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Author: claire70
Date: 2008-07-30 19:59
Arrrrggghhhhh.... I have just almost thrown my reed-making bag (with contents) across the room and burst into tears of frustration....
My teacher has set me the task of tying on three reeds for my next lesson (a week on friday). I had done some for the last lesson (with difficulty) but she told me off that the thread wasn't tight enough and I needed to keep more tension as I tie. But I'm darned if I can get the bl**dy sides to close up. This was a problem before but seems doubly so now I'm trying to increase the tension.
I know in theory that I'm supposed to jiggle the cane around on the staple - but if I jiggle it so it closes up on one side, it just opens up more on the other side instead. And everytime I jiggle, I lose the tension on the thread that's wound already.
Help?!???!
(And as for doing the knot at the end... But let's deal with one thing at a time.)
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Author: johnt
Date: 2008-07-30 21:06
Hello Clare,
Well, we've all been just where you are. So don't beat yourself up over it. You need to ask your teacher to establish with you what the optimum tie length is for the shaped cane & staples you have. For now, try lengthening the cane on the staple about a millimeter at a time, trial & error. I suspect you are probably tying too short. If you have been trying to tie at 72 mm. or less try 73 or even 74. Instead of jiggling the cane, hit & miss, try simply lifting or pushing the cane away from the side that closes first. The ultimate goal is to have the two sides close at the same time a wrap before the one that puts the thread at the top of the staple but no farther. Make sure that the cane is oriented on the staple. The axes (x & y) of the oval at the top of the staple must match the axes (x & y) of the cane. The way to do this is to sight down the flat part of the mandrel handle. The end of the cane where the fold is should match the planar surface of the mandrel handle. If the cane is off kilter, it needs to be straightened on the tube before proceeding. Then the cane must be straight up, not cocked to either left or right as you look at the reed. All this must be done before you cross the thread over & begin wrapping down towards the cork. Tying is a task which must be mastered before scraping begins. There is no future in trying to scrape a reed which is not closed on both sides all the way from top of staple to tip. It will surely leak. Fishskin or teflon tape are emergency measures to be used as a last resort. If you are not having success after following the above procedures, then I would suspect that the cane you are using is faulty, either not shaped properly or warped to some extent, precluding its closing in a proper manner. Ask your teacher to walk you through the steps on Friday. It is paramount to get the cane positioned first before applying constant tension to the thread.
I use a fist size wooden dowel, 4.25 inches long & 5/8" in diameter. I find the spool too cumbersome. I measure 42" of FF thread, apply beeswax & then lay one end of the thread in the slot of a round headed screw & wrap the thread about a half dozen turns around the screw shank. Then I take the other end & wrap it around the dowel. The screw is in a plank anchored to my reed table by two C clamps. I think you will find it much easier to maintain proper tension using this method. If you wrap your reeds using the spool, much of the tension is lost by the thread burying itself in the wraps on the spool. With the dowel, of course, there is none of this.
Email me <gtowle839@sbcglobal.net> or call me (1-831-484-2316) if you want to discuss or clarify any of the above.
Best,
john
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Author: oboesquirell
Date: 2008-07-30 21:21
i have only been making reeds for 3 years now, so i have been in your situation recently. what i do, is i measure the length with the staple and madrel and cane. then i mark the side with a pencil to know where to start the thread. then, after my string is tied to my table, i wind 3 loops near where the pencil mark is, make sure it is pulled tight enough to hold the cane on the staple. then i center the cane by rocking it from side to side while keeping the tension from before. after it is centered, i do the crossover wrap and wrap[ down to the bottem. the knot i use is very simple. i put the mandrel with reed in between my knees. i take the spool in my left hand, and with my right hand, i place 4 fingers on top of the string, rotate my hand clockwise towards the ceiling forming a loop. the just slip it over the can and down at the bottom. i usually do 3- 4 of these knots. waxing the string also helps alot. hope this helped...
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2008-07-31 00:24
Marking the 47mm mark on the sides of the cane is a great way to make sure you don't overtie.
Another trick I've seen Germans and some Americans do is to take a small piece of reed cane (maybe a foot or less?) and tie a loop around the top of the cane so that it closes by itself, and keeps closed, but is still light enough so that you don't crush it. That way, you can gently set it on the staple, and take your fingers away from piece of cane and just hold on to the staple. It does make it a bit easier.
