isn't physically easy to do when starting out anyway -- just getting to the point you can play long tones, scales and folksy melodies in tune with the oboe itself for at least half an hour is a major achievement :-]
but, if your long-term hopes are to join a community band or ensemble, you will need an oboe that is *easy* to play A440 in tune with them, and already the fuss, hassle and additional expense is facing you with getting non-standard longer tubes and custom-cut reeds -- please note, specialised overhead reed expenses every year could change the restoration bargain of ye olde Kohlert into a consumer's money pit, but if money's no object why are you settling for a bargain oboe in the first place?
for first year focus on getting your embouchure, air and fingers back into some kind of shape, and when your fingers can move fluently enough in 2 flats, better yet 3 and 4 flats (or sharps if you've got your eye on a predominantly string ensemble) and you know you've got enough chops to go the distance of your community musicians' regular practice time and you're ready to join up, it would probably be a good time then to upgrade to a modern instrument tuned to A-440, and use this old one as a temporary backup instrument whenever your 'best' instrument is in for annual maintenance or periodic adjustments any time
while you're retraining your embouchure, why pay lots of good money for short-lived reeds? You can't manage enough lip time yet, so a soft cheapo reed will collapse about the same time you do, and as you get stronger and can hold on longer, increase the strength to medium-soft and gradually work up to medium
why not pay economy prices for those awful commercial reeds just to get started -- they usually play flat anyway, so that might compensate A445 a bit -- and when you're noticing a significant improvement in your tone (even on those kind of reeds you can hear your tone refinements) sometime in the coming year, upgrade to better quality (more expensive) reeds then
at our advancing age it's horse sense to choose ways to make oboe easier on yourself [:-}
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2008-07-27 23:51
Seriously,
Your time and money would probably be better spent selling the Kohlert and trying to get another instrument off an internet auction site or some dealer. If the bore is THAT warped, or if it's pitched at 445, that probably means that it's built for a reed much wider and flatter than what is typically used today. Back in Tabuteau's day, they used to play at A=438!
Since the pitch is so much higher, it's going to make you compensate a lot in the mouth, the reeds, and the air, and you're new-found friend will soon become your worst enemy. Sticking with mainstream can at least you get started on the right foot.
By the way, Kohlerts are known to have had some of the best lower joints/bells ever. The Yamaha 841 was developed with assistance from Richard Woodhams (Principal oboe, Philadelphia Orchestra) who took a Kohlert bell used by de Lancie. I know a few people who would buy the instrument if you did decide to sell, just for the lower joint and the bell alone.
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Author: razafu
Date: 2008-07-28 20:47
Excellent points, taken to heart, especially in light of my first practice session yesterday on the Linton modern oboe I'm renting--the first time I've held an oboe in 20+ years.
I like to think that I was fairly proficient back in 1984 when I was playing christmas concerts and ensembles, but the honking I managed to honk out yesterday was very discouraging. I scared away all the birds in the neighborhood.
But I did manage a fair chromatic scale. It was difficult, and the variety of tones and sharpness and flatness I could conjure up varied from lovely to scary.
The oboe is a cruel mistress, and very unforgiving if you haven't courted her for twenty years.
The main reason I wanted the old Kohlert restored was that it appeared to be a vintage instrument with possibilities.
I played vintage instruments back in the 80s (both English Horn and Oboe) and the timbre to me (is timbre the right word?) of those horns was much darker, more haunting, compared to modern day instruments.
This Linton I'm using now seems very shrill and metallic; indeed all modern oboes to me have a shrill, sharp, almost metallic sound that I don't like. And too many keys!! :-)
It may be that this Kohlert horn is really "tuned" (or bored / keyed / etc.) to 440. There were Kohlerts made for the American market.
We just don't know yet--that was just an offhand comment of a clarinet player (pshaw! What does HE know!! :-) so I'm still taking that with a grain of salt.
It may be that it is bored to 440. We shall see.
Well, thanks again for you comments, and thanks for the forums!
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Author: razafu
Date: 2008-07-28 21:17
Hello, thanks for your comments!
