 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: cowtime
Date: 2008-01-07 00:13
As some of y'all know, from the "new and lurkers" thread, I bought a very very used old Armstrong oboe last week just to see if I can get back into playing after a 36 year break. If this goes well then I'll start the fund for a good one. Admittedly I've forgotten most of the little I knew back in the day. This horn I got is in very rough shape, as to be expected at the low price, but it plays after a fashion. I realize that more or less of the problem is also me.
Well,I've got a question. I've read on here about checking the pads using cigarette papers to see how well the pads close.Some of the corks are in pretty bad shape. I used the papers and the only ones that are hard to pull out are the pads that are directly pressed under my fingers and the lowest pad on this oboe(right above where the bell attaches). With all the rest, when I press the key to lower a specific pad the paper slips with various degrees of ease from a light pull to practically falling out without a pull. Is there anything I can do to correct this? I'd rather not pay someone to work on it since this horn is really not worth it and I have no one that is really knowledgeable about oboes in my rural area . I would like to get it into decent playing shape on my own if I can. I figure if I can learn to adjust on this one it will be worth it as a mechanical learning tool if nothing else.
Oh, and an update- although I am torturing the husband and dogs, I'm still having great fun and more determined than ever. I'm anxious for my Fox reeds to get here to see what kind of change that will be from the awful reed I have now.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2008-01-07 04:12
There are a few basic oboe adjusting tips on several sites on the Web. You might try a Google search. I've never found anything very comprehensive about oboe adjust on these sites, but I have picked up a few tips here and there. I have some bookmarked, but I am just plain too tired right now to search them out for you. I'll do that tomorrow.
Edit: OK -- here are some links to free info about oboe adjusting. It may be worth what you're paying for it, so just use this as general guidance:
http://www.oboesforidgets.com/tips2.htm
http://www.oboehouse.com/images/OboeAdjustmentGuidebySeaton.pdf
http://www.csinstitute.org/content/pdf/Oboe_AV4330small.pdf
This last link is about reed adjusting, as far as I can tell. It is a charming site, though, and one I hadn't stumbled upon before (I found it 10 pages into the Google search on oboe adjusting -- going deep here).
http://oboe.webseason.net/reedm/reedm5.html
The most accessible (i.e., if you can read, you can figure it out) oboe adjusting guide that I know of is by Carl Sawicki. Lots of us use it. Last I checked, Gary Van Cott of Van Cott Information Services (a board sponsor) had copies of it for sale. Look in the right-hand column --------> under "Music & Books" to find Gary's url. Here's a link to Van Cott: http://www.vcisinc.com/oboe.htm Same price as at RDG (Dutchy's post, below).
Good night, all.
Susan
Post Edited (2008-01-07 18:56)
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2008-01-07 14:01
Just a thought: since it's not an oboe that you care about very much anyway, perhaps a bit of experimentation? Disclaimer: I have never tried this myself, but...they do sell sheets of cork and cork cement for repairs. It's a lot cheaper than spending $60 on a set of oboe pads, and as I said, since it's just an old junker that you don't care about anyway...
"Sawicki" means this book here. Amazon.com does not carry it, so yeah, it's 22 bucks. Or you can call him direct and order one from him. He has his address and phone # in the front of the book for that reason.
Carl J. Sawicki
P.O.Box 101
Fredericksburg, TX 78624
(830) 997-1994
There is also 3/4 of a page of basic information on adjustment in Robert Sprenkle's classic, but not much, and if you're intending to really roll up your sleeves and get down and dirty with your Armstrong, I'd go with Sawicki.
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Author: cowtime
Date: 2008-01-08 01:11
Thank you so much for taking the time to provide these links. They are most informative. Yep, gonna have to get the Sawicki book. I'm still hacking away at it- I got to G on top of the staff and am getting those notes pretty consistantly. My D is another matter to work on- along with everything else.
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Author: cowtime
Date: 2008-01-08 01:18
I sure appreciate the links. Yes, it looks like the Sawicki book is a necessity in my case. As a farmer, I have no aversion to getting down and dirty but I'll wait until I get the book to really dig into this horn. I agree- I just might try to re-pad it myself. I don't have a lot to loose and I have a whole lot to learn. this oboe might just be a valuable teaching tool in more ways than one.
edited to add: I just ordered the book.
