 The Oboe BBoard
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Author: claire70
Date: 2007-12-01 14:44
I was browsing a reedmaker's site today that I haven't seen before, and they referred to American and European embouchures being different (hence the different styles of reeds). Is this really true? I've never heard of it before. Surely an embouchure is an embouchure?
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Author: d-oboe
Date: 2007-12-01 16:56
Technically the embouchure only works one way - it controls the opening of the reed, and stops air from leaking out the side.
However, those who play on short scrape reeds (usually europeans) tend to pull their lips further in than those playing long-scrape reeds.
One isn't really better than the other, but the more the reed is tucked into the mouth, the less flexible the tone becomes.
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2007-12-01 18:16
<<However, those who play on short scrape reeds (usually europeans) tend to pull their lips further in than those playing long-scrape reeds>>
... hm, yes i think that's what i was doing in my first 18 months or so, it was a revelation to roll my lips out and play just the reed-tip in front of my teeth instead of firmly between my teeth, which meant most of my lip flesh was rolled over teeth and tucked behind them. This muffled my sound considerably, just blowing lips forward increased decibel level immediately
my memories on u-scrape was more reed in mouth with a generally firm 'bite' on the junction between scrape and bark areas for mid register, loosen the bite pretty much for low D down, with some roll-out too
going up, had to increase air pressure for high A to high C, rollover a bit more, add more bite and some overblow above that -- but maybe my student u-scrape reeds back then were as 'bad' as beginner commercial reeds are here
i'm finding american style reed is less reed in mouth due to the way it's cut, and more notes are playable in that position, including up to high D and maybe Eb, but 1st 8ve high E and up needs rollover into heart and a little bite for me to get those upper notes, early days maybe for me on that yet
... or my reeds still aren't cut quite right yet
so, to summarise embouchure differences i've experienced so far, i think Brit embouchure (of 30 years ago) was somewhat firmer on U-scrape but also had to be more mobile for roll-in and out, whereas on A-scrape a looser embouchure stays more in the same place with less mobility in lip rolling up and down the reed
as a transitional compromise for my two embouchure styles in culture shock, i find A-scrape reeds with broad back windows and a thinner heart smoothed finely into blend work for me at the moment
hm, it might be informative to observe and study the actual mouth profiles of oboists in various countries, compare to the overall frequency in similarity of lipline in that particular country's dominant cultural group
for instance, thin-lipped wide mouths are quite frequent in Britain, and fuller lips are quite prevalent in America, so perhaps this may have a lot to do with preferences for reed cutting and embouchure playing styles?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-12-01 22:10
(ouch. wrong forum. please delete or otherwise punish with disregard)
--
Ben
Post Edited (2007-12-01 22:13)
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Author: claire70
Date: 2007-12-02 19:00
Thanks for the comments, I have learnt something! So, out of interest, how will a European person sound if they try and play on an American scrape, with their normal embouchure? I ask because I was contemplating getting some American-style reeds over here (GB), to see whether I like them.
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Author: vboboe
Date: 2007-12-02 20:32
claire70, thank you for your positive response, i was taken aback and really unsure how to interpret ttt's posting which is very ambiguous, was i being flamed, or being directly reprimanded, or would it be more appropriate to feel regrets for ttt's (deleted?) remarks being tsk'd by the editor, or did ttt edit out with regrets ...?
to your question ... suggest you get a sampler trio, one of each strength in soft, med-soft and medium, can test each to find which works best for you right away and go from there
... the reed timbre is definitely different, the softer ones don't always sound too good, mediums generally sound better and more 'american'
i still find those too resistant (too woody) for me at the moment, so be patient and work into yours
... have to get adjusted to using relatively light lip pressure on just the tip most of the time, but like any reed there's an individualized optimum position and embouchure pressure for getting sweetest tones out of it
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-12-03 00:23
Clare, I think you'll still sound British playing an American long W scrape reed as you'll still be making your sound with your embouchure, though you may find the American scrape reed does some things better/worse/different to the European U scrape. It's best to try it out to see how you get on, though as with oboe reeds, it's an expensive thing to do. For a while I used an American scrape Fox cor reed - it looked fairly crude, but it was dead easy to get on with.