I'm not sure what (if any) value might be in the bell (the bell has a very very slight crack in the outlying area of the wood at the bottom of the bell) but the lower joint (and upper joint, too) are in very good shape.
We still don't know the exact pitch of the instrument, whether 440 or otherwise.
There is still some debate about when the horn was made.
*I* think it hails from the late 50s or early 60s, just based on the serial number and comments from a horn seller from the 60s who used to handle Kohlert horns in the 60s.
But the key system (system 3) and the imprint makes me want to think that it might be a pre-WWII horn.
I'm dreaming, of course, I think it is a 50s or 60s model.
Funny story, one chap who compared it to a modern horn said, "There *are* some keys missing, you know."
To which I replied, "No, the keys are all there...just not the modern keys."
I think it might be tough to play....but what a sound it will make.
It should have a dark and luxurious tone.
Thanks again for the forums!
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Author: razafu
Date: 2008-07-31 22:08
I'd be surprised if the rosewood of the Kohlert's has a "brighter" tone than the Linton that I've been playing in the meantime...I've played wood flutes and piccolos, and wood oboes and english horns, and metal and faux woods, and I've always heard a darker, more full harmonics from the wood horns.
It seems to me that the lower harmonics come through better I think with the wood. I could be wrong, and my hearing might by aged, and my memory is shot too, just like my embouchure. I'm wanting to hear what I used to hear, I guess.
The Linton loaner that I'm playing is of the "plastic" type, I'm not sure of the material, some sort of resin (?!) but it sure isn't wood :-(
I got spoiled playing vintage woodies. Maybe it's just my ear, but the faux woods always seem sharper on the upper harmonics to me, and practically nonexistent with the lower harmonics as opposed to the woodies.
but harmonics is the least of my problems :-)
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2008-07-31 23:38
Forgive me. I did not mean Rosewood Kohlerts were necessarily bright. I meant that Kohlerts in general were brighter. I have owned a couple Kohlerts in the past, but they were both Grenadilla.
By the way, if your Kohlert is rosewood, and it's playing at 445, have you checked the bore of the topjoint? (Hold the reedwell toward a light source and look up from the tenon end. See if it has any microscopic curve one way or the other. Sometimes you can barely see one, but it can effect pitch quite a bit.) A rosewood instrument would be more inclined to warp, and this would certainly explain your pitch discrepancy.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-08-01 18:17
It's not uncommon for East European instruments to be built to 443, 444 or 445Hz, though they will play noticeably sharp surrounded by others built to 440Hz (though flutes tend to be built to 442Hz and most flute players will blow sharp as they go up anyway!).
If possible, compare your Kohlert with a French-style oboe (eg. Fox, Howarth, Loree, Marigaux, Rigoutat, Yamaha, etc.) to see the difference in both the length and tonehole placement.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: razafu
Date: 2008-08-16 18:20
Hello again everyone!
Thanks so much for all of your comments...they are very helpful!
Well, after a long wait, the report is that the oboe has been 98% restored.
They are putting some final touches on a few keys.
I haven't seen it yet, but the clarinetist who has seen it says...it is amazing how well it survived it's long storage, and it has cleaned up beautifully under the care of their specialist. I can't wait to see the Before and After pics!
No one has dared play it yet, though (afraid it might crumble after all this work?!) I think they want to give me that honor (or tragedy!)
Well, I will post the Before and After pics as soon as I get it (possibly next Wednesday! I can't wait!)
Well, thanks again for the forum and all of your kind comments!
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Author: razafu
Date: 2008-08-23 20:29
The horn is alive! and it is absolutely incredible.
The specialist who worked on this horn and restored it is a genius.
It looks brand new....new keys, new corks, the body has been refurbished (I'm still not sure if it is grenadilla or rosewood, and I'm not sure how to tell the difference...it is a very dark wood....the surgeon was not there when I picked it up....probably still resting after this absolutely amazing job.)
I played it briefly....it is definitely not as easily responsive as a plastic or faux-wood horn, but when it does respond, the tone is dark and haunting... the lower harmonics really speak. In the lower register, it sounds like an English Horn in the high register....and in the high register, sounds like an oboe should (that is, not shrill and tinny...but woody and dark, on a high note.)
I Love It!