Post Edited (2008-01-08 01:35)
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2008-01-08 04:12
You'll need either an eyeglasses screwdriver, or one of those micro-mini-screwdrivers, depending on the size of the screws, as even a razor blade is usually too thick to fit in the slot.
The Dollar Tree usually has those micro-mini-screwdriver sets.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-01-08 11:48
The best screwdrivers are ones that have been adapted for the job. A long screwdriver with the blade ground to around 2mm across the tip, and then hollow ground on both sides to fit the screw slots (as well as hardening and tempering it) will be ideal, provided you can make or adapt your own tools. Screw head slots can be recut (deeper and wider) and the heads cleaned up with a file, emery paper and polished or burnished to a mirror finish (if they're stainless steel) or if they're mild steel (or silver steel) they can be tempered blue after being polished.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2008-01-08 13:40
Quote:
A long screwdriver with the blade ground to around 2mm across the tip, and then hollow ground on both sides to fit the screw slots
The micro-mini-screwdriver sets I'm referring to fit the bill. No need to manufacture your own tools, Cowtime.
Wal-Mart and places like Menards and Lowe's have them, too, it's just that if you can find them at the Dollar Tree, they only cost a dollar.
I don't think Cowtime is interested in burnishing up her junker Armstrong, just in getting it to playable condition. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2008-01-08 13:51
It all depends on how tight (or otherwise) the screws are, and the condition of the screw-heads.
My advice would be to get a high-quality set of screwdrivers with double-hollow ground blades and a freely rotating cap. You need a screwdriver that fits the slot in the screw-head as tightly and exactly as possible, and you only need to make this purchase once.
If the screws on the Armstrong are very tight and have been attacked in the past with one of those 1 Dollar screwdriver sets, the screw-head may need the sort of treatment Chris describes, as well.
J.
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Author: cowtime
Date: 2008-01-09 00:04
Thanks for the advice on screwdrivers.
It was like Goldilocks and the Three Bears"- only make it greylocks and the three screwdrivers.
The first one I tried was too big.
The eyeglass one I have is a hair too thin and short.
Then I remembered the one that I use on my sewing machine-
Just right!
Thank goodness, I had visions of myself with my husband's grinder trying to "fix" a screwdriver to fix my horn.....
I'm anxiously awaiting my book to seriously attack this horn. The few screws I tried are pretty tight.
And, while I really don't care if it looks good, I figure while I'm at it I might as well try to get it in the best shape I can, so thanks for the polishing tips.
My book was shipped today so maybe it won't be too long in getting here.
For some reason(and I need to rule out poor adjustment/pads) I can't get the half holed fourth line "D" to sound at all. Notes above and below I can manage, just not this one.
Post Edited (2008-01-09 00:15)
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2008-01-09 05:02
If the low D will sound, then there's gunk in the half-hole opening in that left-hand index finger pad itself. Mine does this sometimes, too. You have to get a hairpin or a safety pin or something and poke it around in there. It also helps to get a small paintbrush and dust the lint balls out from the tonehole.
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Author: cowtime
Date: 2008-01-09 23:39
I cleaned the little hole on the half-hole key. Funny, I checked that and poked around in there before I read your post. One thing I noticed while looking in there with an intense light - there is cork or something that makes the hole actually smaller than the metal hole opening. Is this my problem? Cork in the way?
I also have problems with the low D sounding. I did get the fourth line D to sound after a bit of poking around but it is really iffy. I know it's probably me too.
Yesterday I noticed that my lips felt like they were sunburned. It was only later that I realized what must be causing that feeling! It seems that my mouth is wearing out quicker than it did initially last week. I'm hoping that it's due to my trying to get notes sounding in tune rather than just getting them to sound at all.
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Author: Dutchy
Date: 2008-01-10 03:24
No, that half-hole key is supposed to be partially closed off. Mine has what looks like gray plastic doing the same thing as your cork. It's got a big metal tonehole, but actually only a tiny pinhole opening. In order to get the D to jump the octave, one needs to break up the air column inside the oboe at a certain point by providing a hole (it's a physics thing), but the hole only needs to be *this* big, but the pad itself needs to be of a uniform size with the other pads, for ergonomic reasons. So they close it off a bit with cork or plastic.