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Author: oboedrew
Date: 2008-07-31 00:39
Don't despair, claire70. Tying a good blank is, in my experience, one of the two most difficult parts of reedmaking (the other being the final tip adjustments). First tidbit of advice: don't rush anything. Many beginning reedmakers mistakenly feel that tying up a blank is a sort of elementary step: something they should "just get" very quickly, so that they can move on to the real reedmaking. Not so fast! Tying up a good blank is a complicated task, and many oboists' efforts at the later stages of reedmaking are undermined because they rushed through this crucial first step. So take your time, remain calm and collected, and measure EVERYTHING once, twice, even a dozen times, just to be certain.
Now, we'll need some more specific information about your tools, supplies, and methods in order to give any potentially accurate diagnoses.
What kind of cane are you using?
What is the gouge?
What is the shape?
What brand of staple?
What length of staple?
How close to the end of the staple are you trying to get the thread?
How far from the end of the staple does your first wrap begin?
What overall length are you aiming for (from one end of the finished blank to the other)?
Do you wax the thread before or after tying the blank?
Are you right-handed or left-handed?
Which hand holds the mandrel/staple when you're tying a blank, and which hand holds the spool of thread?
Cheers,
Drew
www.oboedrew.com
Post Edited (2008-07-31 02:29)
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-07-31 00:55
I took a page from german reed makers and use a drinking straw. Cut off about 2or 3 mm from the straw. Slide this plastic ring over the small end of the shaped cane. It holds the cane aligned while you place it on the staple. It makes it easier for me. I just tried this for the first time on English Horn reeds. I just left the straw on there and wrapped over it.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2008-07-31 05:01
oh yes, yes, yes! tying on so the sides close up properly is definitely the most troublesome hassle with tying cane ):-]
make sure cane piece is adequately presoaked long enough , there's nothing so discouraging as wrestling with the tying on only to have the cane crack on you, so make sure the cane is really soft and flexible enough for tying on to start with
check all your tubes, do they really fit the shape of the mandrel ? Look at the end of your mandrel and compare that to the shape of your tubes, is the tube a tiny bit rounder in shape (at the cane end) than the mandrel?
reshape the tubes around the mandrel if they're too 'open' -- just a tiny change to a more elliptical shape rather than a wide round oval makes it a lot easier to get sides closed
i don't have much success with jiggling the cane after the thread's turned over it, i find it works marginally a bit better to align the cane spaced evenly and then hold it firmly in place with left fingers
what works well for me is to use left arm as a 'rigid' muscle with firm wrist to lock left forefinger & thumb firmly on the cane once i've got it lined up straight, with evenly spaced sides, etc.
when i take up the slack after the first turn, i pull my body slightly away from the anchored end of thread, using my body weight to tighten and hold that lower thread tight, and this allows me to just use my left arm / hand muscles for the job of gripping cane in place on the tube
i start 4-5mm below top of tube, work up to 47mm and then cross back down again, i've found this is more 'idiot-proof' against cracking than starting right at 47mm and working down
i always take my time on the first 4-5 turns, one turn at a time, inspect alignment and spacing, if slipped, fingers aren't holding cane firmly enough in place, unwind, readjust, start again -- so holding cane firmly in place is the important bit during these first turns
each turn, taken slowly, and pulled taut gradually until thread bites the cane shapes the cane bit by bit around the tube, so continue turns one by one to top of tube, of course maintaining adequate optimum tension
when the cane is snugly shaped to the tube gradually, the sides should close by the time you're up to 47mm, although often it's only the last turn that does it
when attempt #1 doesn't close the sides
unwind that bit, * turn the cane over * realign everything, start again
make sure firm tension is maintained steadily for each turn over the cane after taking up the slack, not too much, don't want to break thread
i find a shortish thread measured from the bobbin hand which turns over the cane is easier to keep tight, about 6-7" from the cane, the longer you have to reach away with right arm the harder it is to keep thread tight all the time
i find it easier to turn a shorter thread over cane if i angle left hand up a bit rather than keep it horizonal
when attempt #2 doesn't close the sides
ease cane up the tube to a longer tie-on length, say a generous 74mm, and remember to take the last wrap only to the top of the tube, so watch out for those 'lengthened' pencil marks !
when attempt #3 doesn't close the sides
stop, put cane into hottest hand-hot water that's comfortable, dip tube end in hot water also, and when nice and warm, set everything up to go again,
hot cane molds more readily
when attempt #4 doesn't close the sides
stop and analyse your physical technique, maybe you still feel awkward with managing the thread, maintaining the tension, etc. so instead practice with substitutes awhile until it feels more instinctive and natural before trying to tie again
hope some of these ideas help
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Author: claire70
Date: 2008-07-31 06:40
Thanks for the replies. (Drew, those questions are soooo detailed I don't even know the answers to all of them!)