As for it's responsiveness....I can easily play a faux modern horn, for hours, and not be tired in my embouchure. This horn takes a lot more effort to make it speak. Fifteen minutes, and my cheeks ache from the effort.
But the tone it gives is worth the effort.
Well....back to the music! Thanks again for the forums!
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2008-08-23 20:48
If you ever get a chance, try to put a old Loree top joint (D series or before) on to the lower bottom joint/bell. This is what de Lancie used to do.
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Author: GoodWinds ★2017
Date: 2008-09-06 08:06
It sounds like you're happy with the instrument, and that's important.
I recently bought a 'warped' old thing, and it plays great, little in the way of pitch problems. Take good care of it!
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Author: EaubeauHorn
Date: 2008-09-08 22:45
Have you personally checked to see if the top joint leaks? In my very limited experience, a leaking top joint will make an instrument hard to play in the way you describe.
A change in humidity can make the top joint leaky for you, when it was not leaky for the repairman.
EBH
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Author: razafu
Date: 2008-10-17 03:36
I might try that, but the keys on this old Kohlert are a bit ... different than one finds on a modern horn. I can't imagine fusing it with a different horn.
One chap told me that the low blow hole on this bell was intended to be covered by the kneecap for a low b-flat, but he's a clarinet player so I don't believe him.
I think there is an action missing that should cover that hole (it is WAY down on the bell on this horn) but the bell on this Kohlert is shorter than you would find on a modern horn.
This oboe is a quite curious, the keys are a bit different from a modern horn, but it has a wonderful, dark tone and as far as I can tell, plays just fine at A440 throughout all the range.
It has a wonderful tone and personality that, to me, is just beautiful. I wish I still had all my chops to really give it a workout, but it's going to take a lot of practice for me to really get the most of it.
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Author: razafu
Date: 2008-10-17 04:10
Well, I'm not sure...I think any leaks are from my old fingers not covering the holes properly...I don't think it "leaks", except when I can't keep it from leaking.
:-)
It really is a grand old horn, with a grandfatherly wooden tone to it (maybe because of its age?!) and it is certainly not a school or beginner grade horn.
Maybe in the hands of a pro it would speak like it should, but I like playing it just for the wonderful sound it makes (even at my poor level of skill!!)
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Author: D
Date: 2008-10-17 20:10
Now you have had it back for a while and it will have settled down, it might be worth getting someone who is a very good oboe specialist technician to have a quick play and determine if any pads have settled or any screws need a little tweak. Let's face it, anything that can be done to make these beasts easier to play is worth doing!
Are you going to post some pictures of your baby? I'd love to see it after all your descriptions.
Post Edited (2008-10-17 20:11)
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Author: razafu
Date: 2008-11-09 20:38
Thank you, D.
Yes, it has settled...and I have played it a bit.
It has a surprisingly easy response and a beautiful dark tone...on the other hand, the Treibert (sp?) fingering system, I think it is system 5, makes it a bit challenging to play.
It doesn't have all of the "bells and whistles" of a modern fingering system.
As soon as I have a digital camera available, I will post pictures of this restored beauty.
As best I can tell, it is vintage Kohlert Sons, Graslitz, circa pre-1938.
A great horn that I will treasure.
Thanks for the forums!
D
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-09 20:44
Is it thumbplate or conservatoire system (with ring keys) with semi or fully automatic 8ves?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: razafu
Date: 2008-11-09 21:26
Chris, it has the double octave keys, as well as a thumb-plate, and the keys are the ring-style keys.
There are two fingering holes that do not use keys (they are the holes that are to be covered by just the fingers, the left-hand ring finger and the right-hand index finger.)
I don't know that much about Treibert (sp?) oboe fingering systems so I'm not sure how exactly to describe it.
I will post a picture as soon as I can get an image of it.
It's a nice horn, but I'm puzzled as to why it is approx. 1.5" shorter than a modern horn.
The bell is shorter but wider than a modern horn.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-09 21:47
When you post photos, put a modern oboe (any make) alongside your Kohlerts for comparison.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: razafu
Date: 2008-11-09 21:57
Will do, I hope to have the photos posted within the next few days.
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