It's such a tiny opening that it's easy to get a few molecules of gunky lint in there, and then it can't offer the air column an opening at that point at all and it won't jump the octave and you can't get the D2 to play.
But if the lower D is problematic, too, then it's an adjustment problem, all those teeny screws and springs and things. Good luck with that. ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
If you use Chapstick for the lips, wipe it off before you play, because otherwise it will gunk up the pores in the reed.
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2008-01-10 11:05
There is a whole lot of advice about fixing the "D", in the thread "Wierd Reed" that went on about a month back. There is a tricky balancing act between the F# tone-hole cover (just below the RH 1st finger), the forked-F vent (if you have one), the F tone hole cover (2nd Finger RH) and the E tone-hole cover (3rd Finger RH). Make sure everything is sealing here, as described in that thread, using fine cigarette paper.
Also, there is a vacuum test you can do for the middle joint. Seal the bottom of the joint with either a finger (if yours are big enough, mine are) or the palm of the left hand. With slightly dampened fingers, finger bottom "C", close the "B" cover with a finger of your left hand, and try and suck a vacuum from the top of the joint. This is a little tricky, but possible once you get the hang of it.
If air keeps hissing in, you have a leak somewhere.
J.
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Author: cowtime
Date: 2008-01-13 18:42
New question folks-
I got my Sawicki book and adjusted several screws on this oboe and it's playing better. I have been unable to budge the screw#8( the one that might possibly have something to do with the action of the pad under it- raised by the L or R hand key used for G#/Ab.) That pad is not sealing enough to even hold the test paper and I need to get it right.
Any good tricks out there for loosening a screw? Or fixing that pad?
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Author: hautbois
Date: 2008-01-13 19:00
cowtime -- my understanding is that screw #8 is the screw which holds the G# pad down when you are playing F# or lower, particularly when the G# key is also being depressed. If you cannot budge the screw clockwise to tighten it, as a temporary measure you can glue a piece of cork or leather, or even try electrical tape, on the top of the G# key to help raise that surface meet the screw #8 sooner, and create a snug closing of the G# pad.
If the G# pad does not close securely even when the right hand finger #1 is not depressing its key, then you might have a problem with the G# pad being too thin or being irregular, or with a spring being engaged or being strong enough to hold the pad down. Take a look at the spring which is at the bottom of the rod under the left hand G# key to make certain it is engaged and functioning securely.
Elizabeth
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2008-01-13 19:55
I don't have the Sawicki so I'm not sure which screw you are talking about. If Elizabeth is correct, and if the pad is not closing when you are not depressing either of the G# keys, you do indeed have a problem that easily explains the absence of your "D" note!
"screw #8" - if it is he - may solve the problem of the D notes. However it should be closing enough to grip the cigarette paper without this. You still have a problem.
The actual G# key on a conservatoire system is sprung open; The "return" spring is the spring on the little left-hand pinkie-finger key. Which cannot be removed (usually) without taking out the G# key itself.
There are several possibilities, nearly all of which involve removing the G# key. I do hope Sawicki explains this procedure well!
1. The pad (which I assume is white, and not cork) is no longer functional but all the keywork is okay - in this case, you need to remove the key, replace the pad, "float" it or sand it flush with the crown of the key.
2. The hinge is all gunged up with years of oil residue - remove the keys one by one (unhook the springs before removal), clean out the tubes with a pipe cleaner and a fine oil, clean the stainless-steel rod also, and then re-insert the keys one-by one engaging the spring hooks as you go. DON'T FORGET the LH Pinky key rod, tube and spring once you have removed the G# key!
3. The springs are unbalanced. Test this with a sliver of cigarette paper where the pinky-rocker and the G# key mechanism meet. You may be lucky - can you disengage the pinky-key spring without removing the key itself? if so, you may be able to tension it a tiny bit and then engage it to try again. Be careful not to break the spring - it's tiny!
Good luck,
J.
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Author: cowtime
Date: 2008-01-14 00:10
Yes y'all are talking about the same key I'm talking about.