I'll give it another shot when I'm feeling brave enough. If I still can't manage it, I'll get back to you... (and try and tackle Drew's list).
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-08-01 04:01
If you try the drinking straw you'll find it much easier to tie the reed on. With the straw band holding the cane you are much freer to concentrate on the tying process. Keep it simple.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2008-08-01 07:57
A small length of drinking straw is very helpful! I just wrap the top half of the folded cane in saran-wrap/cling-film to get the same effect. It creates a tight vee of cane that grips the tube and tends to centre itself.
An advance on the same technique can be seen with the invention here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpBJL3w17vM
The advantage is that the contraption holds the blades all the way up, and even props them open a little. European reedmakers do not cross the blades, so this little gizmo is probably worth its weight in gold.
The website is all in French, but there is an offer there for oboe teachers to call in order to get a couple of these on 15 days' free trial, to encourage sales to their pupils. I suggest you point your teacher at the website. You can autotranslate in babelfish, which is pretty neat.
http://f.rousson.free.fr/leguideroseau/
J.
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2008-08-01 17:31
piece of drinking straw as cane guide, eh? now that's a really neat idea
... great little gadget in demo on youtube, hm ... well, until a beginner can actually wrap with experienced confidence methinks fumbs and thingers aren't quite dexterous enough to use it, but it sure looks like a fantastic time-saver after that, and it's certainly 'esthetically' nicer to start the wrap at 47, one day i might get there with seasoned confidence
couldn't quite see how he knotted off using the mandrel to finish tightening the knot, i notice the underneath thread is folded up through the wrapped thread, although i'd prefer to take the thread all the way down to the cork ... which reminded me of ... (memory snippet follows)
when i first did reeds 'way back then, we made a loop and placed it down one side of the cane sides, the loop end hanging down to bottom of cork and the tail end hanging off towards the fold end of the cane; size of the loop large enough to pass thread bobbin through easily after wrapping down to bottom of tube
to start the first wrap (at 47) had to pass the bobbin under the section of this loop that pointed down to the cork (rather than section of thread pointing up to the fold) and 'hitch' it exactly at 47 (top of tube) -- this had to be done back to front (opposite direction of wrapping) to anchor it when going over and away to wrap as usual down to end of exposed tube
then pass bobbin through the loop section to begin the finishing 'knot'
make a hitch with the thread tail (hanging towards fold end) above that knobby bit on French-style mandrel, pull tight (knob holds it in place) and hold loose end of thread secure around mandrel knob with thumb & forefinger, really give a heave-ho on the mandrel to pull the loop all the way up right under the wrap, preferably up to the juncture of cane and tube, snip ends
this method, no tied knot needed, and unravelling? what's that?!
even as a youngster i really found this method an enormous time-wasting cussable hassle just to get the first wraps started and secured exactly at the mark for end of tube (sometimes in desperation i filed a little notch in the sides of cane at 47, just to catch & hold the thread)
pulling the thread under a tight wrap without letting it loosen up isn't a piece of cake either
... and now my fingers are older it's even more of a hassle ... (end of memory snippet) ... so i like the easier knotted method now
Hey, while on youtube checking that out that cane-guide gadget just now there's an amazing comedy demo film en espagnol about cutting a playable reed, it starts out seemingly real enough until you first see the knife and after that it's a jaw-dropper -- what a great yuk-yuk (with considerable amazement) for *advanced* reed-makers -- beginners, do not attempt actually doing any of this !
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-08-01 19:11
Wow, after watching the french demo I was shocked how the thread is attached to the arm of a chair! Certainly there are better ways.... I use an adjustable clamp that easily attaches to a table....it is spring loaded and coated so it doesn't scratch surfaces. There is a trigger to tighten it. Other methods?
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2008-08-02 02:50
other thread anchors?
1. put foot down, well protected in shoe
2. 8" length of wood dowel thread handle tucked into creases of seated pair of centred knees, leg weight = anchor, thread handle stores easily in portable, travelling reed tool kit, and no, don't wind any thread on it first
Tie double overhand knot to make loop of suitable size to fit over shoe or thread handle, slides off easily afterwards, no cutting needed
Anchor thread doesn't need to be uptight, just able to take the strain
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-08-02 21:39
An interesting video is Northrumbrian Chanter Reed Making....You can see he binds the tip end with thread so it is held on the staple right from the start. Not the same as oboe reeds but interesting to see how this is approached.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2008-08-03 06:54
Kerry Willingham on the reedmaker.com website has a whole series of great videos on reedmaking; He also has two about a reed wrapping machine (I think, perhaps, from Pisoni?).
http://www.reedmaker.com/Wrapping.mov
Now it is obvious that most players who make reeds just for themselves will not need the wrapping machine. Take a look at the video anyway, since there are a couple of useful innovations.