It's like clarinet or sax players with several different mouthpieces, all with different tonechambers - you can still tell it's the same player from their sound even though they're playing on a different mouthpiece. They may feel how one mouthpiece compares to another, but anyone listening may not hear much of a difference, even if the player finds each mouthpiece plays slightly differently.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2007-12-03 14:33
There is a terrible misconception on this topic and it is interesting to think of the historical background that has caused this mishap, though i can't say for sure who started it. European reeds doesn't equal difficult to play or less flexible, same applies to the embouchure. Common sense accounts that, considering the availability of a good reed that VIBRATES, the thicker the heart, or too much rail on the sides of the scrapes, will encourage a more open reed and thus more lip strength required to control, and that itself has pros and cons.
I know a professional English Horn player who absolutely BITES her reed on oboe and has reeds with scrape lengths less than 10mm for oboe and she sounds absolutely incredible, beautiful sound, spot on intonation. According to her, it was a bad habit that even her conservatory teacher has never bothered to correct, but anyhow, the method of playing that she has developed is almost note-cracking proof, proving that the player matters more than the reed, though she of course, admittedly, like every oboists in the world, wants good reeds to start with!
To elaborate, the variety of reed styles in Europe is incredibly vast. The Dutch play on very wide but short length reeds that are incredibly free blowing thus the embouchure has a very slight frown look and firm but not tight embouchure and aims to let the reed vibrate freely as much as possible. The now "International German-French-English-Dark-Sounding-though sometimes too dark" way of playing aims to produce a super responsive reed that sounds warm and full, though the new French school favours a more resonant sound. More details on the older schools of playing is famously elaborated by Alan Vogel in one IDRS article which i hope is still accesible on the society website. Though it is said that the oboe sound has been much homogenised these days, i still find it quite a remarkable and unique thing, as to me, everyone still sounds so different from each other.
Another misconception is that we take in more reed in the mouth. That mght be true for some or little but definitely does not represent the majority of European style oboe players. I have observed that most European players do roll in slightly and REALLY, i mean slightly, for high A onwards.
To prove another fact personally, today, i bravely experimented on one of the American scrape reeds that i bought from K Ge, and played on it for a rehearsal of Vaughan William's 2nd symphony on 1st oboe. NO ONE could tell the difference, not even players from my section until i revealed so to them, and the reed worked quite well! Gulp..fortunately....
Regards,
Howard
Post Edited (2007-12-03 14:34)
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Author: nobo
Date: 2007-12-21 11:47
-Reviving an old topic-
I've recently changed from American scrape reeds to European ones (don't know which kind).
It's very different, I get tired much faster and to continue playing I bite/choke my reed which i know is wrong but otherwise i get terribly flat...
also I have a question about the durability of the European reed. how long should a reed last? because I've had American scraped reeds lasting two months but I seem to destroy these reeds in a week or less, is this normal or is my embouchure/something else just wrong?
destroyed reed=stops crowing and doesn't vibrate.
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Author: claire70
Date: 2007-12-21 13:43
> I've recently changed from American scrape reeds to European
> ones (don't know which kind).
> It's very different, I get tired much faster and to continue
> playing I bite/choke my reed which i know is wrong but
> otherwise i get terribly flat...
Possibly stupid question, but are they too hard?
> also I have a question about the durability of the European
> reed. how long should a reed last? because I've had American
> scraped reeds lasting two months but I seem to destroy these
> reeds in a week or less, is this normal or is my
> embouchure/something else just wrong?
>
> destroyed reed=stops crowing and doesn't vibrate.
Never had that problem, my reeds usually last 2 months or more. I don't think it can be anything intrinsic in the scrape of the reed! Have you done all the usual reed resuscitating tricks? (ie. testing for being too close / open, scraping in various places...)