When I depress the F# key it does "lock" down the little key that is opened by the left and right hand G#keys but it has very, very little "pull" when checked with a paper. When I depress either of the G# keys by themselves they raise the pad but it does not seat enough to even hold the paper at all when released. Since I can't turn the screw any more to the right I guess I'll have to try to build up the top of this key as suggested.
And as they say on tv, "but wait, there's more"- if I were to play say G# and then release, the pad stays up enough for me to slip the paper under there at the front of the pad(which is white). Is this what you described below? It definitely does not go back down as much as when pressed down by the F#.
jhoyla wrote:
> The actual G# key on a conservatoire system is sprung open;
There's no visible "gunk or stuff around the spring. I cleaned that stuff off with one of my artist brushes as soon as I brought it home. Whew, I hope I don't have to take this thing down. And it's nice to know, in a way, that the horn may be keeping me from playing my Ds and Ebs and not just me.
edited to add, there is much less tension felt when depressing the left G# key than the right. I have a sinking suspicion the spring plays a role in this.
Post Edited (2008-01-14 00:18)
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Author: hautbois
Date: 2008-01-14 15:47
Cowtime -- there is one thing you need to be careful about if you build up the top of the G# key to permit the bridge from the middle joint (which has the frozen scew #8) to close G# securely: too much build-up will prevent the F# key (right hand first finger) from closing securely. So, as you are building up, keep checking the seal when you close F#.
And it sounds as though you could have either the spring problem or an irregular pad (or both). If fiddling with springs does not help, take the instrument to a repairperson for a new pad (and while there, have him/her adjust it and look for other problems).
You have my admiration for taking on the adjustment of an oboe when you are without prior experience on the instrument. Learning how to perform the basics of oboe adjustment can be both fascinating and greatly beneficial for future playing (particularly when something goes amiss in the middle of a performance).
Elizabeth
Post Edited (2008-01-14 15:47)
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Author: jhoyla
Date: 2008-01-14 19:17
I think I catch the gist of your question, and why my comment about the G# key being sprung open has misled you - my apologies!
Obviously, the end result must be that the key stays down, and goes up only if you operate one of the two G# keys.
The mechanism by which this is achieved is with two springs, one weak, that springs the key open, and a stronger spring on the LH G# cantilever that keeps the key closed.
Before taking the instrument apart, you can try oiling both parts of this mechanism with a tiny drop of oil at each end of its hinge. If this is not effective, then, with a spring-hook (there is no easy substitute for this) gently unhook the spring from the LH G# cantilever. Only do this if you see that there is enough clearance UNDER the cantilever tube for the spring to come all the way down and round.
Once the spring is down and round, you can try and give it a bit more tension so that it closes the G# with more force. Do this with great care, since over doing it can weaken the spring or even snap it off. Finally, gently maneuver the spring back into place and see if this has improved matters.
One final thought; Skin pads (the white ones) are very effective, but have limited life. They are made of felt covered with a very fine skin, which will crack with age. If you do have to take your horn back to a repair person to fix your G#, get him to clean up and regulate the whole mechanism, replacing any pads that look worn or cracked. It is worth the extra cost - just think how much more time you will have for playing!
J.
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Author: cowtime
Date: 2008-01-14 22:00
After reading your post, I oiled every working spot that I could find on this oboe. There was little to no increase in pad pressure on the G#- it's still not closing well unless the F# key is pressed. I really suspect the left G# spring even more now. It has the least pressure of the two(left and right).
Looks like a spring hook is next on the"stuff to get" list....and pads. When I say they are white, I mean they were white sometime long ago. I'm controlling the urge to take it apart since there's the very real possibility that I might not get it back together again. As it is, I can play the notes I'm learning with the exception of D and Eb.(is this little pad the culprit? ) I know I can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but I hope I can make it as good a sow's ear as possible, and learn a lot in the process.
As for more playing time- at this stage(11 days) my mouth gives out quicker than my interest, so I've got time.
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Author: cowtime
Date: 2008-01-14 22:09
Thanks for the heads up on building up that G# key top. It's probably a combination of spring/worn pad on the G#.
As for admiring my trying to learn to do this stuff myself in spite of my ignorance of oboes, it's part desperation, part curiosity, part challenge.
As Pope said- "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread."
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