1. Tie-length gauge
This little contraption can save much fiddling around with rulers, calipers and the like. permanently fix a 15cm steel rule to a raised foot of some type. The steel rule should project 74mm (say) from the foot. Now, to ensure correct tying length you just use a flat edge, such as the base of your block.
2. The thread anchor
The simplest and best thread anchor I have ever used. It is a slotted screw that is mounted on the side of your workbench. Put the thread through the slot and hold the loose end tightly on the top of the workbench, then wrap two or three wraps around the shank of the screw, over the tightly-held loose end. Advantages:
o Anchor uses very little thread
o Quick and easy to use
o Once you cut off the reed, removing the dead end is trivial
o You don't end up with a massive untidy lump of dead threads
3. Tying off
Kerry snips the loose end very soon after he has wrapped over and down. He ties using what looks like a clove-hitch and then comes the clincher: He coats the thread in Minwax Polycrylic. That way, even if the knot does begin to come loose, the wrapping will not and the reed is still safe. It also seals any gaps between the threads.
I use clear nail-varnish for the same purpose if I suspect a leak from between the threads or if I forget the beeswax.
All good stuff!
J.
Post Edited (2008-08-03 07:12)
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2008-08-03 14:19
So interesting to see, and read, the differences in what people do for the basic mechanics of reedmaking.
My first teacher had a manual reedwinder based on a pencil sharpener. Not as fast as the electric. He started the wind right at the end of the staple, and never did any crossover, and, consequently, neither have I. I keep on meaning to try the crossover thing, just to see if it makes any difference, but my reeds work, so it's hard for me to imagine any benefit other than conformity with what everyone else does.
It is funny to me to see the emphasis on ergonomic efficiency of that last video and then see him cut the anchor with a scissors AFTER he's loosened it! It seems so much less efficient than just snapping it with a knife while it's still taut.
I can see the use of the varnish to prevent an unwinding if the knot fails, but I don't think it's going to prevent any "leak between the threads," because I don't believe that there is such a thing as a "leak between the threads." If the cane isn't set on the staple tightly enough to prevent air from getting to the outside of the staple, the whole thing is going to be useless for all sorts of reasons beyond just leaks.
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: claire70
Date: 2008-08-03 16:38
Well, I had another go this afternoon. Results:
1) 1 piece of cane which snapped in the middle of the tying-on struggle
2) 1 reed tied on but even to me it looks too loose and I'm sure will go in the reject pile!
3) 1 reed tied on and looks more or less acceptable. I'm still worried my teacher will think my tension is still too loose though :-( I'm really having trouble with that!
4) 1 sliced finger (being careless when cutting the thread)
I've now run out of cane so I'll have to go and buy some more. But the fact that the 3rd one was better than the 2nd one does already give me a glimmer of hope....
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Author: johnt
Date: 2008-08-03 18:14
Don't give up, Clare. That's the most important thing. With each reed blank tied you will notice very small incremental improvements. Eventually, you will wonder how something which, at the outset, seemed so difficult could wind up (pun intended) to be so easy. It took me a few years until I got to the point where I could feel comfortable with my tie-ons. I showed a few of them to John Mack. His comments over the course of two or three of his Carmel Valley (California) master classes: "Nice tie." I knew then that I had nothing more to worry about, especially after other people in his master classes asked to see them.
A further suggestion: soak your cane in the hottest tap water for 25 to 30 minutes. The cane should drop like a stone once you disturb the surface tension. You will avoid more splits this way.
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2008-08-04 00:25
Maybe he was just commenting on your neckwear? ;-)
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2008-08-04 05:11
I agree with the "soak well" approach. I tie on in batches of five or six, and if I get any splits it is almost always the first or second one of the batch. Soak longer than you think you need to.
IF you thin the ends (and this is NOT necessary, but just aesthetically pleasing), consider thinning the cane from the inside. Don't remove the bark at the extreme ends, but remove the cane from inside, as in the photos here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jhoyla/sets/72157604776789114/detail/
I experimented doing this at the suggestion of one of the list members, and it works a treat. you only need about 3 mm of thinning. Take care when scraping, you don't want to cut your fingers.
The secrets to good tension are:
o A sturdy anchor
o A spool that is easy to hold. A piece of doweling is perfect for this, and if you put a nail in the end you can then use an electric screwdriver to wrap many yards of thread onto your dowel, effortlessly (a bit like wrapping a bobbin for a sewing machine).