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2007-12-21 18:40
I have the same feeling with Claire as in regard of these matters. I am also suspecting that the opening is way too big, causing the flatness and lack of vibration. If "pinching" the reed, rendering the opening much smaller doesn't improve vibration, try and define the scrape a bit more, making the the U (or W depending on the type of scrape you use, yes, there is a W scrape in short scrape reeds if someone is curious.) clearer. One can also
scrape a bit from the back starting exactly at the the point of the begining of the scrape to lighten and improve response. If all fails, lengthen the scrape bit by bit, but this is risky, considering that the reed is flat.
Hope this helps!
Regards,
Howard
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Author: nobo
Date: 2007-12-21 22:38
Hmm...How does closing the opening make the reed vibrate better? (When I played on American scraped reeds if it wasn't open my sound would be very small and I'd have a difficult time blowing into it.)
and the reed isn't hard, when I get it, but a week afterwards it becomes very hard...
I'll try closing the reed tomorrow and see if it helps.
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Author: HautboisJJ
Date: 2007-12-22 16:22
It just might be that the opening is TOO big, and this is in fact a very personal thing. Some people really "bite", so they need reeds with a slightly bigger aperture. I was taught to really relax so i use reeds with smaller apertures, but still, this is very personal and it's difficult to say exactly how big or small is correct. I don't know where your source of European reeds come from, but if you buy from Ke Xun, his reeds are exactly how you describe them to be, initially free and then becoming harder day by day and then you would need to define the scrape, smoothen the tip - lay area and etc to free the reed. I have to, almost always, pinch closer new reeds (Do it while it is very wet and never the bark!!! Doing it with a plaque is also safer.) to make them more playable and responsive.
Howard
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Author: johnt
Date: 2007-12-22 17:40
Yes, good to see this exchange here. I use a steel bellied plaque to refine the tip of my oboe reeds & then to get the last fraction of a mm thickness off & it's only .01 mm or .02 mm (less than the thickness of a human hair) I switch to a bellied wooden ebony plaque. Oboe teachers tell you never to do this. A general statement. John Mack was emphatic about this. He would never allow his students to use contoured plaques. Au contraire, I find that it is so much easier & faster to use the contoured plaques at the tip refining stages & almost guarantees that there will be no splitting of the tip when you get down to .10 mm or less which is what the tip requires to ensure that the rest of the sculpted reed vibrates properly. Anyway, with this as a lead-in to this thread, after the tip is scraped to where I want it, I pinch it shut "on water" that is I put the reed in water for a second or two & let capillary action work, then dip the plaque in water, insert & pinch front & back. Kerry Willingham has an excellent video on his reedmaker website which shows exactly how to do this. The reed closes down to playable status with no leaks. I can't speak for the European scrape, this may or may not work, but for the long American scrape, I get reeds which play fine & which generally last through three or four days of practice/rehearsals/concerts. I should also mention that the pinch is only after I get each blade fully scraped. I only do this once (heart & back), however. If I need to do a second time I only pinch the heart & always on a flat plaque (wetted) with a soaked reed. The reed MUST be wet to do this.
http://www.reedmaker.com/Squeezing.mov
Best,
john
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Author: Phil Freihofner
Date: 2007-12-31 09:38
nobo wrote:
> Hmm...How does closing the opening make the reed vibrate
> better? (When I played on American scraped reeds if it wasn't
> open my sound would be very small and I'd have a difficult time
> blowing into it.)
>
> and the reed isn't hard, when I get it, but a week afterwards
> it becomes very hard...
> I'll try closing the reed tomorrow and see if it helps.
Hi -
A reed will not play unless it closes momentarily in its vibration cycle. If the cane is too stiff or open, it may have much difficulty reaching the "closed" point in the vibration cycle, in which case you won't get any sound out of it.
Yes, if the opening is too small, it is hard to get very loud. One has to figure out how to balance these aspects.
I suspect that the reeds you are getting were tied and scraped in a single sitting, a single day. Freshly cut cane absorbs water and this makes it stiffen up. It usually takes a while for new cane to become stable. It is better to space out work on a reed over several days so the cane has a chance to reach a more stable state. But this is just a guess as to what is going on about the stiffening.
Phil Freihofner
Composer/Oboist
(I work at Forrest Music part time, but opinions expressed here are my own.)
http://adonax.com
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