Practice pulling on the thread until it snaps (yes, really). Twang the thread as you go, so that you hear the sound it makes at various lengths, and how high-pitched it can get before it snaps. This will give you a lot more confidence in how tightly you can wrap.
While wrapping, the tension in the loose end is NOT important, and often this is the part that snaps. You can even push the mandrel away from you a tiny bit as you pull tight with your wrapping arm, to make sure the tension is in the correct part of the thread.
Keep the wrapping end short, only extend the the thread from the dowel a little at a time, as you need it. It is easier to maintain high tension when the thread is short.
Hope this helps,
J.
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Author: johnt
Date: 2008-08-04 17:34
Right, Mike. Good one. But I don't think so. The uniform of the day at these things is t-shirts & shorts. Nice to know that another oboe geek has a sense of humor, though. Keep those cards & letters coming.
Best,
john
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-08-04 22:47
Well Claire, what have you learned so far? After approximately 4,000 words of advice what are you doing differently?
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2008-08-05 02:56
<<My first teacher had a manual reedwinder based on a pencil sharpener>>
could you explain this some more? i'm imagining one of those classroom sharpeners ... ?
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Author: claire70
Date: 2008-08-05 06:35
<<Well Claire, what have you learned so far? After approximately 4,000 words of advice what are you doing differently?>>
I think trying to explain would be like that anecdote about the centipede - as soon as he tries to work out how he walks with so many feet, he falls over... And the good (or at least, better) one might have been a fluke! So: I'm not sure yet. Let me tie a few dozen more and I'll get back to you...
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2008-08-05 12:54
I'll add to the 4,000.....try this.....make a pencil mark where the end of the tube is on the cane. Make the first few wraps further down the cane than normal, approximately 7-10 mm. Instead of wrapping the thread rotate the reed to make the thread come closer to the pencil mark. Start close to where you anchored the thread or you will end up half way across the room. As you rotate the reed check the reed position and shift the reed accordingly. I still suggest using a drinking straw band over the cane. It holds it on there so you can measure etc and makes the whole procedure less awkward.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: mschmidt
Date: 2008-08-05 15:10
Well, that was a loooong time ago. Yeah, it was a classroom-type sharpener But I just remember it was an old pencil sharpener (old at the time, 1975--I do remember him saying that the newer pencil sharpeners wouldn't work, thanks to the fact that they didn't have the right kind of shaft) with a mandrel welded on to the shaft in place of where the sharpener mechanism usually went. The thing could be clamped to the desk with a c-clamp, and the clamp then also served as the anchor point for the initial winding. He'd put 5 turns of thread on before putting the thing on the winder.
Mike
Still an Amateur, but not really middle-aged anymore
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Author: claire70
Date: 2008-08-06 06:48
Well, I did some more tying on last night - with a new batch of cane. And wow! What a difference!! It was sooooo much easier with this cane. The sides were almost closed after the first turn already!
Can anyone explain to me what would make such a difference?
I feel my control of the thread is generally getting better too. Something to do with getting the hang of where to put the pressure on it at which moment. My knots still leave a little to be desired, though! :-(
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2008-08-06 18:35
... yes, i've found that some batches of cane are more troublesome to tie than others
methinks bulk storage of multiple bundles of shaped pieces piled carelessly on top of each other, especially at the un-informed general commercial retail end of the line (oboe specialists know better) ... this may be a likely cause for some distortion of the pieces, especially if they stay in a jumbled position for quite some time before somebody buys them
drying with some cane warping at the production end is probably also a cause -- i'm guessing that would happen when the cane isn't cut flush straight with the grain -- folks who make their own from tube cane can probably elaborate on that?
if you have several bundles, recommend you store them comfortably in a suitable small oblong tin (tin better than cardboard box) so they don't rattle around, lay each bundle on its side, folds all one direction, i line my tin with some paper towel at the bottom, and a little on top holds them secure, but padding mustn't be so thick that lid presses down hard on them when closed
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Author: cjwright
Date: 2008-08-07 07:13
Sometimes when sides are too thin, they'll bend and warp, and not keep a straight line as they're supposed to. This could have contributed to your problem.
Also, sometimes the sides get too thick and not easily bendable. When buying store-bought gouged cane, this is more often the case (because the more you gouge, the first thing to dull is the side of the blade which causes thicker sides gradually).
As I blogged about recently, 50% of reedmaking is just getting the right darn gouge curve.
Blog, An Oboe In Paradise
Solo Oboe, Thailand Philharmonic Orchestra
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